PGB Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) OK, here we go... This primarily refers to those B-17Gs which had PFF equipment installed before delivery to the 8AF and 15AF, rather than those converted in theatre. The majority were in the 42-97500 to 42-9800 and 44-8000 to 44-8999 serial ranges, which cover Lockheed-Vega production blocks B-17G-15-VE to B-17G-90-VE. Arrival in the ETO began at the start of 1944. A relatively small number of Boeing- and Douglas-built B-17Gs arrived with the same PFF modifications during the second half of 1944, but the overwhelming majority of known PFF Forts were Vega-built. Operator's position, starboard side of radio room: NOTE: Where it says Air Temperature Gauge on the repeater panel, that's actually an ammeter or voltmeter. I haven't gotten around to updating the image. :) The equipment is fitted roughly midway back from the bomb bay bulkhead, behind the existing tuner units. The starboard window can be seen behind the Computer outlined in blue. In most cases the operator's seat was the same as the radio operator's seat, the "office chair" type. Radome mounting (retracted) and associated equipment. Note the cage around the scanner and the raised floor which required the aft radio room door to be trimmed significantly at the lower edge. The new flooring arrangements varied quite a bit, as did the positioning of the different extra "black boxes" in the aft section: Radome mounting and associated equipment (42-97947 SC-U 401BG): Radome in retracted position (44-8258 IY-A 401BG): Radome in operating position (44-8259 IY-K 401BG): Although not of the greatest quality, this image does show the trapeze and radome top plate with it's associated bracketry quite well. Note it's fully extended and that the modulator and other equipment racks are empty. The floor support framing shows up well too: The 78xx contract number on the radio room bulkhead puts it in the 44-8401 to 44-8500 serial bracket (B-17G-65-VE) Edited March 6, 2011 by PGB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) On the back wall of the radio room, behind the radar operator's seat, was the radar camera. This was a standard K-24 strike camera fitted with an extension tube at the end of which was a radar scope repeater. Once again, there were variations in how this equipment was actually mounted. The following photos also show details of the operator's chair and the aft door/raised flooring modifications. Basic vertical mount by the 381st Bomb Group from October 1944. Very cramped vertical setup by the 91st Bomb Group. They've left the radio gear on it's rack, and the photographer has even had to remove the radio operator's chair to take the picture. (It's been shoved through the doorway) Another vertical installation by the 91st, much more room now the radio gear has been relocated. This shot clearly shows the raised floor level, and the hand crank for raising the scanner radome: And a final, oblique, installation from the 91st: Note the same oxygen feed/blinker/intercom/rheostat panel is used in each case, albeit in differing locations. Edited March 6, 2011 by PGB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Moving up to the nose, the main modification was an ILS repeater dial fitted on the upper starboard interior by the bombardier's position. During the bomb run, coordination between the visual bombardier and the radar bombardier was generally verbal, as the electronic connection from the radar equipment to the Norden bombsight wasn't successfully brought into service until the last few weeks of WWII: The two rows of three rivets for the ILS mounting bracket can be seen in this photo, above the forward window. The four rivets behind them are for the bomb loading information board: Something often seen in photos of PFF Forts is the removal of the cheek guns, the apertures being plated over. This can be seen in the photo of Snooper above, and more clearly here on this late-war example: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Onto external items now... Almost every photo of a PFF Fort shows at least one pair of SCR 718 radar altimeter antennae under the wings. The fitting of a second vertical antenna on the fin is also noted in a number of cases, from the latter end of 1944 onwards: 42-97627 42-97600 Believed to be 44-8812 44-8789 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 More double upper antenna images: The next two examples are seen on aircraft operating on Project Casey Jones, the radar survey of western Europe in the 45-46 period. In both cases the additional mast is the aft of the two. B-17G-80-VE 44-8785, originally "Crack Up" of the 457th Bomb Group at Glatton before being transferred to the 305BG on May 23rd, 1945. Wartime photos of this aircraft show no additional mast installed. B-17G-80-VE 44-8796 KY-F "Laura" of the 305th Bomb Group. Both images are from Robert Hutson's collection of photo's belonging to his late Grandfather Norman LeRoy Hutson Sr., who was with the 305BG during Project Casey Jones. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger74 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 PGB, A couple of your pictures have answered something I have always wondered about....how does the aircrew find their parachutes in a burning spinning airplane, or if they are blown free at 20,000 feet! Now I see that they had them hooked on straps. Definitely helps with peace of mind. Oh yea, the radar stuff is cool too. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Black boxes and other H2X gubbins. All these items are currently held by the NASM, so I've included the relevant archive numbers. Top: Antenna Assembly AS-18A/APS including Dish APA-14, Rotating Joint CU-18/APS and Transmitter-Converter RT-15A/APS-15. (NASM A20070042000) Bottom: Modulator MD-5C/APS-3. (NASM A20070043000) Note that they are seen here upside down, compared to when installed in the scanner radome. Closeup of Modulator MD-5C/APS-3: (NASM A20070043000) The modulator can be seen in position atop the scanner assembly in this photo. Although this shows a B-24 installation, the scanner and support trapeze were virtually identical to the B-17 installation: Receiver-Indicator R-78A/APS-15A: (NASM A20070044000) Range Unit CP-11A/APS-15A: (NASM A20070045000) Control Unit C-33A/APS-15: (NASM A20070046000) Computer CP-10/APS-15A (Late/post WWII, rarely seen in ETO PFF B-17s.): (NASM A20070046000) Junction Box J-15B/APS-15: (NASM A20070048000) Any other queries, just ask and I'll pull the relevant info from the files. All the best, PB Edited March 6, 2011 by PGB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
100th BG Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Paul, those photos are outstanding! WOW, what more can I say? That is some excellent information. Never knew much about the PFF birds, although one of the guys I talk to from the 100th flew tail gunner on them a few times. Thank you VERY much for sharing with us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 No problem Karl. I have a database of all the PFF Forts I've identified holding whatever info I can grub up on each, it's up to 355 so far including 38 assigned to the 100BG. Of those 38, at least 25 survived WWII and were flown back to the US, being scrapped at Walnut Ridge. All the best, Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Paul! Superb information here! Thank you for posting this infor up for us. I'm going to pin this one if you don't mind. Mark. Edited March 6, 2011 by Kostucha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shawn M Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Great stuff in here! Guys building fortress 3's like me pay attention, there is a lot of cross over info in here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Army_Air_Force Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 For the Memphis Bell fans out there, check out these scanned slides a guy took back in 1989 during the filming. He just posted a link on the Flypast forum, and there's some fantastic shots in there, especially the sunset pictures. http://www.flickr.com/photos/60066945@N05/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) I got another bunch of 401BG documents from NARA today, which contain quite a few gems of info on the PFF B-17 "fleet" they operated. One thing that sprang out was that just before VE-Day the Group Radar Shop was re-equipped to service the (AN/APQ-7) Eagle radar system alongside their usual (AN/APS-15) H2X radar. Eagle had suffered a protracted development, and was only just entering operational trials over Europe by April 1945. Hmmm, do I get another Revell kit and do a "what-if" build? B) Answer: No, because Eagle looks darn ugly on anything, especially a B-17. :D All the best, PB Edited March 9, 2011 by PGB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Thanks again PB! This is some great info! Cheers, Mark. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) Hopefully this helps... My plan is to have this list up, and any key modifications (based on factory production blocks, not field modifications), such as staggered waist guns, cheek gun positions, and other details listed. This is all shown as they would have appeared... what's that word I'm looking for... ...ummmm... forget it. It's going to be shown as a timeline. if I'm wrong anyone, please let me know so we can update this list. If you've got anything to add, PM me so that I can add it to the list. Thanks! Here's from Y1B-17 to the B-17E block series: Block.............. Serial Number Y1B-17............... 36-149/36-161 Y1B-17A............. 37-369 B-17B................. 38-211/38-220 B-17B................. 38-221/38-223 B-17B................. 38-258/38-270 B-17B................. 38-583/38-584 B-17B................. 38-610 B-17B................. 39/001-39-010 B-17C................. 40-2042/40-2079 B-17D................. 40-3059/40-3100 B-17E.................. 41-2393/41-2669 B-17E.................. 41-9011/41-9245 Edited March 11, 2011 by Kostucha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) Here's the B-17F block series (with one random G... any other info on this one?): BO - Boeing DL - Douglas VE - Vega Block.............. Serial Number B-17F-1-BO.............. 41-24340/41-24389 B-17F-5-BO.............. 41-24390/41-24439 B-17F-10-BO............ 41-24440/41-24489 B-17F-15-BO............ 41-24490/41-24503 B-17F-20-BO............ 41-24504/41-24539 B-17F-25-BO............ 41-24540/41-24584 B-17F-27-BO............ 41-24585/41-24639 B-17F-1-DL.............. 42-2964/42-2966 B-17F-5-DL.............. 42-2967/42-2978 B-17F-10-DL............ 42-2979/42-3003 B-17F-15-DL............ 42-3004/42-3038 B-17F-20-DL............ 42-3039/42-3073 B-17F-25-DL............ 42-3074/42-3148 B-17F-30-DL............ 42-3149/42-3188 B-17F-35-DL............ 42-3189/42-3228 B-17F-40-DL............ 42-3229/42-3283 B-17F-45-DL............ 42-3284/42-3338 B-17F-50-DL............ 42-3339/42-3393 B-17F-55-DL............ 42-3394/42-3422 B-17F-60-DL............ 42-3423/42-3448 B-17F-65-DL............ 42-3449/42-3482 B-17F-70-DL............ 42-3483/42-3503 B-17F-75-DL............ 42-3504/42-3562 B-17G-5-DL............. 42-3563 B-17F-30-BO............ 42-5050/42-5078 B-17F-35-BO............ 42-5079/42-5149 B-17F-40-BO............ 42-5150/42-5249 B-17F-45-BO............ 42-5250/42-5349 B-17F-50-BO............ 42-5350/42-5484 B-17F-1-VE.............. 42-5705/42-5709 B-17F-5-VE.............. 42-5710/42-5724 B-17F-10-VE............ 42-5725/42-5744 B-17F-15-VE............ 42-5745/42-5764 B-17F-20-VE............ 42-5765/42-5804 B-17F-25-VE............ 42-5805/42-5854 B-17F-30-VE............ 42-5855/42-5904 B-17F-35-VE............ 42-5905/42-5954 B-17F-40-VE............ 42-5955/42-6029 B-17F-45-VE............ 42-6030/42-6104 B-17F-50-VE............ 42-6105/42-6204 B-17F-55-BO............ 42-29467/42-29531 B-17F-60-BO............ 42-29532/42-29631 B-17F-65-BO............ 42-29632/42-29731 B-17F-70-BO............ 42-29732/42-29831 B-17F-75-BO............ 42-29832/42-29931 B-17F-80-BO............ 42-29932/42-30031 B-17F-85-BO............ 42-30032/42-30131 B-17F-90-BO............ 42-30132/42-30231 B-17F-95-BO............ 42-30232/42-30331 B-17F-100-BO.......... 42-30332/42-30431 B-17F-105-BO.......... 42-30432/42-30531 B-17F-110-BO.......... 42-30532/42-30616 B-17F-115-BO.......... 42-30617/42-30731 B-17F-120-BO.......... 42-30732/42-30931 B-17F-125-BO.......... 42-30832/42-30931 B-17F-130-BO.......... 42-30932/42-31031 Edited March 11, 2011 by Kostucha Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) And the G's (B-17F-80-DL is not a type-O) Block.............. Serial Number B-17G-1-BO............ 42-31032/42-31113 B-17G-5-BO............ 42-31132/42-31231 B-17G-10-BO.......... 42-31232/42-31331 B-17G-15-BO.......... 42-31332/42-31431 B-17G-20-BO.......... 42-31432/42-31631 B-17G-25-BO.......... 42-31632/42-31731 B-17G-30-BO.......... 42-31732/42-31931 B-17G-35-BO.......... 42-31932/42-32116 - Camouflage deleted B-17G-80-DL........... 42-37714/42-37715 B-17F-80-DL............ 42-37717/42-37720 B-17G-10-DL........... 42-37716, 42-37721/42-37803 B-17G-15-DL........... 42-37804/42-37893 B-17G-20-DL........... 42-37894/42-37988 B-17G-25-DL........... 42-37989/42-38083 - staggered waist introduced B-17G-30-DL........... 42-38084/42-38213 B-17G-1-VE............. 42-39758/42-39857 B-17G-5-VE............. 42-39858/42-39957 B-17G-10-VE........... 42-39958/42-40057 B-17G-40-BO........... 42-97058/42-97172 B-17G-45-BO........... 42-97173/42-97407 B-17G-15-VE............ 42-97436/42-97535 - Camouflage deleted B-17G-20-VE............ 42-97536/42-97635 B-17G-25-VE............ 42-97636/42-97735 B-17G-30-VE............ 42-97736/42-97835 B-17G-35-VE............ 42-97836/42-97935 B-17G-40-VE............ 42-97936/42-98035 B-17G-50-BO............ 42-102379/42-102543 - staggered waist introduced B-17G-55-BO............ 42-102544/42-102743 B-17G-60-BO............ 42-102744/42-102978 B-17G-35-DL............ 42-106984/42-107233 - Camouflage deleted B-17G-65-BO............ 43-37674/43-37673 B-17G-70-BO............ 43-37674/43-37673 B-17G-75-BO............ 43-37874/43-37873 B-17G-80-BO............ 43-38074/43-38073 - hot air heating system vents on top of the wings appear - post #25, fire extinguishers moved from right wing root to under the cockpit floor - post #26 B-17G-85-BO............ 43-38274/43-38273 B-17G-90-BO............ 43-38474/43-38473 B-17G-95-BO............ 43-38674/43-38673 B-17G-100-BO.......... 43-38874/43-38873 B-17G-105-BO.......... 43-39074/43-39073 B-17G-110-BO.......... 43-39274/43-39273 B-17G-40-DL............ 44-6001/44-6125 B-17G-45-DL............ 44-6126/44-6250 B-17G-50-DL............ 44-6251/44-6500 - hot air heating system vents on top of the wings appear - post #25, fire extinguishers moved from right wing root to under the cockpit floor - post #26 B-17G-55-DL............ 44-6501/44-6625 B-17G-60-DL............ 44-6626/44-6750 B-17G-65-DL............ 44-6751/44-6875 B-17G-70-DL............ 44-6873/44-7000 B-17G-45-VE............ 44-8001/44-8100 B-17G-50-VE............ 44-8101/44-8200 - hot air heating system vents on top of the wings appear - post #25, fire extinguishers moved from right wing root to under the cockpit floor - post #26 - staggered waist introduced B-17G-55-VE............ 44-8201/44-8300 B-17G-60-VE............ 44-8301/44-8400 B-17G-65-VE............ 44-8401/44-8500 B-17G-70-VE............ 44-8501/44-8600 B-17G-75-VE............ 44-8601/44-8700 B-17G-80-VE............ 44-8701/44-8800 B-17G-85-VE............ 44-8801/44-8900 B-17G-90-VE............ 44-8901/44-9000 B-17G-75-DL............ 44-83236/44-83360 B-17G-80-DL............ 44-83361/44-83485 B-17G-85-DL............ 44-83486/44-83585 B-17G-90-DL............ 44-83586/44-83685 B-17G-95-DL............ 44-83686/44-83863 B-17G-95-DL............ 44-83864/44-83885 B-17G-95-VE............ 44-85492/44-85591 B-17G-100-VE.......... 44-85592/44-85691 B-17G-105-VE.......... 44-85692/44-85791 B-17G-110-VE.......... 44-85792/44-85841 Alright... now the second part... adding some key mods and the blocks they appeared in... Cheers, Mark. Edited March 13, 2011 by 100th BG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Army_Air_Force Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 In a recent USAAF dump site dig, the guys found part of the nacelle panel from the last B-17F made, serial #42-31031. A couple of pictures can be found here - http://www.usaaf.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=1845 http://www.usaaf.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=1844 in the USAAF forum - http://www.usaaf.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=739 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
100th BG Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 That is really interesting. I think we have all seen Mustang panels with the last few numerals from the S/N on them, but this is interesting that they took the time to put the whole serial on along with its location. And we should all note it is unpainted. We keep learning more and more! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Here's a link that shows what bombers landed in Switzerland and when during the war: http://swissinternees.tripod.com/aircraft.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PGB Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 That is really interesting. I think we have all seen Mustang panels with the last few numerals from the S/N on them, but this is interesting that they took the time to put the whole serial on along with its location. And we should all note it is unpainted. We keep learning more and more! I seem to recall it still retained some paint on the outer surface, but will have to check as the photos only show the inner face. All the best, PB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
100th BG Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I meant the inside was unpainted. Every manual I have for WW II aircraft states that the interior of all cowlings is to be umpainted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ranger74 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I meant the inside was unpainted. Every manual I have for WW II aircraft states that the interior of all cowlings is to be umpainted. Guess I will have to go back and very carefully repaint the inside of my cowlings, since the engines have been mounted B) But better now than when the props were mounted! Thanks for the info. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shawn M Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 well crap....Im not taking mine apart now Quote Link to post Share on other sites
100th BG Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 :wacko: I won't tell if you won't! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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