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chuck540z3

1/32 Tamiya F-4E post-Vietnam- Kicked up a notch.

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this is what i did to combat the size problem of the aires ehausts:

i used the revell nozzles and reamed them out:

001.jpg

then the detail on the outside of the aires part was sanded down, close to see-through (right)

002.jpg

then pressed together very carefully

003.jpg

compared to a cam nozzle

004.jpg

hope this helps

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a fella i have been chatting to was saying that the aussie variant didnt have the "gatling" type cannon but was instead twin barrells?

No, they were standard F-4Es.

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Thanks for all the info and build tips guys. I really appreciate them and, like I said in my opening comments, I'll help you if you help me. So far I owe everyone!

However, maybe we should do a joint build some time next year, I'm thinking an easy kit so that our tempos will be roughly matched: Tamiya F-16!? Here's the Viper I would build Blue Aggressor

Marcel

Funny you mention the F-16 Aggressor, because I came very close to building that instead. Great minds think alike? :whistle:

I'm kind of fond of the brown/beige and brown/green versions of that aircraft, so maybe I could do the brown one while you do the blue. I have at least 100 walk-around pics of these birds at Nellis over the last 6 years like the ones below, so I think I could add a lot of information on many of the subtle details...

PB101140.jpg

PB101146.jpg

For the time being, though, I think I've got my hands very full with this Phantom!

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WOW, hardly got your CF-188 and your already starting on a new one, wow, cant wait to see more!

Jeremy

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Now for some real progress, albeit small.

One key item that must be attended to with this kit is to sand down those raised panels, which have always been considered "BDR" (Battle Damage Repair) panels that Tamiya got wrong. Well, almost.

In another 1/32 Tamiya F-4J build, I pointed this out to Santtu in his WIP thread here:

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=224159

If you follow along, it turned out to be a real debate (apologies to Santtu!), but thankfully Scott Wilson chimed in with first hand knowledge of what exactly those panels are. It turns out that for the most part, they are access panels that at times may have caulking or whatnot making them stick out from the fuselage more than the other panels. Even so, everyone agrees that Tamiya overdid it, so they must all be sanded down a bit.

Looking through the photographs that Scott supplied in the thread above, Jake's book and a few pics of my own, I have come up with the following conclusions. Here's a pic of the kit intakes along side the D-Mold intakes and the fuselage...

Panels1.jpg

All those raised panels should be re-scribed and sanded down almost if not totally flush with the fuselage. Even the DMold intake needs a little sanding and it has a small panel missing at the front that I'll need to add. Although Scott has better pics of the intake than I do, I do have this one I took at Nellis a few years ago that you may find a little more interesting. :thumbsup: .... Note the hot..... ahhhhh..... small panel at the front of the intake....

Panels4.jpg

Thoroughly reviewing raised panels and pics of the real deal, I did find one panel, however, that I think should be removed at the rear of the port side and re-scribed along the red line.....

Panels2.jpg

I don't have a good pic of the port side, but Jake does in his book on Page 117 and 128, to name a few. I have a pic of the starboard side which is a mirror image to show what I mean. It also shows a patch on this aircraft that must be for a repair or an alteration of some kind, so these patches do exist.....

Panels3-1.jpg

For an extreme example of patches on an F-4, look at this sad F-4C at the link below....

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/howard...15_17_of_43.jpg

Now for intake surgery. The kit ones suck, and not in a good way, so you'll often see this kit with covers over the intakes. Wimps! On my last build I used Seamless Suckers which were a real PITA to install, so this time I went with the DMold version, which fit better and are easier to install. They're also white, so you don't need to paint the white portion of the intake. To get the intakes in, you need to do a bunch of cutting to the fuselage. I use a scriber to accomplish this, by starting with shallow, then progressively deeper scribing cuts to the edge that must be cut, then clean-up the cuts with a sharp utility knife....

Intake1.jpg

Here's a pic from the bottom with the starboard side removed. You need to remove 2 layers of plastic and get everything flush. This takes a lot of fiddling with the resin intakes with trimming and sanding, but you need everything to align up properly before gluing it in with CA glue, especially the front where those small ramp supports are.

Intake2.jpg

Intake3.jpg

A view from the top. I'm not going to glue anything until I paint on the inside of the ramp and the intake interior first, which should make painting much easier and clean......

Intake4.jpg

That's it for now boys. Thanks for your interest.

Edited by chuck540z3

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I have a pic of the starboard side which is a mirror image to show what I mean. It also shows a patch on this aircraft that must be for a repair or an alteration of some kind, so these patches do exist.....

Be careful using that jet as a reference for an F-4E, Chuck. That jet is a QF-4E, and the raised patch you point out is a QF-4-specific mod.

Jake

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Be careful using that jet as a reference for an F-4E, Chuck. That jet is a QF-4E, and the raised patch you point out is a QF-4-specific mod.

Jake

Duly noted Jake, but I did mention the panel was likely for repair or an alteration. :whistle:

I'm using the pics in your book the most, which should keep me out of trouble most of the time. :woot.gif:

Edited by chuck540z3

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You're right, scab patches do indeed exist on the real jet. However they are placed where there is damage, not corresponding with removeable acccess panels as found on the Tamiya model. It wouldn't make any sense to put a scab over a whole panel and make the whole panel thicker; they'd just replace the panel if it was that badly damaged.

Couple of things in case you didn't already know: the blade antenna just behind the hinge for Door 19 (panel behind the rear cockpit) should be removed for the F-4E; I believe its removal is called out in the instructions so you probably just haven't got to it yet. The other thing is the peg-like antenna just in front of the Door 19 hinge was for the SST-181X rendezvous beacon, the Tamiya model has it in the position found on the F-4D. For the F-4E it was repositioned on the right side of Door 19, I don't know why. Here's a photo of me (a long time ago, around 1984) sitting on an F-4E with Door 19 open. You can see the SST-181X antenna to the right of the IFF antenna:

ScottWilsonon68-0517summer1985.jpg

Scott Wilson

Edited by Scott R Wilson

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Couple of things in case you didn't already know: the blade antenna just behind the hinge for Door 19 (panel behind the rear cockpit) should be removed for the F-4E; I believe its removal is called out in the instructions so you probably just haven't got to it yet. The other thing is the peg-like antenna just in front of the Door 19 hinge was for the SST-181X rendezvous beacon, the Tamiya model has it in the position found on the F-4D. For the F-4E it was repositioned on the right side of Door 19, I don't know why. Here's a photo of me (a long time ago, around 1984) sitting on an F-4E with Door 19 open. You can see the SST-181X antenna to the right of the IFF antenna:

Scott Wilson

Now THAT is what I'm looking for when it comes to feedback! I wasn't sure what the heck that little thing was, because on my last build of the F-4J, the instructions called for its removal, so I just assumed it was an injector pin of excess plastic. I have instructions for the F-4C/D, F-4-J, F-4E and this F-4EJ kit. The instructions call for its removal for the F-4C (presumably the "D" keeps it there), the F-4E, the F-4J, but there is nothing mentioned for the F-4EJ, so maybe it stays for this version. With your pic I can easily move it or add another one to the correct location. Thanks Scott!

On the modeling front, I didn't get much done today, but I did start eroding down those raised panels and tweaking the intakes. The more I see pics like the one above, the more motivation I have to get this bird looking good. :thumbsup:

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alos note, if you are doing a Viet Nam F-4E the strengthening panels on the horizontal tail and wing fold areas wouldn't be there. and...the vent above the exhaust cones needs to be replaced. see http://partsrparts.homestead.com/F4parts.html

Bruce

Thanks Bruce, but the Tamiya vents actually look pretty good OOB- and they look nothing like your link. Check out these before/after pics of the vent next to the panels I sanded down and re-scribed....

Before.....

Panels2.jpg

After, with a little oil wash to bring out the new panel line and rivet detail. That vent looks fine and I may even cut out the slats for even better detail and contrast...

Panels7.jpg

Other panels were also sanded down, re-scribed and re-rivited. Here's the port side showing the "RAT" (Ram Air Turbine) door surrounded with a bunch of raised panels. There's masking tape on the top to protect those tiny fragile aerials, but I found out later that forward one has to go anyway....

Panels5.jpg

After carefully masking off those door hinges and grinding down the other panels, I discovered from Jake's book that F-4E's don't have this 2 door feature with a red stripe in the middle, but a single panel instead (Page 115). Oh well, better now that after final painting like my last build! ;) The middle panel line is filled with CA glue which is clear, so you can't tell it's already filled. My luck filling panel lines with putty is poor, so CA glue sanded within an hour works really well. Panel A3 distinguishes the F-4E from other F-4's because it has the fuel door here, rather than on the front starboard side like the F-4J kit. Now I know why Tamiya left these panels open when using the same mold for each kit....

Panels6.jpg

Now I need a little help from you guys. The bird I'm building is 69-7551 from the Vietnam era. How far does the exterior paint go inside the intakes? Before you answer, consider the following:

All Navy F-4J's have the paint go inside about 8-10". The first thing you see when looking into the front of a Navy Phantom intake is white paint. On the camo-painted F-4's however, I've found that everything looks quite dark inside and I have evidence that on later F-4E's and F-4G's the paint goes deep inside to the back edge of the inside ramp. This is about 3 to 4 feet. Is this correct for a Vietnam F-4E?

The other issue that I want to deal with right away is to paint inside the intake splitters before assembly, because painting inside this tight area is almost impossible later. Also note that 69-7551 has FS 36622 Tan on the starboard intake and FS 34079 Dark Green on the port intake, so I assume those are the colors that are painted within the intake. To achieve a clean paint job inside the intakes and under the splitters, here's what I did.....

Intake5.jpg

Intake6.jpg

Assembled. That white resin doesn't need painting :blink: .....

Intake8.jpg

Other details added or subtracted.....

Intake8-2.jpg

And of course the fuselage itself on the starboard side is painted at the same time. Note those aerials should be removed, although the most forward one is just going to be moved to the starboard side as per Scott's photo and advice above...

Intake9.jpg

Intake10.jpg

So if you guys know anything about correct intake painting on F-4E's, please let me know. I haven't glued anything in place yet and I can easily remove paint if required.

Thanks!

Edited by chuck540z3

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Great googily moogily Chuck..........I'm impressed and all you've done is mostly prep stuff....can't wait to see this puppy at the mid stages, and then in the display case :salute: .

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Chuck,

perfect work on sanding down those panels. BTW, how do you scribe your rivets, you managed to place them perfectly equidistant, nice.

This build is really making me want to do my F-4E rather than the F-4B, since I have the perfect playbook with your build.

Cheers,

Marcel

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Not to be pedantic, but the correct terminology is "intake ramps" or more often "vari-ramps", not splitter plates. FWIW, in six years of working on F-4Cs and Es the only time I heard anyone use the term "splitter" was when it was a civilian, usually a modeller.

The front ramp was the fixed ramp, followed by the first variable ramp, which was the one with all the perforations just outside the intake duct, then the second variable ramp, which was just inside the intake duct. The second variable ramp was quite smooth, there was no evidence of holes, rivets or fasteners like I see on your Tamiya parts.

When I worked on Phantoms, all of them had the exterior color extending exactly three feet into the duct (I measured it once). However, I've found photos from back in the Vietnam days that show some F-4Es with the exterior camo color extending only a few inches into the white duct, and others that look like the green or tan go back the full three feet. I have a good photo of 69-7551 taken at Osan in 1982 that shows the exterior color going into the duct only a few inches. You can't necessarily rely on that though, as by 1982 the jet would have been repainted once or twice from the Vietnam days. Still, my gut feeling is that 69-7551 in the Vietnam days probably only had the exterior paint a few inches into the duct as well. Unless you can find a photo of 7551 taken at the time of your model's markings, I guess there's no way to be sure.

Here's the photos I have:

69-7551 at Osan on April 24, 1982, photo by Don McGarry:

69-7551April241982OsanABDonMcGarry.jpg

Early F-4E with camo extending into the duct (found this photo online somewhere):

A20Flight.jpg

Early F-4E with exterior paint just a few inches inside the duct (also from the web):

x350_wels_F4_8.jpg

Here's a photo of Don Logan taking photos of a couple of his squadron mates just after they completed their 100 missions, note this Korat based F-4E appears to have the camouflage well into the intake:

EOTs-20.jpg

Another crew at Takhli just after completing their 100 mission, also note the camouflage appears to extend well into the duct:

F-4E68-328TakhliRTAFB28Oct722.jpg

F-4E68-328TakhliRTAFB28Oct72.jpg

Here's a website with a bunch of Don Logan's photos you might find useful:

http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/twtd02.htm

Edited by Scott R Wilson

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I added some text your photo, in case I wasn't clear enough in what I wrote. The rear edge of the second variable ramp fit very tightly against the intake duct, there was a very thin panel line which you really couldn't see from outside the jet looking in.

Intake6.jpg

Edited by Scott R Wilson

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Not to be pedantic, but the correct terminology is "intake ramps" or more often "vari-ramps", not splitter plates. FWIW, in six years of working on F-4Cs and Es the only time I heard anyone use the term "splitter" was when it was a civilian, usually a modeler.

"My name is Chuck and I'm a MODELER!" :)

First of all Scott, THANK YOU for the information! It's pretty much what I thought concerning the painting of the intakes. Sorry for calling those vari-ramps "splitters", but I got that term from the famous Laurent/Brown Tamiya F-4 tweak list at the beginning of this thread. They must be "Modelers" too. What a bunch of rookies! :P My usual term for airplane stuff I have no idea about is "thingy", so I'll stick to that from now on.

Based upon the fact that 80-90% of the F-4E pics I've seen of the intakes have them painted 3 feet back, I'm going to stick with what I've done, if for no other reason than it's "typical" and at 1/32 scale, 3 feet = 1.123", which is the length of the second vari-ramp at the bottom. I'm guessing that's why it was always 3 feet or so.

Also thanks for that pic of the tan color being painted within the starboard intake, because all the ones I've seen have just the dark green on the port side and I wasn't sure if the colors could be different on each side to match the camo paint job. Thanks also to Jari (Finn) for the pic of that Iranian F-4E that shows the same tan painting within the intake, although on the port side this time.

Now as for the dipples on the second "vari-ramps", I'm really glad I didn't glue them in before I sought advice. Checking Jake's book on page 113, I don't see any holes in those ramps either. Maybe it was an early F-4 thing? It must have been on at least one F-4 for Tamiya to carefully mold them in there. Does anybody know?

BTW, how do you scribe your rivets, you managed to place them perfectly equidistant, nice.

Cheers,

Marcel

Thanks Buddy! It's not very hard, depending on the situation. If you want to replace the same rivets on something you want to sand, I deepen them first with a needle in a pin vice, sand away, deepen them again, sand, etc., until I've sanded down as far as I want, then re-poke the needle in the rivet marks. For some plastic like a recent 1/48 Tamiya Lancaster I made below, the plastic is very soft and rivet marks are made easily- which is a good thing since I replaced a few thousand rivets! On this F-4 kit, however, I found the plastic to be very hard, so you don't want to go too deep with the needle each time or you'll crack something. BTW, Don't ever use a needle on hard clear canopy plastic. Don't ask me how I know!

For other panels you may have created that need rivets, I have several Hasegawa "Trytool" templates that have templates for straight edges and curves in a variety of rivet patterns. Here's what you can accomplish on a build like the Lancaster. Every rivet you see was re-punched with those templates....

Final18.jpg

Edited by chuck540z3

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WOW, Chuck you never cease to amaze me with your outstanding attention to detail! This is sure to be at the top of my favorite builds from you! Can't wait to see more!

Jeremy

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Now as for the dipples on the second "vari-ramps", I'm really glad I didn't glue them in before I sought advice. Checking Jake's book on page 113, I don't see any holes in those ramps either. Maybe it was an early F-4 thing? It must have been on at least one F-4 for Tamiya to carefully mold them in there. Does anybody know?

The same Tamiya that made the ridiculously raised maintenance panels and undersized engine exhausts? Who knows where they got the rivets on the second variable ramp idea... All I know is the ramps in the F-4Cs and Es I've seen and worked on didn't have anything like that. I highly doubt the F-4EJ and F-4J have them either.

Guess I was indeed a bit pedantic about the vari-ramp vs splitter plate thing. Call them what you like, I'll call them ramps or vari-ramps and we'll both know what we're talking about.

I think Jake Melampy might have mentioned it in his book, my copy is in the basement right now and I'm too lazy to go down and check, but did you know the air refuel door wasn't symetrical from left to right? Here's a photo from the web that shows its shape very clearly. I couldn't tell from your photos if Tamiya got this correct.

recep01.jpg

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The same Tamiya that made the ridiculously raised maintenance panels and undersized engine exhausts? Who knows where they got the rivets on the second variable ramp idea... All I know is the ramps in the F-4Cs and Es I've seen and worked on didn't have anything like that. I highly doubt the F-4EJ and F-4J have them either.

Guess I was indeed a bit pedantic about the vari-ramp vs splitter plate thing. Call them what you like, I'll call them ramps or vari-ramps and we'll both know what we're talking about.

I think Jake Melampy might have mentioned it in his book, my copy is in the basement right now and I'm too lazy to go down and check, but did you know the air refuel door wasn't symetrical from left to right? Here's a photo from the web that shows its shape very clearly. I couldn't tell from your photos if Tamiya got this correct.

recep01.jpg

Where does this part go on the airframe anyway? Would love to see if its on the Revell kit that I have!

Jeremy

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The Picture with "Angel" on the nose is an early F-4E of the 32nd TFS based in the Netherlands. I noticed that on the patches worn by the crew in front of the Phantom.

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