Scott R Wilson Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 That'd be fun to stand around the table where your model was positioned like that, and listen to everyone point out the "mistake" that modeler made! Yeah, and keep a copy of this photo handy to whip out and prove the "experts" wrong! Scott W. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) Remember this guy? (Hint: Don't argue with him about F-4's or you'll lose!) Yes that's Scott. I bet his belly isn't so hard these days! :P To replicate the small antenna and base plate that goes with it, I made a circular plate out of thick foil and the antenna out of some small steel rod. To shape the top of the antenna to create a bit of a knob on top like the real deal (see page 118 of Jake's book), I used a Dremel tool as sort of a lathe to grind off a thinner collar near the top. Anyway, I think it looks OK and it's certainly strong since it's made of hard steel drilled into the fuselage, then glued..... Yep, I'm a little older, grayer and softer in the middle... Here's a shot I like of myself from back in the day that might also be useful for detail painting on an F-4E model; too bad the film was grainy, past its expiration date 400 asa print film. I'd run out of Kodachrome slide film and the tiny Base Exchange at Decimommannu only had the old 400 asa film in stock: That photo and the other one of me sitting by Door 19 were taken by my friend Pete Peterson, a WCS tech. Here's a shot I took of Pete that day: Chuck, I love how your SST-181X beacon antenna came out. Like I've said before, you're an absolute genius at improvising details like this. I'm always amazed... Edited November 12, 2011 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) I have photos of 68-0393 from 1980, 1982, 1983, and 1985 and in all of them she has the APS-107 pod on the rear of the fin cap. So I think it's better that your model has it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sadly I think (know) you're right. I have at least 1 pic of this jet without it, but it's rare, so I have no choice but to change it. I have 2 options: Rip off the existing one or make a whole new vertical stabilizer from another kit. The first option is likely not possible without making a huge mess, because I really welded the cap in with lots of CA glue to hide some big gaps. The second option isn't so bad and might turn out even better than the first one now that I know how to modify it to fit the fuselage. Further, I found an old Eduard set with a much longer slime light that is more to scale, so this current problem may turn out to be a happy correction on 2 fronts. I'll just make sure my next F-4E bird has the standard tail and there will be no harm done to the new kit. Question: Is this APS-107 pod alive and active on this jet, or just sitting there and not hooked up? I assume that it might be just part of an old fin cap that has no practical use, since the original fin cap didn't have it. Great pics BTW. They tell me to snug down the base of the tail even further. Edited November 12, 2011 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) Yeah, yeah, yeah, sadly I think (know) you're right. I have at least 1 pic of this jet without it, but it's rare, so I have no choice but to change it. I have 2 options: Rip off the existing one or make a whole new vertical stabilizer from another kit. The first option is likely not possible without making a huge mess, because I really welded the cap in with lots of CA glue to hide some big gaps. The second option isn't so bad and might turn out even better than the first one now that I know how to modify it to fit the fuselage. Further, I found an old Eduard set with a much longer slime light that is more to scale, so this current problem may turn out to be a happy correction on 2 fronts. I'll just make sure my next F-4E bird has the standard tail and there will be no harm done to the new kit. Question: Is this APS-107 pod alive and active on this jet, or just sitting there and not hooked up? I assume that it might be just part of an old fin cap that has no practical use, since the original fin cap didn't have it. Great pics BTW. They tell me to snug down the base of the tail even further. Sorry, I misunderstood; I thought you'd used the fin cap that had the pod. Sorry to bring you bad news... The APS-107 RHAW system was originally used in the F-4D; it was very high maintenance, not that effective, and regarded as a POS by the ECM troops from what I've heard. A version of it was originally put in early F-4Es, but was soon changed out to a different RHAW system (I forget the nomenclature just now) that didn't use the pod on the fincap nor the antennas built into the leading edge of the wing just above the inboard pylons, but instead used the little half-ping-pong-ball antennas on the drag chute door and the same type antennas on the fronts of the wingtips next to the nav lights on slatted birds, as well as sharing the lower TACAN antenna on the front nose gear door. So by 1980 the pods on the fin caps on those F-4Es that still had it as well as the dielectric panels on the wing leading edge above the inboard pylons were empty; no antennas or wiring were inside them. There were still a lot of fincaps with the pod in supply stocks, so frequently replacements still had the pod. I never saw the podded fincap on an ARN-101 F-4E so I have to guess there was some difference between Arnie and non-Arnie fin caps. The dielectric panels on the wing leading edges were sometimes painted over with camouflage, but most often were left covered in the original black neoprene rubber, even though there were no longer any antennas inside that required the surface to be left unpainted. You can see in my photos that they were still black neoprene on 393 in both SEA and Euro-1 paint schemes. There was no seam line at the base of the tail; that panel you see running along the bottom of the tail was L-shaped, the vertical part on the fin and horizontal part on the fuselage. Unlike so many of Tamiya's panels that stick out proud of the surrounding surface, this one really did, so don't sand that one off! Look again at my photo of the stabilator; you can see the lower part of the L-shaped panel on the fuselage and the upper part on the fin, with no gap whatsoever at the fin base. You can also make out that it stands proud of the fin's and fuselage's surface: By the way, did you notice the soot stains on the ground under the tail, and the double nose wheel tracks through the soot? There's a detail for your diorama! Edited November 12, 2011 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 What's with the dark border between the two colors in this pix? Is it just due to the lighting? if accurate, that would make for a unique Euro 1 paint scheme. Great pics and F-4 trivia! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) What's with the dark border between the two colors in this pix? Is it just due to the lighting? if accurate, that would make for a unique Euro 1 paint scheme. Great pics and F-4 trivia! John It wasn't painted with darker borders between the colors; that is just an illusion from the way the lighting hits the edges of the soft demarcation between the colors. I think the edges ended up being flatter than the center parts of the paint color since paint at the edges wasn't put down thick enough to flow out smoothly, and with the light shining off the plane the way it is in that photo the flatter areas look darker. The paint wasn't perfectly flat, and even was semi-gloss depending on the color. Here's a shot I took of 69-0249 shortly after she'd been painted Euro-1. I took this photo specifically to show the different sheens of the colors. Notice how the edges of the flatter color (34079 dark green) are even flatter than the rest of that color, and look darker as a result? Over time the flatter paints would wear to roughly the same sheen as that slightly glossier sheen on the 36081 area in this photo and the whole paintjob would look more uniform, so no need to knock yourself out trying to duplicate this effect. But neither should your models be completely flat, as you can see here. Also note this airplane's stabilator doesn't have the arrowhead or wedge-shaped reinforcements on top so often seen on USAF F-4s. I've mentioned before you really don't need to be too particular about whether your model has or doesn't have them, as stab changes were fairly common and there were at least a few stabilators in the supply chain (as this photo proves) that didn't have the wedges at all, or had them on the bottom only. Most did have them on top though, fwiw. Here's a couple more shots I took at Decimommannu within a few minutes of that last photo of 69-0249. By the way, it's pronounced "DET chee moh MAHN oh": Note in this photo the edges between the 34079 and 36081 that looked darker in the silhouette photo look lighter here: And one I took back at Ramstein (properly pronounced RAHM shtine) with paint touchups in front of and behind the intake: Edited November 13, 2011 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 These pics are terrific and result in yet another question. I have always noticed that there is a color demarcation of the radome from gloss black at the rear to what looks like flat black at the tip. Is this really flat black or some other dark gray or steel color? BTW, these pics rock! You should publish a book with Jake on specific F-4's in Germany. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geedubelyer Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Put plain and simply, this whole thread ROCKS! Keep it comin' boys Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) These pics are terrific and result in yet another question. I have always noticed that there is a color demarcation of the radome from gloss black at the rear to what looks like flat black at the tip. Is this really flat black or some other dark gray or steel color? BTW, these pics rock! You should publish a book with Jake on specific F-4's in Germany. My wife tried to self-publish a book and we lost thousands on the project. Kudos to Jake for making a success of it, but I'm a bit leery of trying it myself. Besides, it seems I'm giving away all my "merchandise" for free on these threads; who'd want to spend money on a book? But thanks for the compliments. The front of the radome usually had an "anti-erosion boot" made of rubber glued on; the rest of the radome was sprayed with a neoprene rubber paint. That's why there are the different blacks visible. The boot stood slightly proud of the rest of the radome, but probably not enough to make out in 1/32 scale, much less the smaller scales. The rear edge of the boot often had a discernable edge of glue, again probably much too small in 1/32 to be of concern (though Chuck, if you want to try it!) You can see the boot and glue edge, which is much larger than usual, in this photo I took of RF-4C 69-0368: Edited November 13, 2011 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
huntermountain Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Put plain and simply, this whole thread ROCKS! Keep it comin' boys Indeed a thread to bookmark. Between the incredible build Chuck is presenting, and the more then gold pictures from Scott this thread could be pinned as a resource for builders with the F-4E in their stash. It has been a pleasure to follow this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Scott (or anyone else knowledgeable) do you know why the paint demarcations have that outlining effect in this image? I've noticed it before on a few airframes and not just the Euro One scheme, and seeing it here seems an opportune moment to inquire. Where the two greens meet for instance produces a darker tone than either colour, from which I'd infer it's not overspray. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) Scott (or anyone else knowledgeable) do you know why the paint demarcations have that outlining effect in this image? I've noticed it before on a few airframes and not just the Euro One scheme, and seeing it here seems an opportune moment to inquire. Where the two greens meet for instance produces a darker tone than either colour, from which I'd infer it's not overspray. See post # 456 on this thread. Edited November 13, 2011 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 See post # 456 on this thread. As a man greater than I once said, 'Doh!' I guess I must have been speed-reading the last half dozen pages and post 456 didn't register. Thanks Scott. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 (edited) There was no seam line at the base of the tail; that panel you see running along the bottom of the tail was L-shaped, the vertical part on the fin and horizontal part on the fuselage. Unlike so many of Tamiya's panels that stick out proud of the surrounding surface, this one really did, so don't sand that one off! Look again at my photo of the stabilator; you can see the lower part of the L-shaped panel on the fuselage and the upper part on the fin, with no gap whatsoever at the fin base. You can also make out that it stands proud of the fin's and fuselage's surface. I was away this past weekend when you posted this and I'm glad I reviewed it one more time. It would appear that not only do I have to eliminate any gap at the base of the vertical stab., but I'm going to have to add a thin strip to the base to help re-create that L-shaped attachment at the base. I see a little notch in it as well that sticks out along one of the panel lines, so that should be fun to do! I just hope I can pull this all off without having to glue and putty the fin on. I think my chances are 50/50 that I can avoid it. You might note that I've changed my sig pic to the exact bird I'm trying to replicate. Nothing like a strong visual for constant inspiration! Edited November 14, 2011 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) A few days ago, my conscience (Scott) pointed out that my bird had an old style fin cap on the vertical stabilizer, which I believe if I've read his descriptions correctly, has an "APS-107 RHAW" or "Football" antenna on the rear. I had just followed the instructions for an F-4E which is like the pic below, but apparently some of them had replacement fin caps using older parts. Another thing Scott pointed out in photographs he took of the base of the stabilizer, is that there is no panel line or gap at the base as I had so proudly created earlier. Dang! Oh well, better to find out now rather than later. Thanks again Scott! To review, here again is the pic of Scott's buddy standing next to the tail fin. Note the base of it has an "L" shaped bracket that is fairly prominent.... Another of Scott's pics from the top..... Here's a fast forward of the old and new stabilizers I just made side by side. Besides the much different fin cap which was made for an F-4D, I decided that if I was going back to the drawing board, I may as well improve what I had already created. The most obvious thing in this pic is the new, larger and more accurate formation light. The generic Eduard 32531 lights I was using are too short for the tail, so I found some better ones in the Eduard F-4C/D Detail Set (32032) I found in my stash..... I made a bunch of other changes as follows. First off, when reviewing pics of that red beacon light as shown above with the metal colored trim (sometimes painted), I couldn't find one pic with the rather prominent trim piece on the kit parts that surround it as shown below, so I cut it off and rescribed the trim part around the light.... I also found that the old stabilizer wobbled when placed into position, because there's a fairly big gap on either side of the large fuselage trim piece that holds it in place. To fix this wobble, I glued some 0.02" styrene card on either side of the fin pieces as shown below, which turned out to be the perfect width... Next, I got rid of the rather crude "stabilator bellows ram air inlet", by cutting the plastic part off and then very carefully drilling a hole into the base of the probe itself. This takes VERY steady hands using larger and larger tiny drills. Note how thin and weak the walls of the new hole are..... I then inserted some 1.0 mm /0.72 mm hollow brass tube after trimming the front edges like the real deal, making it just as long as the kit part and then gluing it in with white glue. I used white glue because you need to move the probe smoothly within the hole until you get the right length, then wipe off the excess with a Q-tip and water. If you used plastic glue it won't stick and with CA glue it would bond immediately in such a confined space. Once everything is set, the base of the probe is now quite strong.... Another angle. Yes Scott, that red light is too bright, so I'll tone it down during final assembly when I glue it in.... Now that gap at the base of the fin. Here's how it looks after doing the interior trimming of the fin as described earlier. With the internal styrene card added, this is now rock solid with no wiggle room. Normally I'd just use some putty to eliminate the small gap, but I really, really want to add the fin later to make painting and especially decaling a lot easier with the fin laid down horizontally rather than vertically. After thinking about how to accomplish this, I decided to go with some 0.01" X 0.03" styrene as a trim piece at the base. This eliminates the gap while provided the horizontal part of the "L" bracket at the base. To glue this new part on, I first fit it tightly against the base of the fin and held it in place with masking tape..... Edited November 18, 2011 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) I then removed the stabilizer and then glued the trim piece using Tamiya extra thin glue from the inside, using capillary action to suck it under the white plastic. Because this surface is already rough for the walkway, a little bit of stray glue doesn't show up at all..... After doing this on both sides then letting it dry over night, I lightly sanded it down to take off the outside sharp edge and Voila! No gap and now a new base of the bracket- and I can still remove the fin completely..... A close-up of the front to show how the trim is cut at an angle like the real deal and some added rivets. That ugly looking seam gap at the front of the fin really doesn't exist. CA glue has filled in this gap but it remains clear, revealing the black paint I added earlier to the inside to create a dark front vent opening.... The rear. The small gap at the base of the vent tube will be filled in during final assembly. You can see I had to tear off my careful masking tape job here to recreate another fin with a tight fit..... I did lots of other things to the stabilizer, but this pic sort of says it all..... Thanks for your continued support of this build. Edited November 18, 2011 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zaxos345 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Great job as always Chuck, truly amazing stuff!!!! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mareku Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 With John here Gorgeos model Quote Link to post Share on other sites
galfa Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Would you please let me know how do you take those great photos ? Any information will be very welcome: kind of camera, settings, lights, tripod... Yours is one of the best build I ever seen. Let me thank you for sharing such masterpiece with me and the other people visiting this forum. Lucio Martino Roma, Italy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Thanks guys. I'm guessing that a lot of you just want me to "get on with it", but all this tiny detail stuff is really fun and for me, the most rewarding part of modeling. My current ETA of a final version is still a few months away, so It'll be over a year from start to finish for sure. As you guys know, life gets in the way of our hobby once in awhile and I'm trying to balance what's really important with gluing plastic parts together. Would you please let me know how do you take those great photos ? Any information will be very welcome: kind of camera, settings, lights, tripod... Yours is one of the best build I ever seen. Let me thank you for sharing such masterpiece with me and the other people visiting this forum. Lucio Martino Roma, Italy Thanks. My photographic skills aren't "pro" by any stretch, but I have learned a few things along the way that have helped me take better and better pictures over the past few years. In random order, I recommend: 1) Get a decent camera with a macro or close-up lens. I'm currently using a N-I-K-O-N D7000 (this anti-spam software is stupid!) as an upgrade to my older D40X, with usually a 60 mm N-I-K-O-N macro lens for most of the close-ups. You don't have to have something this elaborate, but the lens is everything. 2) Use the highest resolution your camera will take. This is especially important if you want to crop your pics later. The camera above is 16 Mp, so I can zoom in on almost anything and still have clear shots. 3) Use a tripod and timer shutter, using the smallest (highest f stop) aperture when you want good depth of field. This is very important on close-up shots, where depth of field can be less than an inch with wider (lower number) apertures. The shutter speed will be really slow at about 2 seconds or more, hence the need for a tripod. Since you're using a tripod anyway, you may as well use the lowest ISO of 100 to get max resolution. 4) Use some dark wash over panel lines and rivet details before taking pics. Besides taking better pics, the wash often reveals mistakes in gluing and sanding long before you hit the model with the first coat of paint. 5) Photographic software is a must. Besides getting the lighting and contrast adjusted to reveal what you want, you can crop and sharpen your pics before posting them. 6) Good lighting is also a must. I have a fairly bright overhead lamp which I usually adjust at an angle so that it creates shadows- and details not visible with normal overhead lighting. 7) White balance. Normally I don't worry about white balance too much when the model is bare plastic, but when the model gets painted and I want to reveal the true colors, you need to compensate for the lighting you are using. Incandescent or halogen lighting gives off a warm or orange like hue, whereas florescent lighting often looks greenish. Most good cameras will let you take a pic of a white card under the lighting you're using (I use white styrene since I'm using it anyway) and then use it as a base line for what "white" should look like, then it adjusts the color range accordingly. This is usually called "Pre-set" or some other way of creating your own white balance. "Auto" white balance is OK some of the time, but when you want to reveal the true colors of your paint, you need to make some adjustments. You can also use the photographic software to shift the hue later, but it's always better to take a pic with the correct white balance to begin with. I also have some "true white" bulbs and lighting I use when I take pics at the end of the final build- again to capture the true colors of the paint. 8) Adjust background so that you don't have too many distractions. In this WIP thread, I like to show some of my "stuff" in the background because it's more realistic to show all the crap we modelers are usually dealing with. When the model is near completion, however, you will likely want to minimize some of that with cloth or pieces of cardboard to block all the junk behind the model. One cool thing about taking close-ups is that it often reveals all sorts of boo-boos you don't normally see with the naked eye. Any model can look pretty good from 18 inches away, but when you look at it from 2 inches, that's what really separates the so-so models from the great ones. Hope this helps! Edited November 18, 2011 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 I'd say your photography skills are on a par with your modeling skills. Outstanding work, great innovation and attention to detail. You still haven't received the package I sent to you? Danged slow mail service! By the way the anti-collision light has two bulbs in it, one just above the other. You can make them out in my closeup shot of the light and bellows probe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 I'd say your photography skills are on a par with your modeling skills. Outstanding work, great innovation and attention to detail. You still haven't received the package I sent to you? Danged slow mail service! By the way the anti-collision light has two bulbs in it, one just above the other. You can make them out in my closeup shot of the light and bellows probe. No, not yet, but then again, I do live in Canada with the slowest mail service on the planet. Thanks for the light info. I think I have just the ticket to recreate those light bulbs! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mark31 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Very nice work. I will follow this one. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EagleAviation Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Very delicate detailing! Keep up the good work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) Thank you Gents! Now a small update, which is nothing earth shattering by any means, but something I learned from "Ianlanc" during my Lancaster build to create a couple of those light bulbs that Scott referred to earlier in the anti-collision, or beacon light on the front of the vertical stabilizer. To create these bulbs or inner lights, drill small holes behind the lens and fill them with the appropriate colored paint. Since this light is solid red already, I used silver. It turned out pretty good, but it also shows another reason I photograph these WIP threads: Close-ups reveal flaws. Although the light looks OK, you'll notice that it doesn't fit in the receptacle very well and sits a bit too high. If you're building this kit, you'll also notice that the lens is not symmetrical like it should be, so you need to smooth one side off because it extends outwards of the opening too much...... To fix both problems, I gently sanded it down with 1500 sandpaper..... Followed by the Tamiya polishing compounds I referred to earlier, and voila, a much better looking fit. That silver reflection is from a pic I'll show below. I also made the red a bit darker, but you can't see the difference much in the harsh overhead light I'm using...... I also put some subtle silver touches around the base of the clear plastic part, to give it that "light box" look. One big caution about drilling these tiny holes: Take your time and don't force the drill bit too much, or you'll wind up with a crack in the fragile hard plastic. If you check out my first light vs. the second one after sanding, you'll notice that they are different, because I messed up the first one by getting a little too aggressive with the bit. Luckily I had a spare... Other last minute additions before painting are gluing some of the Eduard brass bits in the Sparrow missile recesses and that pull out ladder facing, which you can see just left of the formation light.... Another pic of the side reveals another boo-boo. I did a crappy job of painting that hydraulic line on the front gun. Not only does some of the copper wire show, but I obviously missed a bit and got silver paint on the black area. Some of those re-scribed panel lines also need some reworking.... These errors are now fixed- and that's why I post all these pics! Next up, a primer coat after a lot of masking. Thanks for your continued interest in this build. Edited November 21, 2011 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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