P-51K vs. P-51D

JasonW · January 13, 2011

I just realized I've got a complete run of Mustangs in 48th... except the H. *sigh.... guess I'll have to get a Classic Airframes H.....

Is there anything other than the longer fuselage that makes the H different externally? With the seeming rarity of the Czechmaster Resin 1/72 kit, I'm wondering if there is a way to take your average D or K kit and turn it into an H.

Cobrahistorian · January 13, 2011

Is there anything other than the longer fuselage that makes the H different externally? With the seeming rarity of the Czechmaster Resin 1/72 kit, I'm wondering if there is a way to take your average D or K kit and turn it into an H.

Completely different fuselage, completely different wing. It really is a very different animal.

Chuck1945 · January 13, 2011

...I also have Academy's Alison engined Mustang, which is a P-51A I think? ...

That one has perhaps the best wing shape of any of the earlier Mustangs (P-51A/B/C) Without looking it up, what I remember is the cannon armed version is the P-51, replacing the cannon with .50s it became the P-51A, and replacing the Allison with a Packard Merlin, it became the P-51B - of course ther were other changes as well. I still would like Academy to make the changes to their early Mustang to permit an A-36 or a RAF Mustang I to be built, but I reckon that will only happen if I convert their current kit :D (Same comments apply to re-doing their P-38J as a G or H)

anotherP51nut · January 13, 2011

Is there anything other than the longer fuselage that makes the H different externally? With the seeming rarity of the Czechmaster Resin 1/72 kit, I'm wondering if there is a way to take your average D or K kit and turn it into an H.

As Cobrahistorian said, the "H" is a very different aircraft; fuselage, wings, canopy, undercarriage, cockpit... There is a 1/72 scale kit from High Planes in Australia that is still available. It's a short-run kit and requires a bit more care than other manufacturers but is accurate. Should be a bit cheaper than the CMK kit too. If you need help locating one let me know.

As for the Academy "D", skip that one. It is more toy-like than the others and has somewhat rounded and soft shapes, contrasted with a curiously well-detailed cockpit. The Hasegawa and Tamiya are miles better and the way to go. The Italeri is a no-go, they forgot the wingroot fillet.

The Academy B/C is quite good if you can replace the canopy. There really isn't a perfect (whatever that means :) ) B/C in 1/72. One of the best builds I've seen combined the Hasegawa fuselage with the Academy wings. I think it's here in the ARC gallery.

Hope this adds somewhat to the info you've received so far.

Cheers,

Richard

Phil marchese · January 13, 2011

The plane in the landing approach may be a rarer by a long shot. Is it a B-17H ( can't see a chin )or a VB-17, perhaps Boobs? Although one woukd expected the latter to be at Okinawa, but there were others around. It there is a chin dome, a visit to C&C VOl VII, Services Around the World ,is in order, the 6th ERS comes to mind first.

348th Fighter Group

Constituted as 348th Fighter Group on 24 Sep 1942 and activated on 30 Sep. Prepared for combat with P-47's. Moved to the Southwest Pacific, May-Jun 1943, and assigned to Fifth AF. Operated from New Guinea and Noemfoor until Nov 1944. Flew patrol and reconnaissance missions and escorted bombers to targets in New Guinea and New Britain. Col Neel E Kearby was awarded the Medal of Honor for action over New Guinea on 11 Oct 1943: after leading a flight of four fighters to reconnoiter the enemy base at Wewak, Col Kearby sighted a Japanese bomber formation escorted by more than 30 fighters; despite the heavy odds and a low fuel supply, and although his mission had been accomplished, Kearby ordered an attack, personally destroying six of the enemy planes. For covering Allied landings and supporting ground forces on New Britain, 16-31 Dec 1943, the group was awarded a DUC. In 1944 began to attack airfields, installations, and shipping in western New Guinea, Ceram, and Halmahera to aid in neutralizing those areas preparatory to the US invasion of the Philippines. After moving to the Philippines in Nov 1944, provided cover for convoys, flew patrols, escorted bombers, attacked enemy airfields, and supported ground forces. Received a DUC for withstanding assaults by enemy fighters to cover bombers raiding Clark Field on 24 Dec 1944. Also attacked shipping along the China coast and escorted bombers to Formosa and the Asiatic mainland. Moved to the Ryukyus in Jul 1945 and completed some escort and attack missions to Kyushu before the war ended. Moved to Japan in Oct 1945 as part of Far East Air Forces. Inactivated on 10 May 1946.

Although some personnel and combat units were assigned before V-J Day, the Eighth did not participate in combat against Japan. 316th Bombardment Wing: 1945-1946. Okinawa, 16 Jul 1945-7 Jun 1946; 21 Jun 1945; Lt Gen James H Doolittle, 19 Jul 1945. Boobs was Doolittle's transport on Okinawa.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Phil marchese

Cobrahistorian · January 13, 2011

That one has perhaps the best wing shape of any of the earlier Mustangs (P-51A/B/C) Without looking it up, what I remember is the cannon armed version is the P-51, replacing the cannon with .50s it became the P-51A, and replacing the Allison with a Packard Merlin, it became the P-51B - of course ther were other changes as well. I still would like Academy to make the changes to their early Mustang to permit an A-36 or a RAF Mustang I to be built, but I reckon that will only happen if I convert their current kit :) (Same comments apply to re-doing their P-38J as a G or H)

The first US version was the P-51-1-NA, also referred to as the F-6A. This is the 20mm cannon-armed version and it only saw combat service with the 111th and 154th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons in North Africa and Sicily.

The A-36 was the dive-bomber version, armed with 6-.50 cals and had dive brakes in the wings. It had a different propeller, wider carburetor intake with a bypass door added, so converting a P-51A is a bit trickier than just adding the two nose guns and dive brakes on the wings. Certainly not impossible though. I've been talking to an A-36 pilot quite a bit lately and it is pretty amazing to hear about how incredible an airplane it was. A-36s were flown in the MTO by the 27th and 86th Fighter Groups and in the CBI by the 311th FG.

The P-51A went to the 4-.50 cal configuration in the wings. It had a larger prop and higher powered engine as well. They served in combat as F-6Bs with the 107th and 109th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons and in the CBI with the 1st Air Commando Group and 311th Fighter Group.

And of course, the P-51B was a lot more than just an A model with a Merlin engine. It took an extensive redesign of the radiator configuration, new prop, and a deeper fuselage, and that's just what's visible on the outside!

Phil marchese · January 14, 2011

The first US version was the P-51-1-NA, also referred to as the F-6A. This is the 20mm cannon-armed version and it only saw combat service with the 111th and 154th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons in North Africa and Sicily.
The A-36 was the dive-bomber version, armed with 6-.50 cals and had dive brakes in the wings. It had a different propeller, wider carburetor intake with a bypass door added, so converting a P-51A is a bit trickier than just adding the two nose guns and dive brakes on the wings. Certainly not impossible though. I've been talking to an A-36 pilot quite a bit lately and it is pretty amazing to hear about how incredible an airplane it was. A-36s were flown in the MTO by the 27th and 86th Fighter Groups and in the CBI by the 311th FG.

The P-51A went to the 4-.50 cal configuration in the wings. It had a larger prop and higher powered engine as well. They served in combat as F-6Bs with the 107th and 109th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons and in the CBI with the 1st Air Commando Group and 311th Fighter Group.

And of course, the P-51B was a lot more than just an A model with a Merlin engine. It took an extensive redesign of the radiator configuration, new prop, and a deeper fuselage, and that's just what's visible on the outside!

There was an Allison Engined F-6 or F-6A TAc Rec in ETO with codes AX. Don't have at had, matbe 69 TAC Sq or 109 Tac Sq, Otherwise, a supurb job.

Cobrahistorian · January 14, 2011

There was an Allison Engined F-6 or F-6A TAc Rec in ETO with codes AX. Don't have at had, matbe 69 TAC Sq or 109 Tac Sq, Otherwise, a supurb job.

F-6Bs with AX codes were with the 107th TRS, former Michigan National Guard. The 109th flew with VX codes. They were originally the Minnesota Guard's Observation Squadron. I've never seen any evidence of either the 107th or 109th flying F-6As in the ETO. The 111th and 154th TRSs were Texas and Arkansas National Guard respectively and they are the only units that flew the P-51-NA (production blocks 1 and 2) / F-6A in combat.

There has been some confusion in the past about the F-6A/F-6B designation, and I think that stems from the fact that the P-51A photo recon version was the F-6B. It is common tendency to shift the same sub-type designator from fighter to tac recon fighter, despite the fact that the P-51A tac recon version was the second such aircraft type. I've seen F-6Bs identified as F-6As in numerous publications. If it didn't have 20mm cannons, it wasn't an F-6A.

Jon

Phil marchese · January 14, 2011

F-6Bs with AX codes were with the 107th TRS, former Michigan National Guard. The 109th flew with VX codes. They were originally the Minnesota Guard's Observation Squadron. I've never seen any evidence of either the 107th or 109th flying F-6As in the ETO. The 111th and 154th TRSs were Texas and Arkansas National Guard respectively and they are the only units that flew the P-51-NA (production blocks 1 and 2) / F-6A in combat.
There has been some confusion in the past about the F-6A/F-6B designation, and I think that stems from the fact that the P-51A photo recon version was the F-6B. It is common tendency to shift the same sub-type designator from fighter to tac recon fighter, despite the fact that the P-51A tac recon version was the second such aircraft type. I've seen F-6Bs identified as F-6As in numerous publications. If it didn't have 20mm cannons, it wasn't an F-6A.

Jon

But then there were AllisonF-6 type/model in the ETO with code AX (with the 107th) and the 109th (VX).

The confusion in the post arose from the lack of mention of the ETO in the paragraph dealing with the P-51A/F-6B and the CBI units .

Once again, a supurb job.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Phil marchese

tourist · January 14, 2011

There has been some confusion in the past about the F-6A/F-6B designation...

It is almost impossible to find a publication that gets the Allisons right.

Somehow everything ends up being a P-51A and, as you pointed out it is worse for the F-6s.

The P-51D vs P-51K topic also often leads to confusion.

The only difference is the propeller.

Cobrahistorian · January 14, 2011

But then there were AllisonF-6 type/model in the ETO with code AX (with the 107th) and the 109th (VX).
The confusion in the post arose from the lack of mention of the ETO in the paragraph dealing with the P-51A/F-6B and the CBI units .

Once again, a supurb job.

Ah, ok, I see what you're saying. Yes, the Allison-engined F-6B was flown by the 107th and 109th until October/November 44.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Cobrahistorian

Geoff Hays · January 15, 2011

The plane in the landing approach may be a rarer by a long shot. Is it a B-17H ( can't see a chin )or a VB-17, perhaps Boobs? Although one woukd expected the latter to be at Okinawa, but there were others around. It there is a chin dome, a visit to C&C VOl VII, Services Around the World ,is in order, the 6th ERS comes to mind first.
348th Fighter Group

Constituted as 348th Fighter Group on 24 Sep 1942 and activated on 30 Sep. Prepared for combat with P-47's. Moved to the Southwest Pacific, May-Jun 1943, and assigned to Fifth AF. Operated from New Guinea and Noemfoor until Nov 1944. Flew patrol and reconnaissance missions and escorted bombers to targets in New Guinea and New Britain. Col Neel E Kearby was awarded the Medal of Honor for action over New Guinea on 11 Oct 1943: after leading a flight of four fighters to reconnoiter the enemy base at Wewak, Col Kearby sighted a Japanese bomber formation escorted by more than 30 fighters; despite the heavy odds and a low fuel supply, and although his mission had been accomplished, Kearby ordered an attack, personally destroying six of the enemy planes. For covering Allied landings and supporting ground forces on New Britain, 16-31 Dec 1943, the group was awarded a DUC. In 1944 began to attack airfields, installations, and shipping in western New Guinea, Ceram, and Halmahera to aid in neutralizing those areas preparatory to the US invasion of the Philippines. After moving to the Philippines in Nov 1944, provided cover for convoys, flew patrols, escorted bombers, attacked enemy airfields, and supported ground forces. Received a DUC for withstanding assaults by enemy fighters to cover bombers raiding Clark Field on 24 Dec 1944. Also attacked shipping along the China coast and escorted bombers to Formosa and the Asiatic mainland. Moved to the Ryukyus in Jul 1945 and completed some escort and attack missions to Kyushu before the war ended. Moved to Japan in Oct 1945 as part of Far East Air Forces. Inactivated on 10 May 1946.

Although some personnel and combat units were assigned before V-J Day, the Eighth did not participate in combat against Japan. 316th Bombardment Wing: 1945-1946. Okinawa, 16 Jul 1945-7 Jun 1946; 21 Jun 1945; Lt Gen James H Doolittle, 19 Jul 1945. Boobs was Doolittle's transport on Okinawa.

The P-51D in the photo has the markings very similar to those carried by the 3rd Fighter Squadron, 3rd Air Commandos (the letter on eth vertical tail is the clue). If so, at least some of thee might have been taken on Ie Shima. The 3rd Air Commandos staged there from the Philippines to support OPERATION OLYMPIC. Wonder what other images of the Third might be in this set.?

Geoff Hays

Son of a 3rd AC pilot

Cobrahistorian · January 15, 2011

Ah, but believe it or not, at least one unit assigned to 8th AF HQ Pacific DID see combat under their auspices before the cessation of hostilities.

The 507th Fighter Group was assigned to the 8th AF, PTO before the end of the war (I believe they were transferred the last week of July). The reason I bring this up is that one of the uniforms in my collection belonged to a 507th pilot and he's got an 8th AF combat patch, but never served in the ETO. He flew 11 combat missions off of Ie Shima in July/August 1945 in P-47Ns with the 465th FS. I've spoken to him at length and we correspond regularly, and he is absolutely adamant that they were assigned to the 8th AF, not the 20th.

Phil marchese · January 15, 2011

I enlarged the (IWO) photo to get a better look at the approaching Fortress. I don't think it has the nose dome of an ERS H series. So it's likely a VB-17G/CB-17.

However, the Mustang (cuffed prop- small flair to nose band) is named TEXAS LONGHORN and has a skeleton steer head and horns between and above the words.

JasonW · January 17, 2011

Completely different fuselage, completely different wing. It really is a very different animal.

I just got my hands on the Squadron In Action book for the P-51 and I see what you're talking about now.

Here is hoping I can find the Czechmaster Resin kit. Hasn't been easy thus far.

On a bit of a different note, any comments on accuracy for the Special Hobby Mustang I kit? A local shop has it for $21, so I was thinking of grabbing it.

Phil marchese · January 17, 2011

The P-51D in the photo has the markings very similar to those carried by the 3rd Fighter Squadron, 3rd Air Commandos (the letter on eth vertical tail is the clue). If so, at least some of thee might have been taken on Ie Shima. The 3rd Air Commandos staged there from the Philippines to support OPERATION OLYMPIC. Wonder what other images of the Third might be in this set.?
Geoff Hays

Son of a 3rd AC pilot

The center( sq tipped Ham Stnd prop) displays theater bands too, altough I would venture the Texas Longhorn had also,

Phil marchese · January 17, 2011

The P-51D in the photo has the markings very similar to those carried by the 3rd Fighter Squadron, 3rd Air Commandos (the letter on eth vertical tail is the clue). If so, at least some of thee might have been taken on Ie Shima. The 3rd Air Commandos staged there from the Philippines to support OPERATION OLYMPIC. Wonder what other images of the Third might be in this set.?
Geoff Hays

Son of a 3rd AC pilot

The center( sq tipped Ham Stnd prop) displays theater bands too, altough I would venture the Texas Longhorn had also,

Phil marchese · January 17, 2011

Ah, but believe it or not, at least one unit assigned to 8th AF HQ Pacific DID see combat under their auspices before the cessation of hostilities.
The 507th Fighter Group was assigned to the 8th AF, PTO before the end of the war (I believe they were transferred the last week of July). The reason I bring this up is that one of the uniforms in my collection belonged to a 507th pilot and he's got an 8th AF combat patch, but never served in the ETO. He flew 11 combat missions off of Ie Shima in July/August 1945 in P-47Ns with the 465th FS. I've spoken to him at length and we correspond regularly, and he is absolutely adamant that they were assigned to the 8th AF, not the 20th.

The vast majority of the the AAF in the Pacific (vice Asia) reorganized 16 July 1945. The USSAF formed as the strategic arm with the 8th & 20 AF while the FEAF added the 7th AF to the 5th and 13 AF. This would be the first time the FORWARD elements of the 7th AF were under AAF operational control. Previously all FORWARD elements were under the USN CINC via a USMC Commander of land based air forces. However the VII FC had come under the 20th AF. So here is my question, the answer should prove interesting, was the 507 th FG under the VII FC or the VIII FC while assigned to the 8th AF (Pacific)? My guess is the former (i.e. VII (7th) FC). Be interested in the answer.

Phil M.

Cobrahistorian · January 17, 2011

Phil,

It's my understanding that by the end of July 45, units were being assigned to 8th AF HQ, but VIII FC hadn't been reestablished yet. My research focuses on 9th and 12th AF, so I'm gonna have to do some digging here, but I'm fairly certain that's how it went. I really would love to find the orders officially assigning the 507th to the 8th AF so I could confirm the exact date.

I was absolutely fascinated though when I received this uniform. It isn't every day that you find a uniform with an 8th Air Force right-sleeve patch and a PTO ribbon with 3 battle stars and it is actually correct!

Chuck1945 · January 17, 2011

On a bit of a different note, any comments on accuracy for the Special Hobby Mustang I kit? A local shop has it for $21, so I was thinking of grabbing it.

If you can find it, the Academy P-51 (cannon version of the Allison Mustangs) is perhaps the best choice for an Allison engined one in 1/72. The MPM/SH is one of the earlier kits out of the Czech Republic, and while, as I sort of recall, it has the basic shape pretty good, and does represent an ealier version than does the Academy kit, you will probably still need a second P-51 kit just for usable detail parts such as landing gear.

Greenshirt · January 18, 2011

Here is hoping I can find the Czechmaster Resin kit. Hasn't been easy thus far.

Jason,

West Coast Hobbies has the CMR kit: Linky

Regards,

Tim

Phil marchese · January 18, 2011

Phil,
It's my understanding that by the end of July 45, units were being assigned to 8th AF HQ, but VIII FC hadn't been reestablished yet. My research focuses on 9th and 12th AF, so I'm gonna have to do some digging here, but I'm fairly certain that's how it went. I really would love to find the orders officially assigning the 507th to the 8th AF so I could confirm the exact date.

I was absolutely fascinated though when I received this uniform. It isn't every day that you find a uniform with an 8th Air Force right-sleeve patch and a PTO ribbon with 3 battle stars and it is actually correct!

Where is the offical version:

http://bobrowen.com/nymas/usaaf8.html

Back up from part 8 as required to find 507.. The VIIIBC became the 8th when the USSTAF was formed. VII and VIII bc are in the Command seciton too.

Western Pacific and Ryrukus would be two campagins of the four his ribbiom represend. Air Offensive Japan a third and likily the China Offensive ( below) .

I was incorrect in thinging it was VII FC... apparently it was not. Looks loike it was direct assignment to 20th AF. in most of July/ August. The 20th AF moves to FEAF at some point post-war. Two BG or the 316 BW were working up and may have reach Okinawaw. Try 382nd as one and maybe 333 Bg. The correct ones will be at the 316 Bg ( part 8 and at the specific Gphistories to find which two.).

507th Fighter Group

Constituted as 507th Fighter Group on 5 Oct 1944 and activated on 12 Oct. Moved to the Asiatic-Pacific Theater, Apr-Jun 1945. Assigned to Twentieth AF; reassigned to Eighth AF in Aug 1945. Entered combat on 1 Jul 1945, operating from Ie Shima with P-47's. Flew missions to Japan, Korea, and China to attack such targets as shipping, railroad bridges, airfields, factories, and barracks. Met little fighter opposition until 8 Aug 1945 when the group, flying its only B-29 escort mission of the war, encountered many enemy planes over Yawata, Japan. Received a DUC for its performance on 13 Aug 1945: while flying a long-range sweep to Korea, the group engaged a host of interceptors and destroyed a number of them. Moved to Okinawa in Jan 1946. Inactivated on 27 May 1946.

Redesignated 507th Fighter Group (Air Defense). Activated on 18 Aug 1955. Assigned to Air Defense Command and equipped with F-89's.

Squadrons. 438th: 1955-. 463d: 1944-1946. 464th: 1944-1946. 465th: 1944-1946.

Stations. Peterson Field, Colo, 12 Oct 1944; Bruning AAFld, Neb, 20 Oct 1944; Dalhart AAFld, Tex, 15 Dec 1944-24 Apr 1945; Ie Shima, 24 Jun 1945; Yontan, Okinawa, 29 Jan-27 May 1946. Kinross AFB, Mich, 18 Aug 1955-.

Commanders. Col Loring F Stetson Jr, 27 Oct 1944; Lt Col Woodrow W Korges, 12 Sep 1945; Maj Byron H Foreman, 2 Nov 1945; Capt Franklin L Fisher, 20 Nov 1945-unkn. Col John L Locke, 1955-.

Campaigns. Air Offensive, Japan; Western Pacific; Ryukyus; China Offensive.

Decorations. Distinguished Unit Citation: Korea, 13 Aug 1945.

Insigne. Shield: Azure, edged argent, over a point pointed in point bendwise and arched gules, fimbriated of the second, a falcon flying downward per bend argent; between two planets and a star in sinister chief, and the Great Dipper in dexter base all proper. Motto: Defendimus Usque Ad Astra - We Defend Even to the Stars. (Approved 17 Aug 1956.)

VII Bomber Command

Constituted as VII Bomber Command on 23 Jan 1942 and activated in Hawaii on 29 Jan. Assigned to Hawaiian (later Seventh) AF. Engaged in patrol operations from Hawaii until late in 1943. Afterward, served in combat in the Central and Western Pacific. Inactivated on Okinawa, [31] Mar 1946. Disbanded on 8 Oct 1948.

Groups. 5th: 1942. 11th: 1942, 1943-1945. 30th: 1943-1945. 41st: 1943-1944, 1945. 307th: 1942-1943. 312th: 1945. 345th: 1945. 380th: 1945. 494th: 1944-1945.

Stations. Hickam Field, TH, 29 Jan 1942; Funafuti, Nov 1943; Tarawa, Jan 1944; Kwajalein, Mar 1944; Saipan, Aug 1944; Okinawa, Jul 1945-Mar 1946.

Commanders. Maj Gen Willis H Hale, Feb 1942; Col Albert F Hegenberger, 20 Jun 1942; Brig Gen William E Lynd, 25 Jun 1942; Brig Gen Truman H Landon, 20 Jan 1 943; Brig Gen Lawrence J Carr, 11 Dec 1944; Col Roy D Butler, Oct 1945; Brig Gen Carl B McDaniel, 1 Dec 1945; Col John J Morrow, 7 Jan 1946-unkn.

Campaigns. Central Pacific; Air Offensive, Japan; Eastern Mandates; Western Pacific; Ryukyus; China Offensive.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Phil marchese

Phil marchese · January 18, 2011

Phil,
It's my understanding that by the end of July 45, units were being assigned to 8th AF HQ, but VIII FC hadn't been reestablished yet. My research focuses on 9th and 12th AF, so I'm gonna have to do some digging here, but I'm fairly certain that's how it went. I really would love to find the orders officially assigning the 507th to the 8th AF so I could confirm the exact date.

I was absolutely fascinated though when I received this uniform. It isn't every day that you find a uniform with an 8th Air Force right-sleeve patch and a PTO ribbon with 3 battle stars and it is actually correct!

Where is the offical version:

http://bobrowen.com/nymas/usaaf8.html

Back up from part 8 as required to find 507.. The VIIIBC became the 8th when the USSTAF was formed. VII and VIII bc are in the Command seciton too.

Western Pacific and Ryrukus would be two campagins of the four his ribbiom represend. Air Offensive Japan a third and likily the China Offensive ( below) .

I was incorrect in thinging it was VII FC... apparently it was not. Looks loike it was direct assignment to 20th AF. in most of July/ August. The 20th AF moves to FEAF at some point To BG or the 316 BW were working up and may have reach Okinawaw. Try 382nd as one.