1/32 Tamiya F-4E post-Vietnam- Kicked up a notch.

[chuck540z3]

Here now is how things fit together, using only gravity to hold things together, after LOTS of sanding and dry fitting. Not bad if I do say myself and when glued down during final assembly, things should snug up even more. I re-scribed every panel line and re-punched every rivet as well....

The other side again....

Note the flush fit to the rear, which is critical because it's supposed to part of the drag chute area, not hanging out above it. It also shows why I didn't cut out the rudder. Sometimes simpler is better.....

The front vent has been thinned up a bit and I even drilled a small hole in the ram air inlet above the red beacon, which I painted the inside of with clear red and just slipped in....

A more direct shot from the front, showing how thinning the blades and cleaning up the front really opens up the vent like the real deal....

Thanks for your continued interest in this build. I hope you're learning as much as I am!

Edited November 8, 2011 by chuck540z3

[agelos2005]

WOW!!!

as always amazing updates!!!

is it possible to show as the inside of the vertical fin to copmare it with the first shots so we can see how much you removed from the base?

cheers

[mareku]

Great update and fantastic job done

Edited November 8, 2011 by mareku

[HOLMES]

Chuck,

I have been a little remiss in MY following this thread.

I am absolutely AMAZED by the level of your scratchbuilding

and detailed workmanship.

I had missed the Vulcan gun and seeing it, I thought that it was SO REAL that I kept looking at it..

WONDERFUL , MAGINIFCENT detailing on it simply makes you think it is not a model.I am glad that I saw it being built as

as I have never seen such high quality work as on this ..The weathering on it pure joy to see.

You have done so much work since I last came that I felt excited to see the cockpit work et al...JUST PERFECT AND OUTSTANDING work Sir.

And of course as your thread unfolds{ VERY QUICKLY May I add !} ONE can see what the model is looking like......SUPERB.

AWESOME....KUDOS ..{And if you go to the show with this ONE, you shoudo win ALL the categories !!!}

Edited November 8, 2011 by HOLMES

[chuck540z3]

WOW!!!

as always amazing updates!!!

is it possible to show as the inside of the vertical fin to copmare it with the first shots so we can see how much you removed from the base?

cheers

Thanks and good point. Here's a pic from the bottom to show the beveling of the bottom. The best way is to do each side separately before gluing them together. Be careful to avoid sanding the outer edge, which is where there is some nice rivet detail you can barely see on the left. I used a #11 knife to cut around that post.....

While I'm at it, here's another pic of the front vent before I thinned down the fins a bit. I could have thinned them some more, but there comes a point where strength trumps optics and I didn't want it falling apart, especially since it sticks out at the front so far and is vulnerable to damage....

Edited November 8, 2011 by chuck540z3

[zaxos345]

I will note it again, AMAZING MODELLING AND TUTORIAL!!!! Great skills Chuck, i admire your attention to every little detail.

John

[agelos2005]

thanks mate!

[Scott R Wilson]

The front vent has been thinned up a bit and I even drilled a small hole in the ram air inlet above the red beacon, which I painted the inside of with clear red and just slipped in....

The little tube just above the anti-collision beacon is the bellows probe. The reason for its existance is actually pretty interesting; as you can imagine, as the aircraft speeds up, the stabilator becomes increasingly more effective for a given change in the stab's pitch angle. In order for a given amount of pull on the control stick to cause the same amount of aircraft pitch change no matter the aircraft's speed, the linkage between the stick and actuator is adjusted by a bellows mounted in the rear fuselage. The ram air going into the bellows probe inflates the bellows more and more the faster the jet goes, so a given stick pull or push will move the actuator input correspondingly less and less. So at higher speeds pulling the stick back moves the stabilator less than moving the stick the same amount at a slower speed. We had one F-4E that had just come off the washrack, and on it's first flight after being washed it turned out no one remembered to remove the tape covering the bellows probe opening (put there before washing the jet to keep the water and detergent out), and the crew chief, pilot during his walkaround, and EOR crew all missed seeing it. When the aircraft took off, the bellows was at zero airspeed of course, and the pilot had to bring it back and immediately land. Even at pattern speed, the pilot said he had a lot of difficulty not overcontrolling and porpoising the jet.

There is also a bobweight in the stabilator control assembly back by the bellows linkage, so that as you pull the stick you're pulling against the weight and with more Gs it becomes increasingly harder to pull back on the stick, which also helps prevent overcontrolling the jet.

The rudder is the only flight control that has a direct linkage from the cockpit to the control surface, so pushing on the rudder pedals will move the rudder even with no hydraulic pressure applied. By contrast, moving the stick will not move the ailerons or stabilator without hydraulic pressure. The stick and, I believe, the rudder pedals have bungees or springs attached to their linkages to return them to neutral, so unless there is a really stiff breeze blowing from the side the rudder will always be neutral. Pushing the rudder pedals with no hydraulics takes some muscle, the pedals don't move all that easily and do go back to neutral when you release them from what I recall. The control stick likewise is always straight up with no hydraulics applied, no matter what position the stabilator is in. The stab stays where it was when the engines shut down, so it can be in any position, but the stick won't correspond to it.

The anti-collision beacon light lens is red colored glass. It should be a darker red than in your photos, though I guess the lighting used for your photo might make it look brighter than it really is.

The air intake at the front base of the vertical fin is for rear fuselage cooling; the air exhausts from those vents on either side of the end of the tail hook. The intake is different for the F-4E, F, G, J and S versus all the other Phantom versions. I was pleased to see Tamiya had the correct intake for the F-4E (and I presume the same part is in the F-4J kit). Chuck did an excellent job of making it look more real, the kit part is indeed too thick, both the vertical partition and the horizontal splitter(?- I don't know what else to call it)

Edited November 9, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[Scott R Wilson]

Man, I gotta check my photos <before> I post- the rudder does stay where you put it, doesn't spring back to neutral. I found numerous photos in my collection with the rudder deflected, no one in the cockpit to hold the pedals, and apparently little or no wind. My 25 year old memories are maybe a little faulty at times?

Scott W.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[chuck540z3]

The anti-collision beacon light lens is red colored glass. It should be a darker red than in your photos, though I guess the lighting used for your photo might make it look brighter than it really is.

The air intake at the front base of the vertical fin is for rear fuselage cooling; the air exhausts from those vents on either side of the end of the tail hook. The intake is different for the F-4E, F, G, J and S versus all the other Phantom versions. I was pleased to see Tamiya had the correct intake for the F-4E (and I presume the same part is in the F-4J kit). Chuck did an excellent job of making it look more real, the kit part is indeed too thick, both the vertical partition and the horizontal splitter(?- I don't know what else to call it)

Thanks again for all that technical stuff Scott, which now officially makes this "our thread". It's really cool to have experts along for the ride when I post a WIP thread, because it makes it all that more interesting for everyone to read- including me. "Finn" was a great help during my CF-18B build and "Red Dog" kept me on the straight and narrow on my F-14B project. Both models came out way better and more accurate than I could have done on my own and I have all you experts to thank for that.

Thinning that front vent was a real bear to get it thinner without having it fall apart, so I wound up with it a little thicker than I'd like, but still strong enough to hold it's own if it should get bumped. I'll darken that navigation light a bit and as far as the rudder position goes, I found that about 75% of the pics I reviewed had it in the neutral position and even for those that had it to one side (usually starboard), it was only tilted a few degrees. I'm sure someone has a pic of it bent almost sideways, but since I'm leaving this sucker as is, I don't want to see it!

I had a lot of fun with all the formation lights last night and after several screw-ups and a few good saves, I think things will come out looking pretty good in the slime light department. I'm also fixing and straightening a few panels lines that somehow came out slightly crooked along the way and I'm adding some detail I left off until the last moment prior to PAINTING!! Yes, my favorite part of modeling is about to commence. Watch me drag this step out for months like I always do! Meanwhile, I have lots of gear doors, fuel tanks, pylons and bomb dispensers to assemble and deal with, which I usually don't like to do.

Edited November 9, 2011 by chuck540z3

[Eastern]

Hi Chuck,

As always following from one of your post to another with pleasure. Great job so far!

You make a real recearch while through this build.

I think you have all the credentials to make your current build to be a real "Diva" of the contest. ;)

Eager to see her complete in all her Glory.

Cheers and happy modeling!

Alexander

[Scott R Wilson]

Here's a couple of more detail photos I took oh so long ago that I thought might be useful. These were prints I'd stashed away and pretty much forgotten since 99 percent of my photos are slides. The photo of the wing was chewed by a cat we used to have, fortunately not damaged too much.

And here's a close-up of the bellows probe and anti-collision light on the derelict F-4C at Hardwood Bombing Range, Wisconsin (also scanned from a print):

Edited November 10, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[chuck540z3]

Hi Chuck,

As always following from one of your post to another with pleasure. Great job so far!

You make a real recearch while through this build.

I think you have all the credentials to make your current build to be a real "Diva" of the contest. ;)

Eager to see her complete in all her Glory.

Cheers and happy modeling!

Alexander

Very kind words coming from a Master like yourself. Thanks Alexander!

And here's a close-up of the bellows probe and anti-collision light on the derelict F-4C at Hardwood Bombing Range, Wisconsin (also scanned from a print):

Thanks Scott- those pics are, as my kids would say, "Money!" Should I paint the edges of that light silver like the pic? The pics in Jake's book are just painted like the rest of the stab.

Now for those formation lights or "Slime Lights" as they are often called. If you're doing a Vietnam era F-4, these lights might not be present, so check your references since they were added in the mid-70's. My 1980 bird does, so here's how the Eduard ones look on the in takes. This time the length is about right, but once you glue them on and insert the light strip, they stick out too far!....

This is caused by the fact they are slightly too thick in the first place and once you have any glue at all on the inside of the strip, there isn't enough room for them to stay flush. What to do?

Reference pics show that the light strip itself is slightly recessed in the light frame, which does protrude outward quite noticeably, so the Eduard light frames, at least, are correct for scale and much better than the kit stickers. Since I can't use the Eduard lights any more, the next best option is to fill the frame with something and then either use a decal or paint the light later. The best option turned out to be the kit stickers after all- cut then inserted into the frame. All better now- and almost flush leaving room for a thick decal or paint!

There's a couple more lights on the lower front of the fuselage, just under the front windscreen.....

The other intake....

...and a close-up of same....

I did the same trick on the vertical stabilizers as well......

While I was at it, I fixed a number of boo-boos that were OK 6 months ago, but just don't cut it now. Remember those high panels mistakenly called "BDR" panels I sanded off on the resin intakes? Well, re-scribing panels on resin can be tricky because it often chips, leaving a ragged edge. Here's the old pic that noted new panel lines I added to the DMold intakes. It also shows a flaw in just about any intake for this kit you can find at the end of that purple line- including the kit part itself! Since resin makers use the kit as a starting point for their conversion products, this panel line wobble remains for some reason in the resin parts(Chris (Zactoman) would have removed it!). I also did a bad job of adding those new small panels near the front....

After some filling with CA glue and rescribing the poor panel lines, I stuck on a few of those thin panels supplied with the Nautilus belly brace to replace the missing panels. Many pics show that these panels are raised, while some pics show them to be flush, presumably whether or not they had been removed and then replaced with sealant as Scott has suggested earlier. Anyway, I think they look a lot better now, they are accurate (sometimes) and they are a lot better than what I could re-scribe in this brittle resin. I sanded the vinyl down slightly to remove the harsh edges and due to the clear nature of the CA glue, some of the old lines filled with a dark wash are still present. Trust me, they are now gone!......

[blunce]

It's a full time job keeping up with you Chuck! I've only scratched the surface of this one and already some gems of information to be had. Don't know how I missed this build in the last year! I've got 21 more pages to read through. Thanks for keeping me busy!

Oh, and looking amazing so far, but what else would it be!

-Brian

Edited November 10, 2011 by blunce

[chuck540z3]

Another last minute detail I left for the end is to add that little antenna on Door 19 right behind the cockpit. It was first pointed out to us by the handsome young devil sitting on top of an F-4E in Germany below. It is the "SST-181X beacon antenna", just to the right of that large circular IFF antenna, which is a unique position for F-4E's (upper right). The kit one was located right behind the IFF antenna and was cut off earlier.

Remember this guy? (Hint: Don't argue with him about F-4's or you'll lose!)

Yes that's Scott. I bet his belly isn't so hard these days! :P

To replicate the small antenna and base plate that goes with it, I made a circular plate out of thick foil and the antenna out of some small steel rod. To shape the top of the antenna to create a bit of a knob on top like the real deal (see page 118 of Jake's book), I used a Dremel tool as sort of a lathe to grind off a thinner collar near the top. Anyway, I think it looks OK and it's certainly strong since it's made of hard steel drilled into the fuselage, then glued.....

Next up is a full clean-up of the entire model, a few more small details, then a full mask job to hide everything that isn't going to be painted in SEA camo paint. BTW, since I can't edit older posts for some new reason, I want to point out that a lot of those gaps like the leading edge of the wings are not cracks, but filled with clear CA glue then sanded, so you can still see the old gap.

Thanks for your continued support of this project.

Edited November 10, 2011 by chuck540z3

[jmel]

Can't wait to see some paint on this monster, Chuck. It's been really fun watching it progress.

Jake

[mareku]

With Jake here

[Janissary]

Chuck and Scott. This is probably the best and most informative WIP I have ever seen. The progress has been flawless with great visuals and supporting info. Even the model companies have a lot to learn from this. Can't wait to see it finished.

[Scott R Wilson]

Thanks Scott- those pics are, as my kids would say, "Money!" Should I paint the edges of that light silver like the pic? The pics in Jake's book are just painted like the rest of the stab.

I'm guessing you meant that tongue in cheek, but actually you can find a lot of F-4s with the metal frame around the anti-collision light lens left unpainted. Here's some I took photos of F-4Es with the frame unpainted:

And there were quite a few F-4Es with the bellows probe unpainted, and some with both the light frame and bellows unpainted:

But many also had both the probe and light frame painted:

But judging from the photos I've seen of 68-0393 at TAM 80, both should be painted on your model. However if you want to add a little "artistic license", who's to say the jet didn't get a new anti-collision beacon lens or bellows probe that was left unpainted after those photos were taken?

Note the bellows probe is painted in this July 1981 photo I took of 68-0386:

And yet two years later when I photographed 68-0386 again at Zaragoza, the bellows probe had been replaced and was unpainted:

Edited November 10, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[nimrod77]

AS others have said, This is a very informative thread! Always good for later reference! Please guys don't remove the photo's from here! They are a wealth of knowledge down the track.

Cheers!!

[blunce]

Was the rudder replaced on this A/C at some point? The hard vert. line at the end of the v. stab is inconsistant with the same color camo on the rudder.

[Scott R Wilson]

Was the rudder replaced on this A/C at some point? The hard vert. line at the end of the v. stab is inconsistant with the same color camo on the rudder.

Yes it's a new rudder, compare the paint to the July 1981 photo. Phantoms had a problem with the rudders and stabilators delaminating, so stab and rudder changes were not uncommon. McDonnell even experimented with a rudder made of beryllium trying to solve the issue, but that metal has some very bad toxicity problems so it never went into production. The fin caps were made of fiberglass and also were changed for damage and delamination frequently, so it was possible a non-ARN-101 F-4Es might have the old APS-107 RHAW antenna at the trailing edge for a few years, then not have it for a few years, then have it again. Here's some more Phantoms from Ramstein with obvious rudder changes (Chuck, I'm NOT trying to hijack your thread here!)

Original rudder on 69-0278, August 16 1983:

Changed rudder and stab, photographed on Sept 18, 1985:

Original rudder on 68-0465, November 12, 1983:

With changed rudder, Sept 19, 1985:

Original fincap on 69-0260, no APS-107 "football" at trailing edge, August 16, 1983:

New fin cap with "football" antenna (sorry it's kind of hard to see), Sept 11, 1985:

Edited November 11, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[chuck540z3]

(Chuck, I'm NOT trying to hijack your thread here!)

You can't hijack a thread that is already partly yours! We're all loving the pics and info, so keep it coming any time you want! Those pics are Gold, BTW, for my upcoming painting.

BTW, If you check pics of 68-0393 during TAM 80 it has the "football" rear antenna. Dang! I wish I'd known that this was a possibility earlier and I could have easily changed it. Too late now, since I really spent a lot of time getting the "usual" fin cap attached with lots of CA glue since there was lots of gaps. Oh well, a contest judge likely would have docked me a point for an "incorrect" fin cap anyway. ;)

Edited November 11, 2011 by chuck540z3

[Scott R Wilson]

You can't hijack a thread that is already partly yours! We're all loving the pics and info, so keep it coming any time you want! Those pics are Gold, BTW, for my upcoming painting.

BTW, If you check pics of 68-0393 during TAM 80 it has the "football" rear antenna. Dang! I wish I'd known that this was a possibility earlier and I could have easily changed it. Too late now, since I really spent a lot of time getting the "usual" fin cap attached with lots of CA glue since there was lots of gaps. Oh well, a contest judge likely would have docked me a point for an "incorrect" fin cap anyway. ;)

I have photos of 68-0393 from 1980, 1982, 1983, and 1985 and in all of them she has the APS-107 pod on the rear of the fin cap. So I think it's better that your model has it.

From the web, 1980:

Scan of a slide in my collection, photographer unknown, Nellis AFB February 1982:

My photo, taken at Zaragoza AB, Spain on July 19, 1983 (with a rudder change and new unpainted bellows probe):

My photo, taken at Ramstein on Sept. 18, 1985 (note the rudder is kicked to the right while the nose wheel is turned left; as I said in another thread there was no mechanical linkage between the nose gear and rudder):

Edited November 12, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[blunce]

My photo, taken at Ramstein on Sept. 18, 1985 (note the rudder is kicked to the right while the nose wheel is turned left; as I said in another thread there was no mechanical linkage between the nose gear and rudder):

That'd be fun to stand around the table where your model was positioned like that, and listen to everyone point out the "mistake" that modeler made!