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Kostucha

Little Miss Mischief Diorama

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As Steve pointed out, the floor changed in the waist when they staggered the waist guns. Not only did the step around the ball chanage sides, but it also changed from a small walkway down the center with a "step" on each side to a larger, higher center floor. Since the aft section they installed did not have the staggered guns, the step around the ball would have been on the right.

Earlyfloor2.jpg

Here is a late G with the step around the left:

Gwaist8-1-44.jpg

Here is the view looking aft and you can see the difference in the floor better. You can just make out the step around the ball on the right side of the photo (left side of the airplane):

Latefloor.jpg

Edited by 100th BG

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Your first picture with the opposed waist guns shows the step on the right ( starboard ) side of the aircraft. The second late G has the step on the port, which is what I said.

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Steve, Karl, yes "Wallaroo Mark II" (The section that was used to replace LMM's original piece) had the old unstaggered waist position. That waist position is actually a bit of a question left unanswered.

Karl, "Wallaroo Mark II" was a B-17G-15-BO, same as "Mason and Dixon". Coming off the factory floor, they would have both had the 3 piece waist window (the framed ones). In a later picture, it shows LMM with the newer single-piece plexi glass (with the K-6 mount, and yes, a Cheyenne Turret), but that's in April. Would I be far off in saying that along with the fresh OD green sprayed on the edge of the waist position, there was an obvious retrofit to the newer style between the rebuild and the final crash photo of LMM (April 45). Reading that over again, it seems like a very straight forward answer, but I've learned nothing with LMM is straight forward.

I'm having a hard time planning out how I'm going to fill in the fuselage section and build it up between the fuselage and the trailing edge of the wing. I think it'll be simple enough once I get working on it, just a matter of getting to it. But, it'll have to wait until the bomb bay is complete. Luckily it looks like I can use the kit piece. Yay!

Cheers,

Mark.

Had to add this - every time I see pictures of the waist position I shudder... just doing the framing in lower portion of the nose caused me to question what I'm doing... by the time the bomb bay gets finished, I might just consider the thought that the waist section in this diorama has yet to be brought in... hahaha.

Edited by Kostucha

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GOOD GRIEF, I have failed Left/Right 101! How embarrasing :thumbsup: !!!! You are correct Steve!

I went back and corrected it, thanks Steve.

Mark, I agree with you that they enclosed the waist with a single pane of Plexiglas. Unusual, but we know the 91st wasn't afraid to work with the stuff since they took the trouble to replace most of their astrodomes with a flat piece. That is yet another interesting discovery you have made!

Edited by 100th BG

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GOOD GRIEF, I have failed Left/Right 101! How embarrasing :woo: !!!! You are correct Steve!

You're going to tell me now that your normal job is Air Traffic Control at an airport, and you talk pilots down in fog by telling them to go left and right!!!! :thumbsup:

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What blew me away was (as shown on page 1) looking at that picture for clues, then saw what I first thought was a building in the background. My first thought was - Why is there a building so close to the runway. Then it hit me hard... the new Cheyenne turret frame is clearly seen. So... maybe all those paintings and models showing her with the new tail turrent are too far off. BUT, it was put on well after the surgery of the two bombers was complete. Hence not taking anything as the "straight forward" answer.

My plan is to show the waist with the framed waist windows removed. Frankly, pretty much everything removed, with the parts going in being placed on tables/boxes, etc, waiting for the grafting to be completed and then installed afterwards.

The bomb bay itself will be a 3 main piece effort, or... 3 groups:

1. Bulkhead No. 4 (complete) & Bulkhead No. 5 (still to be made).

2. A new bomb bay interior made of thin sheet styrene wrapping around and giving the perfectly round shape inside. This will be two pieces (port fuselage half, and starboard fuselage half) complete with the ribbing/framing. Two pieces so that I can paint it once it's all in, and

3. The remainder of the Paragon parts (walk way, bomb wracks, etc).

Once the bomb bay is done between Bulkhead 4 & 5, I'll build up the open (and empty) life raft section and all the construction in the roof of the radio room.

Once all the work is done, it'll be the same here as for the rest of the fuselage, painting will wait until the rest of the construction is finished (Radio room for the most part), and then once both fuselage halves are done, it'll be painted aluminum inside (pretty much the majority of the fuselage - still figuring out if the nose was aluminum or green). THEN all the wiring will start to be put in... lots and lots of wiring... the other components mounted on the fuselage halves, and work on the floor, IP, etc will start.

That's the plan at least.

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Here is a photo from a WWII bomb group website that leads me to believe that the nose interior was unpainted. You can see the markings on the aluminum skin, showing it is unpainted. There is stenciling aft of the cheek gun, but above the babys picture you can see the "ALCLAD 24ST" marking.

Capt_Bonnett.jpg

And here is one from the Dash 1:

GBombpanel.jpg

Again, the markings on the skin clearly show up. These and many other photos have led me to the belief that most B-17G's were unpainted. This goes against just about everybody else, but what the heck, I dare to be different! Also, note that I said MOST were unpainted. I also have a couple of WWII era photos showing a painted radio compartment and a painted waist. It's just that the majority of photos I have seen are unpainted. YMMV...

And Steve, scary as it may be, I actually work on airplanes. Remember those UPS birds that the bombs were found on in your country a while back? That's what I work on.... You wanted WHICH engine changed????

Edited by 100th BG

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Here's one for ya Karl, do you have any similar pics on the nose interior that shows the sight for the chin turret that hangs from the front of the nose? Still not sure what color to paint that.

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Here are a couple of photos I got a few years back when I was able to get a tall ladder in front of "Shoo Shoo Baby":

B-17Details002.jpg

B-17Details001.jpg

I believe the mechanism would be painted Dull Dark Green, more or less as they have it. DDG seems to have been standard for turret interior and components. The control yoke would also be DDG.

And here are a couple from the manual:

Chinturretoverall.jpg

Chinturretinterior-1.jpg

And: Is that interior painted ; ) ? The skin but not the formers and stingers? That would be very wierd. I don't know but it sure makes me wonder... (I mean the one from the manual. I know SSB is painted, but it is a VERY strange color, I think.)

Edited by 100th BG

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You guys are great!

Karl, I do believe that the nose of LMM was unpainted - and I'll get to that shortly. I want to correct something quickly though - and I'll edit it shortly. Earlier today I mentioned that both "Mason and Dixon" and "Wallaroo Mark II" were B-17G-15-BO's. They were. But previous to that this morning I also mistakenly stated that LMM was a -15-BO. She's not. LMM is a -35-VE.

Okay, so, the only reason that I have to doubt that LMM had her interior (nose) painted is... well... actually, nothing. It's started as just one of those "not 100%" things. Rather than having someone hold me by the hand and walk me to a picture that shows her either painted/unpainted (I've been doing to much of that lately I think), I started to look through some shots. The first is oddly enough, the chin turret I wanted to impress upon. She was, at the time of her surgery grey - not metal like in April of 45:

mischiefgreychinturret.jpg

Before digressing too far, back to what I was talking about. The first shot that leads me to really agree with Karl is the shot of the damage in the Oct 15 raid. Looking forward it's quite evident that yes, the radio room bulkheads 5 & 6 are unpainted, but looking into the bomb bay, you can see that the ribs running along the top of the bomb bay between the two bomb racks is reflecting the light just as any other unpainted surface is:

PossiblyLMM.jpg

(Karl, I'm using your picture you posted by the way, hope you don't mind. If you do, tell me and I'll yank it off)

I can also see from there that the bomb racks themselves are painted - no surprise - but the contrast between the two gives good evidence to put any speculation on the bomb bay being painted to rest.

Taking a little step further forward, here are two shots of LMM in the '45 crash, one colour, one B&W. Looking inside, it sure is hard to tell if the nose is painted or not, but given that little else is, it would only make sense that the nose wasn't either. It's dark, there's shadows... hard to tell...

LMMNoseApril45.jpg

colournoseLMMcloseup.jpg

But looking at the colour shot, take a look at the window frame where the light is coming through - furthest forward, starboard side. Here's a crop:

colournoseLMMcloseupcrop.jpg

And thus, I have my answer! Unpainted nose it is.

Oddly enough, in finding that picture, I stumbled on a 'Glory Shot' of a couple of the many unsung heroes - firefighters. Take a look at the tail number - sure enough, it's LMM (before Oct 15 '44, as the forward half of the vertical stab is still NMF, and the small portion of the tail gunners canopy is definitely showing the bend half way in the frame like the old style has):

gloryshot.jpg

Anywho, that's my little blurb with a couple of neat pictures for you all to enjoy.

Cheers!

Mark.

Edited by Kostucha

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Thank you very much Shawn, but I must give credit to Karl, Stephen, and the magic of Google - if not for their incredible wealth of knowledge and help (and patience) I'd have nowhere near the information needed to pull this one off.

Cheers!

Mark.

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Quick update. I ended up combining the Paragon piece, with the kit piece, and some scratch building for bulkhead No. 5:

Forward Side (bomb bay)

DSC05739.jpg

Aft Side (radio room)

DSC05738.jpg

Once I knew what the final shape was, and where No. 5 will be sitting, I ensured the bomb bay was squared off, measuring the same at the base as it does at the top, then made a template of the bomb bay side, and put in a thin piece of sheet styrene:

DSC05742.jpg

Here are a couple of quick shots with the No. 5 bulkhead 'mocked up':

DSC05743.jpg

DSC05744.jpg

Tomorrow it'll be the framing inside the first portion glued into the bomb bay.

I don't know if I'll get a chance afterwards to build and put in the upper formers for the life raft bins, and the stowage position for the Radio Operators .50 Cal, but they eventually will be made up, then the upper portion of the bomb bay will be glued in. Once that upper portion though is ready to be glued in, that's when the No. 5 bulkhead will be glued into the fuselage. From there, work will continue back into the radio room. Simply stated, it'll be the same process... then it all get's repeated for the other side...

Anywho, thanks for looking!

Cheers,

Mark.

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Great work Mark!

That Wing Scale 17' is calling to me for a super detail build like this.

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Great work Mark!

That Wing Scale 17' is calling to me for a super detail build like this.

Thanks Shawn.

I'll be quite frank in my statement that their 1/32 B-17 would be the death of me. I could see myself pull the "Stuka" treatment on 'er and disappear for a few years. And looking at the shelf with some of the other kits I want to do this year and next, I'll be avoiding her like the plague.

I noticed I messed up on the radio room side of the bulkhead. That reinforcing piece at the base of the door for the walk way is both far too big, and upside down (taking a look into the same area on the 'battle damage' picture). So, tonight it'll be a quick fix there, and then continuing on with the plan.

Now, does anyone have any good shots of the section above the radio compartment, the framing on the sliding .50 specifically (and it's mechanism)? I have the frame work, pull handles for the rafts, and some other minor details, along with everything I could possibly want for the life raft compartment (I'm going to remove the "wood divider" between the two, and have the entire thing comepletey open so that you can look across from one side to the other above the bomb bay - I think that'd be kinda neat, but the .50 related items are hard as **** to find. Thanks in advance.

Cheers all!

Mark.

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like this?

idb17-27b.jpg

some odd things in this image:

twin 50's

looks like an earlier model forts opening as well

Edited by Shawn M

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Twin .50's?! X/YB-40?

Something that shows the tube frame (tube I'm guessing), the rail system, etc. The more info I can get the better. I've got a couple of the currently flying B-17's, one with it stowed, but I've learned the hard way not to trust pictures like that. I'd rather see the real deal. Know what I mean?

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totally follow you on that!

I know I've seen them somewhere in one of the links I posted in the info/ref. thread

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Here is the page from the Parts Manual:

Radiogun.jpg

I'll get you some more info next weekend. I am running out of time and need to head back to St Louis (sigh)...

I love my job, I love my job, I love my *&$##@!% job!!!

PS. I think the twin installation was standard on a C or a D although I am not sure. Also notice the nice fabric lining used on all B-17's thru the F!

Edited by 100th BG

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wow thats a confusing picture!

It looks like there were two mount types.

You're coming back to the 'lou in time for all the snow!

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Holy crap Karl - lots of great info in that picture! But I feel like I need a course or two to make heads or tails of it. Wow... a little more than I thought would be involved. Awesome!

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Okay, sorry to overwhelm you! The one in the upper right is the fixed gun, so don't worry about that for LMM. The one to the middle left is for the earlier installation. The big "T" shaped piece supported the gun inside the ring. The ring actually slid back and forth, locking in either the stowed or firing position. HTH I will see if I can clean it up and get you better information by next weekend. I will take some of the microfilm with me and see if a local library has a reader printer. I also need to go thru my photos I took during my years with "Journey". I was constantly taking pictures from a modeler's point of view (if you can imagine that!) Later guys, have a good week! And Mark, Shawn, and Steve your progress is great! I am not doing so well, but then my modeling is usually fraught with frustration!

Edited by 100th BG

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