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1970s, 80s F-4D ordnance and fuel options


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I'm considering an F-4D project, and have several decal markings options, including SEA from during and after Vietnam, and EURO I. This includes, incidently, Revell Germany's stunning new sheet boxed with their rendition of Monogram's classic kit. But I'd like to consider getting away from the classic warloads: 4x4 AIM-7/9s and iron bombs. I'm aware that some F-4Ds were equipped to carry PAVE SPIKE, but haven't found good pictures of these specific airframes to know if I can cobble together markings for an accurate rendition (and I doubt I will). I think some in Vietnam carried paveway bombs for lasing F-4Es, but I like to stay away from builds that don't demonstrate the entire system (that is, include the targeting pod). I have several books on F-4Es but none on their older sisters.

Did F-4Ds begin carrying ALQ-119s in the 1980s?

How late did the U.S. Air Force continue to employ gun pods on their gun-less F-4s? All the way to the end of service? Or did they phase out gun pods before the jets?

Did I read somewhere that USAF started using F-15 tanks on F-4s? Or did I dream that, asleep after eating pizza too late at night?

I suppose cluster munitions and rockets are an option, but they look so clunky!

Edited by Fishwelding
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I'm considering an F-4D project, and have several decal markings options, including SEA from during and after Vietnam, and EURO I. This includes, incidently, Revell Germany's stunning new sheet boxed with their rendition of Monogram's classic kit. But I'd like to consider getting away from the classic warloads: 4x4 AIM-7/9s and iron bombs. I'm aware that some F-4Ds were equipped to carry PAVE SPIKE, but haven't found good pictures of these specific airframes to know if I can cobble together markings for an accurate rendition (and I doubt I will). I think some in Vietnam carried paveway bombs for lasing F-4Es, but I like to stay away from builds that don't demonstrate the entire system (that is, include the targeting pod). I have several books on F-4Es but none on their older sisters.

Did F-4Ds begin carrying ALQ-119s in the 1980s?

How late did the U.S. Air Force continue to employ gun pods on their gun-less F-4s? All the way to the end of service? Or did they phase out gun pods before the jets?

Did I read somewhere that USAF started using F-15 tanks on F-4s? Or did I dream that, asleep after eating pizza too late at night?

I suppose cluster munitions and rockets are an option, but they look so clunky!

Only question I can answer for sure is #3. Yes, they started to use F-15 tanks on Phantoms sometime in the mid/late 80's. From what I read, the Eagle tanks were rated for more G's.

Edit - the tank in question was the centerline one only, not the wing tanks.

Edited by 11bee
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Fish:

From the Vietnam War there are several interesting loadout options:

Pave Knife pod on the left inboard, GBU-10's on the left outboard and right inboard along with a fuel tank on the right outboard.

Two GBU-8's on inboards and tanks on the outboards.

SUU-42 flare dispensers on the outboards (looks like a rocket), 2 M36 cluster bombs on TER's on the inboards with a centerline tank.

From what I've seen and others can confirm it they carried sparrows in the rear wells and ECM pods in the forward ones.

What scale are you working in?

Mark S.

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I suppose the main purpose of the Euro I camo was so the Phantoms could go hunting in...... EUROPE! That means tanks, and tanks mean Mavericks. In my copy of Phantoms Forever, there is a nice color shot of some DC Guard F-4Ds in flight with both AGM-65s and centerline gun pod all decked out in EuroI. I've assembled all the necessary bits to do this in 1/32 except the markings and the Mavericks. I need 1/32 Mavericks. Anybody know where to get 1/32 Mavericks?

Rick L.

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Fish:

From the Vietnam War there are several interesting loadout options:

Pave Knife pod on the left inboard, GBU-10's on the left outboard and right inboard along with a fuel tank on the right outboard.

Two GBU-8's on inboards and tanks on the outboards.

SUU-42 flare dispensers on the outboards (looks like a rocket), 2 M36 cluster bombs on TER's on the inboards with a centerline tank.

From what I've seen and others can confirm it they carried sparrows in the rear wells and ECM pods in the forward ones.

What scale are you working in?

Mark S.

1/48th. It's the Monogram kit. The Pave Knife option sounds interesting, actually.

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Wow, hey, look at that! Pave Spike, Paveway I bomb, ALQ-119 and...something else I can't identify!

Fish,

Looks like an SUU-21/A dispenser; although, I've never seen one with the blunt aft end. The air defense F-4 units carried gun pods up till the end, but I'm not sure about the air to ground units.

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph
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I'm considering an F-4D project, and have several decal markings options, including SEA from during and after Vietnam, and EURO I. This includes, incidently, Revell Germany's stunning new sheet boxed with their rendition of Monogram's classic kit. But I'd like to consider getting away from the classic warloads: 4x4 AIM-7/9s and iron bombs. I'm aware that some F-4Ds were equipped to carry PAVE SPIKE, but haven't found good pictures of these specific airframes to know if I can cobble together markings for an accurate rendition (and I doubt I will). I think some in Vietnam carried paveway bombs for lasing F-4Es, but I like to stay away from builds that don't demonstrate the entire system (that is, include the targeting pod). I have several books on F-4Es but none on their older sisters.

One of the options in the RoG boxing is a Spangdahlem bird, and these carried the Pave Spike pod too.

Click me

Did F-4Ds begin carrying ALQ-119s in the 1980s?

Here's a Bentwaters/Woodbridge F-4D with a AN/ALQ-119 in 1978.

How late did the U.S. Air Force continue to employ gun pods on their gun-less F-4s? All the way to the end of service? Or did they phase out gun pods before the jets?

There are pics of ANG F-4D's in the 1980's deployed to Ramstein, when the local squadrons switched from F-4E's to F-16's. They still carried the gunpod in those days.

Here's one Click. Note the Oregon ANG gunpod on a Minnesota ANG plane.

Did I read somewhere that USAF started using F-15 tanks on F-4s? Or did I dream that, asleep after eating pizza too late at night?

Correct, check this Michigan ANG bird. (pic taken by David Brown, known as Sig Sauer & Son here on ARC)

I suppose cluster munitions and rockets are an option, but they look so clunky!

You could use Mavericks too, I haven't seen many pics of CBU's or rocket pods being used during peacetime.

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One of the options in the RoG boxing is a Spangdahlem bird, and these carried the Pave Spike pod too.

Click me

Here's a Bentwaters/Woodbridge F-4D with a AN/ALQ-119 in 1978.

There are pics of ANG F-4D's in the 1980's deployed to Ramstein, when the local squadrons switched from F-4E's to F-16's. They still carried the gunpod in those days.

Here's one Click. Note the Oregon ANG gunpod on a Minnesota ANG plane.

Correct, check this Michigan ANG bird. (pic taken by David Brown, known as Sig Sauer & Son here on ARC)

You could use Mavericks too, I haven't seen many pics of CBU's or rocket pods being used during peacetime.

Great stuff! Wow, this thread became a massive awesome attack on my question!

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I need 1/32 Mavericks. Anybody know where to get 1/32 Mavericks?

Rick L.

I got some AGM-65s for an F-4E from Trumpeter's A-7 and the LAU-88 from Trumpeter’s A-10. There are also some in Academy’s F/A-18s and F-16s as well.

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How late did the U.S. Air Force continue to employ gun pods on their gun-less F-4s? All the way to the end of service? Or did they phase out gun pods before the jets?

Did I read somewhere that USAF started using F-15 tanks on F-4s? Or did I dream that, asleep after eating pizza too late at night?

I suppose cluster munitions and rockets are an option, but they look so clunky!

I was at Ramstein in the 526 TFS/AMU when the ANG deployed six F-4Ds to take over our QRA (Zulu) alert commitment during the 86 TFW change over to F-16Cs and Ds from F-4Es. I worked on the F-4Es. There were two each F-4Ds from Fresno, California, Happy Hooligans (North Dakota) and Minnesota (Duluth). They kept two up on QRA while the other four were used for local training sorties. The F-4Ds carried four AIM-9P-3 Sidewinders, four AIM-7E-2 or F model Sparrows, two 370 gallon wing tanks and a centerline gun pod. That was in late 1985 through 1987. The deployment was code-named Creek Klaxon.

The F-15-style 600 gallon High Performance Centerline tank was not interchangeable with the tanks the F-15s carried, though they looked pretty much the same. The suspension lugs were different, and the fuel and tank pressurization air hook ups were likewise different between the F-4 and F-15. Our F-4Es at Ramstein were modified to carry the High Performance Centerlines in 1985 as I recall. They were originally used on F-4Gs starting a few years earlier, and were so successful that the entire USAF and Luftwaffe F-4 fleet was eventually modified to use this tank. I personally hated them as they were a pain to move around while launching out the jet, but the aircrews loved them as they could take more Gs than the 370s and caused slightly less drag as well. The High Performance Centerline was mounted directly to the bomb rack built into the belly of the F-4, there was no pylon. There was a rectangular structure added to the center keel of the jet at the back of the tank that a pivot mounted on the tank's fin was engaged with; this pivot ensured the tank separated from the airplane by swinging nose down until the pivot disengaged from the rectangular thingy, so the tank wouldn't hit the bottom of the jet. The old Royal Jet tank used before the High Perfomance Centerline had occasionally hung up in the airflow under the jet and collided with parts of the jet during jettisons. The High Performance Centerline had a much larger speed and maneuvering envelope for jettison than the Royal Jet tank. Aircraft that were modified could carry either centerline tank, though it became quite rare to see the old Royal Jet tanks.

Scott Wilson

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The 8th TFW F-4D with the tail code obscured would be WP coded and the yellow fin tip identifies it as belonging to the 80th TFS. This was taken before the markings were toned down with black replacing white. There would be an 8th TFW insignia behind the intake. A wolf's head was later added before the Wing insignia. Squadron insignias were carried on the baggage pod. The PACAF insignia on the tail looks rather dark and was usually lighter, kind of turquoise. The nose gear door (attached to the nose gear) had the bottom portion painted in the squadron colors. One difference between USAFE F-4s and PACAF F-4s was that on the USAFE F-4s, the plate before the intake usually had the bottom portion painted white. There are exceptions to that rule, though.

From about 81, some Wolfpack F-4Ds also had a small nickname stenciled on the colored part of the nose gear door.

Best wishes,

Grant

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The 8th TFW F-4D with the tail code obscured would be WP coded and the yellow fin tip identifies it as belonging to the 80th TFS. This was taken before the markings were toned down with black replacing white. There would be an 8th TFW insignia behind the intake. A wolf's head was later added before the Wing insignia. Squadron insignias were carried on the baggage pod. The PACAF insignia on the tail looks rather dark and was usually lighter, kind of turquoise. The nose gear door (attached to the nose gear) had the bottom portion painted in the squadron colors. One difference between USAFE F-4s and PACAF F-4s was that on the USAFE F-4s, the plate before the intake usually had the bottom portion painted white. There are exceptions to that rule, though.

From about 81, some Wolfpack F-4Ds also had a small nickname stenciled on the colored part of the nose gear door.

Best wishes,

Grant

Good stuff. I'll see what I can do to hone it down to an individual airframe. Right now, it's either that or A USAFE/Spang bird. But originally, I'd given up hope of positively identifying an F-4D equipped to carry PAVE SPIKE, so this thread has really made the project a whole lot more interesting to me. And since I've got a zillion -119 pods floating around from Monogram F-15s and A-10s, and Hasagawa Weaps sets, I'm glad for the chance to throw one of those aboard, too!

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I was at Ramstein in the 526 TFS/AMU when the ANG deployed six F-4Ds to take over our QRA (Zulu) alert commitment during the 86 TFW change over to F-16Cs and Ds from F-4Es. I worked on the F-4Es. There were two each F-4Ds from Fresno, California, Happy Hooligans (North Dakota) and Minnesota (Duluth). They kept two up on QRA while the other four were used for local training sorties. The F-4Ds carried four AIM-9P-3 Sidewinders, four AIM-7E-2 or F model Sparrows, two 370 gallon wing tanks and a centerline gun pod. That was in late 1985 through 1987. The deployment was code-named Creek Klaxon.

The F-15-style 600 gallon High Performance Centerline tank was not interchangeable with the tanks the F-15s carried, though they looked pretty much the same. The suspension lugs were different, and the fuel and tank pressurization air hook ups were likewise different between the F-4 and F-15. Our F-4Es at Ramstein were modified to carry the High Performance Centerlines in 1985 as I recall. They were originally used on F-4Gs starting a few years earlier, and were so successful that the entire USAF and Luftwaffe F-4 fleet was eventually modified to use this tank. I personally hated them as they were a pain to move around while launching out the jet, but the aircrews loved them as they could take more Gs than the 370s and caused slightly less drag as well. The High Performance Centerline was mounted directly to the bomb rack built into the belly of the F-4, there was no pylon. There was a rectangular structure added to the center keel of the jet at the back of the tank that a pivot mounted on the tank's fin was engaged with; this pivot ensured the tank separated from the airplane by swinging nose down until the pivot disengaged from the rectangular thingy, so the tank wouldn't hit the bottom of the jet. The old Royal Jet tank used before the High Perfomance Centerline had occasionally hung up in the airflow under the jet and collided with parts of the jet during jettisons. The High Performance Centerline had a much larger speed and maneuvering envelope for jettison than the Royal Jet tank. Aircraft that were modified could carry either centerline tank, though it became quite rare to see the old Royal Jet tanks.

Scott Wilson

Most interesting. Sounds like an F-15 tank in 1/48th might be "close enough," however, provided some reference photos showed some details of its attachment to the jet. Equally interesting is the Air Force's procedure to have stateside units cover alert obligations during the 86 TFW's changeover.

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I suppose the main purpose of the Euro I camo was so the Phantoms could go hunting in...... EUROPE! That means tanks, and tanks mean Mavericks. In my copy of Phantoms Forever, there is a nice color shot of some DC Guard F-4Ds in flight with both AGM-65s and centerline gun pod all decked out in EuroI. I've assembled all the necessary bits to do this in 1/32 except the markings and the Mavericks. I need 1/32 Mavericks. Anybody know where to get 1/32 Mavericks?

Rick L.

Just a minor correction, those weren't DC Guard F-4's, they were from the Reserve unit based at Wright-Pat...those gun pods were also interestingly enough Pave Claw 30mm guns....I guess this unit tested them and may have operationally used them as well as the Syracuse Guard F-16's....

Corey

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At Nellis AFB in 1979-80 the 474th TFW F-4D's typically carried two wing mounted 370 gallon tanks, a TER on an inboard pylon with three 500 lb bombs and three Maverick missles on the other inboard pylon. They also occasionally carried a gun pod on the centerline. Three bags (centerline and two wing tanks) were only used for ferry flights. It was the standard F-4 centerline tank, not the F-15 type which at that time was reserved for the G models.

I found this photo. It is identified as 430th TFS but is actually the 428th as their color was blue. The 429th was yellow and the 430th was red. Pretty typical load although there is no ordnance hung from the TER.

Clicky

Training load would be two 370 gallon wing tanks, a captive Maverick, and practice rounds in a SUU-20 dispenser.

Clicky

Here is another photo of 474th TFW (in this case 430th TFS) F-4D's in Panama, Feb. 1980.

Clicky

HTH ;)

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Just a word of caution if you're going for full weapons accuracy - not all AFRES/ANG units were equipped with F-4C/D's compatible with either Pave Spike and / or Maverick capabilites.

This list comes from "USAF Phantoms: Tactics, Training and Weapons" by Antony M. Thornborough (any typos are mine, though!):

Unit Type Capability*

113th TFS F-4C V

184th TFS F-4C V

196th TFS F-4C V

98th TFS F-4D M

83th TFS F-4D M

121st TFS F-4D P

127th TFS/177th TFTS F-4D V, P

160th TFS F-4D P

170th TFS F-4D M

457th TFS F-4D L

465th TFS F-4D M

704th TFS F-4D L

*: M: AGM-65 only; P: Pave Spike / AGM-65; L: LORAN Pave Phantom with Pave Spike / AGM-65; V=vanilla, no special capabilities.

HTH!,

Andre

Edited by Andre
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Good stuff. I'll see what I can do to hone it down to an individual airframe. Right now, it's either that or A USAFE/Spang bird. But originally, I'd given up hope of positively identifying an F-4D equipped to carry PAVE SPIKE, so this thread has really made the project a whole lot more interesting to me. And since I've got a zillion -119 pods floating around from Monogram F-15s and A-10s, and Hasagawa Weaps sets, I'm glad for the chance to throw one of those aboard, too!

Here's a 301 TFW, AFRES D-model at Carswell AFB that I photographed with a Spike pod at Carswell on April 30, 1983. A number of their jets had Spikes uploaded that day, I'll have to scan some more slides if this unit interests you.

Scott Wilson

66-8735CarswellApr3083ScottWilson.jpg

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Good stuff. I'll see what I can do to hone it down to an individual airframe. Right now, it's either that or A USAFE/Spang bird. But originally, I'd given up hope of positively identifying an F-4D equipped to carry PAVE SPIKE, so this thread has really made the project a whole lot more interesting to me. And since I've got a zillion -119 pods floating around from Monogram F-15s and A-10s, and Hasagawa Weaps sets, I'm glad for the chance to throw one of those aboard, too!

And what about Pave Spike carrying 704th TFS F-4Ds with their unique cloud grey camo:

http://www.5053phantoms.com/photos/display...p_display_media

http://www.5053phantoms.com/photos/display...p_display_media

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev3...al48025/03.shtm

Greetings

Diego

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I'm aware that some F-4Ds were equipped to carry PAVE SPIKE, but haven't found good pictures of these specific airframes to know if I can cobble together markings for an accurate rendition (and I doubt I will). I think some in Vietnam carried paveway bombs for lasing F-4Es, but I like to stay away from builds that don't demonstrate the entire system (that is, include the targeting pod).

During Vietnam the only "smart bomber" USAF F-4s were F-4Ds. The original "Zot Box" aircraft carried the designator mounted on the left inside rail of the WSO's canopy. The designator aircraft established itself in a left hand orbit around the target while the bomber aircraft dropped the LGB towards the target. This is how the "BOLT" M117 LGBs (shown in one of the previous posts) were dropped. Only about 100 BOLT 117s were made and they were found to be less accurate than the BOLT 84 Mk 84 LGBs. Zot box operations were limited to low threat areas. The first self designation capabilty (that allowed operations in high threat areas) was provided by the PAVE Knife pods, which were carried on the left inboard pylon. A reading of Marshall Michel's excellent book "Clashes" reveals that the entire Operation Linebacker bombing campaign was built around the six PAVE Knife pods and 12 F-4Ds modified to carry them! (In all, over 25,000 LGBs were dropped during the Vietnam War.) Towards the end of the Vietnam War a (very) few aircraft were modified to evaluate the front-left Sparrow bay mounted PAVE Spike pods, and after the war this became the pod of choice for Phantoms (both Ds and Es). The centerline mounted PAVE Tack was the first night-capable laser designator, but it was only fitted to RF-4Cs and F-4Es and not until the early 1980s.

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Unit Type Capability*

113th TFS F-4C V

184th TFS F-4C V

196th TFS F-4C V

98th TFS F-4D M

83th TFS F-4D M

121st TFS F-4D P

127th TFS/177th TFTS F-4D V, P

160th TFS F-4D P

170th TFS F-4D M

457th TFS F-4D L

465th TFS F-4D M

704th TFS F-4D L

*: M: AGM-65 only; P: Pave Spike / AGM-65; L: LORAN Pave Phantom with Pave Spike / AGM-65; V=vanilla, no special capabilities.

Hi Andre, I compiled that list 23 years ago, based on info. from "Mr F-4 Maintenance" John J. Harty! Brings back memories!

Scott, would love to see more 457th TFS/301st TFW F-4D pix - they were always my favourites. Some of the artwork was unique.

Interesting load-outs I saw in one form or another, in pics., included Pave Spike (with optional ALQ-119 on forward right Sparrow well area), SUU-23/A gunpod on the centreline, 370 wing tanks and flat-two GBU-12/Bs (500lb Paveway IIs) on TERs on the inner wing pylons.

Remember that a lot of those aircraft had the 'Herpes mod' ALR-69 RWR fit to the radome 'donkey dong' and dragchute door by then, and the rear swivel attachment device for the high-speed tank, whether carrying an F-15-type tank or SUU-23 gunpod. Oh, and ALE-40 chaff/flare dispensers on the back of the inner wing pylons. If you do a Towel Rail ARN-92 machine, it just adds to the menacing look!

Cheers

Tony T

Edited by tony.t
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