mynameismatt Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 I'm wondering if there is any agreement on what paints provide a good SEA camo? I've used Model Master acryl in the past, and wasn't impressed with the medium green and light green. They blended together to much and it was hard to differentiate between them. You can see in the picture below. Your Preference? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ivan-otter Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 I'm wondering if there is any agreement on what paints provide a good SEA camo? I've used Model Master acryl in the past, and wasn't impressed with the medium green and light green. They blended together to much and it was hard to differentiate between them. You can see in the picture below.Your Preference? For once I can help out!! Please allow me. I am busy on the hasegawa - 1/72. RU 504. Is that also yours? VERY disapointing Hasegawa that one, but we will leave it alone. Others have pointed out it came with the ark. Now, I did a nice little F-5 in SE camo. I used the Tamyia X-52 first. That created the sand coloured base. It is listed as "Red Brown" on Stockholm, and as "Flat earth" on Tamyia. I found that the Humbrol 118 (Red Brown) was not close enough to the pics that i have (thanks to a lot of people here!) managed to get hold on. The convesion chart also lists Humbrol 119 for that, but it doesn't look "right". Then I used the Humbrol 116 and 117 as per the Stockholm colour conversion chart. True the two green's are close, but the Humbrols are more distinctive I found. I looked at the mixing table for the tamyia and gave up (sic!). As you said, they are very close and the mixing business is bound to go wrong. Here is the link: http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/s...orcharts_fs.htm Good luck! Ivan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DonSS3 Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 Actually, that lack of contrast is pretty prototypical (on a freshly painted aircraft). You might try using the Modelmaster paint for most of the camo, then switch to another manufacturer for one of the greens. The manufacturers may label them both as FS 34079, but they will be slightly different. This may help you achieve the look you want. My favorites are Modelmaster Enamels and Xtracolour enamels. You might try the Xtracrylix version of Xtracolours, although I don't know how they compare to the enamels. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jwest21 Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 I substituted Model Master Marine Corps Green for Dark green and was pleased with the results. Much better definition between the med. green and the darker green. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
andrew.deboer Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 I used Model Master enamels and was really happy with the result. They turned out like this: In the future I'd like to use Tamiya paints but I haven't taken the time to figure that out. This really is a crappy picture; I've been meaning to take some better ones but the model is in the display case at my local hobby shop. Time to go pick it up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scotthldr Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 I always use Xtracolor Enamels and for the SEA scheme I go with X110 FS14079 Forest Green Vietnam(Darker Green) X115 FS14097 USMC Field Green(Lighter Green) X102 FS10219 Vietnam Tan(Lightened with X145 FS20400 Tan) I use X116 FS14102 Green Vietnam-Euro1 for post shading. Bear in mind that if your flat coating the model as well, the finished contrast will be different. Before Flat Coat After Flat Coat It all depends on how worn you want the finished article to look HTH Scott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
andrew.deboer Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 Scott, I just excreted a perfect scale model of a brick. That's one of the most beautiful Phantoms I've ever seen! A great example of scale in paint and details. Major props! I'm not an emoticon user, but this one gets a Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 You're making the very rash assumption that all SEA colors were the same, and they weren't (on the real airplanes). I've seen a whole rainbow of colors purporting to be SEA camo. So the answer to your question is, it totally depends on what you're modeling and what you like. You really can't be wrong... J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thegoodsgt Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 Good point, Jennings. Even with a set of paints that perfectly match the real colors, I would definitely vary them from one model to the next to avoid the appearance that all of my SEA-painted models came out of the same paint shop at the same time! It's that kind of variation that I most enjoy about painting and weathering models. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jay Chladek Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 Well the thing is, I've always understood the greens to be medium green and dark green, not light green and my experience with the Testors MM Acryls is their acrylics match the enamels practically dead on since they use the same pigments. Of course, indeed there have been variations in SEA colorings due to how they weather in the field. Most of the color variation I've seen though tends to be with the dark tan (more like a light brown then a tan) fading to more of a lighter tan shade over time as opposed to fading of the greens, based on what I've seen in photos. Of course, I imagine a lot of that has to do with if the plane is able to stay out of the sun under cover or not in the Vietnamese summer (and the quality of the paints applied and if they were field applied or from the factory). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J.C. Bahr Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 I substituted Model Master Marine Corps Green for Dark green That's what I use as well. You're making the very rash assumption that all SEA colors were the same, and they weren't (on the real airplanes). I've seen a whole rainbow of colors purporting to be SEA camo. So the answer to your question is, it totally depends on what you're modeling and what you like. You really can't be wrong... +1 and my experience with the Testors MM Acryls is their acrylics match the enamels practically dead on since they use the same pigments. Really? I've had the exact opposite experience over the years. I've compared bottles of the MM Acryl to the MM Enamel for Dark Green many times and have never been happy with the attempts that have been made with Acryl... not near as dark or pronounced as the enamel version IMHO. This alone has always kind of jaded me with the whole Testors brand as it's really annoying that they can't get a fairly well known and well used color correct between two lines that only differ in their kind of thinning medium. Would be nice if there was some other brand to come along and knock them off their high perch, but unfortunately they keep buying up all the competition here in the U.S! :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
UKPonchoMan Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 SEA seems to be one of those schemes that varies wildly - I've noticed that the dark green can go from almost black to quite a light shade depending on the aircraft in question. I guess it also depends on where it was painted and what batch of paint was used?? In terms of model paints, I've tended to stick with Xtracolor, although the current formulation seems to be pretty poor - the dark green is so thin it's very difficult to mix properly, and the lighter green is very grey. Model Master is not much better and although I've not tried it yet, the current best bet seems to be Precision Paints, which is now reformulated and sold by a company called Phoenix here in the UK. I'm not a fan of acrylic so cannot comment - despite many attempts, I've never been able to spray it properly!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F4DPhantomII Posted December 3, 2010 Share Posted December 3, 2010 And don't forget about the sun's bleaching effect on the different colors.On the F-100D and F-4D's I worked on in the Phillipines even the underside 36622 camo gray looked like flat white. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ivan-otter Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 I found these. It somehow shows the very slight difference on the 2 green's: w From airliners. Now, I would call it SEA, but maybe it is European camo instead? That I am not so sure about now. Yours, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ivan-otter Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Matt, this is the best one I can find. The difference in the green's is nearly as you have it. w It probably still shows a lot of variations as also pointed out by others. Ivan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 Scott,I just excreted a perfect scale model of a brick. That's one of the most beautiful Phantoms I've ever seen! A great example of scale in paint and details. Major props! I'm not an emoticon user, but this one gets a :D +1. Great job... I've always had a hard time getting SEA colors to look "right". You nailed it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 (edited) Well the thing is, I've always understood the greens to be medium green and dark green, not light green There's the problem - you're using names. The colors are supposed to be FS 34079, 34102, and 30219. There are no names, relative values, or anything else assigned to those colors. Just the number. When you start assigning random names or values to them (light, dark, medium), you're bound to have confusion. If you go by the FS numbers, there can't be any confusion. Now, as noted above, just because they're *supposed* to match those FS standards doesn't mean they always *do* match them, but that's at least the starting point. As for photos you find online, BEWARE!!! And the older the photo, the more beware you should be. In about 15 seconds in Photoshop I've given the same photo posted above a totally different look. Then in the rectangular area, in another 15 seconds, I gave it yet another look. It's the same airplane shot at the same time, with the same camera, and the same film, yet I've made it look very different. There are so many variables in photo reproduction (zillions of them) that you simply cannot make definitive conclusions on colors from photos found online. It's just not possible. I'll give you a 100% guarantee that the top surface colors in this photo are standard (as standard as the USAF ever gets) SEA colors of 34079, 34102, and 30219. J Edited December 5, 2010 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ivan-otter Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 There's the problem - you're using names. The colors are supposed to be FS 34079, 34102, and 30219. There are no names, relative values, or anything else assigned to those colors. Just the number. When you start assigning random names or values to them (light, dark, medium), you're bound to have confusion. If you go by the FS numbers, there can't be any confusion. Now, as noted above, just because they're *supposed* to match those FS standards doesn't mean they always *do* match them, but that's at least the starting point. As for photos you find online, BEWARE!!! And the older the photo, the more beware you should be. In about 15 seconds in Photoshop I've given the same photo posted above a totally different look. Then in the rectangular area, in another 15 seconds, I gave it yet another look. It's the same airplane shot at the same time, with the same camera, and the same film, yet I've made it look very different. There are so many variables in photo reproduction (zillions of them) that you simply cannot make definitive conclusions on colors from photos found online. It's just not possible. I'll give you a 100% guarantee that the top surface colors in this photo are standard (as standard as the USAF ever gets) SEA colors of 34079, 34102, and 30219. J That, Jennings, is probably as close to the truth anyone can get. True enough the FS colours are 34079,34102 and 30219. The big quest is to then go for humbrol, Tamaya, etc, etc, and get an "acceptable" a/c out of it. The colours would fade, blend, etc etc, so it probably boils down to perceptions again. Ivan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trietmcam Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 I also noticed the FS34102 to be a little on the bright side. It looked like it was a little toward olive tone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rocky Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 (edited) I have used Testors "Tan" in the small square bottle to substitute for the brown FS 30219. It better matches the printed photos that I have. Its lighter, and I think its about right for a sun faded airplane. The Model Master 30219 seems much darker than the pictures that I have seen. And it is true, I have gone crazy painting SEA camo and not being able to tell where one shade of green begins and another ends. Sometimes it looks ok, but sometimes... Edited December 7, 2010 by Rocky Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jay Chladek Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 BTW, speaking of SEA, were the RAAF F-111Cs painted in the same FS tan shade as USAF F-111s? Reason I ask is many of the pictures I've seen of the jets show the tan shade being a little lighter then typical 30219. Its not just internet photos either as I've seen something similar with printed photos in some books. I plan to do an Aussie Earth Pig in my future and I prefer to do one in the original colorscheme as opposed to the gray one. Just curious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Babalugats Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Random thoughts & observations: 34102 changed a lot over time IMO – from an almost true light olive green in the 1st gen SEA scheme to a muted mid-green in the 1970's to a rather bright true green in the Euro I scheme. Re the 30219 in RAAF F-111Cs – I'd chalk-up its apparent “lightness†to either Australian's local sunny climate or its local paint manufacturers. One thing to keep in mind is the type (not colour) of paint being used and how the medium's chemical composition reacts toward the ambient light. Think to RAF Green in the 1970's and how much it changed visually in just the move from epoxy based paint to acyclic based paint despite both being to the same colour standard. One of the reasons I heard that the F-111s retained SEA colours for so long is that the type of paint specified could not be matched readily in other colours. I wonder if this is true? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
toadwbg Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Great discussion! Reminds me of those WW2 RLM color discussions only more civil Goes to show, i'n the modern day we still have a lot of variation i'n aircraft paint colors exists just like it must have back i'n WW2. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
airrex Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Agreed, very good info here. I have a stack of US Vietnam era aircraft to build. Airrex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ivan-otter Posted December 7, 2010 Share Posted December 7, 2010 Indeed, this has surely been an "eye-opener" to me in terms of all the quality info coming out of a rather simple question. Any RLM WWII discussion could be too exciting, agree. There is another aspect to all this: Which paint to use? What is the difference in paint type between Humbrol and say Tamayia? Although they may both list the same FS number, there could be smaller differences. I looked very carefully at the tamayia vs Humbrol and decided on Humbrol as I perceived the difference in the green's as slightly more pronounced. I used the Tamayia as the 'tan" - flat earth. slightly darker than the corresponding humbrol, but looks 'better' to me and is not too far from the pics. And the pics have a rather big range even on this colour. It probably boils down to perception and personal preference. Yours, Ivan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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