1/32 Tamiya F-4E post-Vietnam- Kicked up a notch.

[JohnS]

Terrific detail work, Chuck. Great idea for the light bulbs.

... but it also shows another reason I photograph these WIP threads: Close-ups reveal flaws. ...

Me too! Nothing like a good close-up photo to humble the most seasoned model builder. I'm always ready with the sandpaper and putty when taking photos, 'cause I know there inevitably will be issues that show up in the photos. My problem is, like you, once I see a flaw (no matter how small) it bugs the living daylights out of me until it's fixed.

[Zactoman]

Stunning stuff as usual.

Thanks for sharing with us!!!

[Finn]

Great work as always Chuck. However knowing your attention to detail there is more to the Sparrow wells. I'm sure Scott has better pics but here's one, of an F-4C, but the E would be similar:

Sparrow well

it shows the Aero 7A launcher that the AIM-7 attached to.

Jari

[Scott R Wilson]

Great work as always Chuck. However knowing your attention to detail there is more to the Sparrow wells. I'm sure Scott has better pics but here's one, of an F-4C, but the E would be similar:

Sparrow well

it shows the Aero 7A launcher that the AIM-7 attached to.

Jari

The curved thingy is one of the ejector feet, there are two in each launcher. The launcher has a couple of explosive cartridges installed to arm them that put the expanding gasses into a piston the feet are on to push the feet down a ways to push the missile away from the jet before a lanyard starts the rocket motor. I didn't remember that the feet hung down a few inches until you posted that, so thanks. Chuck, the retracted boarding steps should be flush, not sitting out like that. Sorry to bring bad news once again... Here's some photos I took of an active duty F-4C from Luke, just before the 58th got rid of them, the F-4E's launchers should be identical, though the lower TACAN antenna just behind the nose wheel well is relocated to the front nose gear door on the E model:

And photos of Pave Spike pods that show the retracted boarding steps:

[blunce]

It's like two great threads, rolled into one. One is Chucks amazing build as ya go-build, the other Scotts awesome intel and photos! Thanks so much for sharing guys!

[Marcel111]

The awesomeness continues

Great work on the tail and very cool reference materia from Scott.

Marcel

[Scott R Wilson]

The launcher has a couple of explosive cartridges installed to arm them that put the expanding gasses into a piston the feet are on to push the feet down a ways to push the missile away from the jet before a lanyard starts the rocket motor.

Wow, what a run-on sentence. Better not let my wife (Master's degree in English) see that one! Someday if I am ever around a fighter version F-4 again, I'll pull one of the the ejectors down and have someone take a photo so you can see just how far down the thing travels to launch the missile. In the meantime, here's a nice shot from the web of the F-4E on display in Munich that shows both ejector feet on the forward right missile well launcher very nicely:

In this photo I took on August 16, 1983 of 68-0440, you can see a launcher sitting on the ground under the left forward missile well. Either they just took out a missile well adapter for an ECM pod and will soon install this launcher, or they just dropped the launcher to install an adapter. The two "spike" looking thingys at either end of the launcher contain the pistons for the ejectors.

Thanks for the compliments, I'm glad you folks are enjoying our efforts.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[11bee]

Thanks for the compliments, I'm glad you folks are enjoying our efforts.

Why is the TISEO lens painted over? Did the remove this system at some point but kept the housing intact? Also, is it me or is the darker shade of green much more on the olive drab side vrs the normal shade? IMHO, that is my favorite phantom color scheme but the huge full color squadron badge kinda defeats the purpose of all the other low-viz markings :)

Great pics BTW, thank you so much for posting them.

Edited November 21, 2011 by 11bee

[Scott R Wilson]

Why is the TISEO lens painted over? Did the remove this system at some point but kept the housing intact? Also, is it me or is the darker shade of green much more on the olive drab side vrs the normal shade? IMHO, that is my favorite phantom color scheme but the huge full color squadron badge kinda defeats the purpose of all the other low-viz markings :)

Great pics BTW, thank you so much for posting them.

I wondered if someone would ask. This was a 1968 model F-4E, no TISEO equipment in the jet. We had two 1968 model jets in the 526TFS that had TISEO leading edge part installed, 68-0508 and 0440. I don't know for certain, but I believe it was because prior to 1983 Ramstein operated TISEO and non-TISEO jets, and when new leading edge parts were needed either they used what was in stick or someone ordered the wrong part number. There was a metal cover over the camera opening. Both airplanes already had the fairing when I arrived on base in April 1983.

Scott W.

[chuck540z3]

Great work as always Chuck. However knowing your attention to detail there is more to the Sparrow wells. I'm sure Scott has better pics but here's one, of an F-4C, but the E would be similar:

Sparrow well

it shows the Aero 7A launcher that the AIM-7 attached to.

Jari

Thanks for stopping by Jari- and the tip. I knew there was other stuff to hang under there, but I hadn't got around to it yet, but thanks to you we now have all sorts of pics from Scott to use. Keep those tips coming!

The curved thingy is one of the ejector feet, there are two in each launcher. The launcher has a couple of explosive cartridges installed to arm them that put the expanding gasses into a piston the feet are on to push the feet down a ways to push the missile away from the jet before a lanyard starts the rocket motor. I didn't remember that the feet hung down a few inches until you posted that, so thanks. Chuck, the retracted boarding steps should be flush, not sitting out like that. Sorry to bring bad news once again... Here's some photos I took of an active duty F-4C from Luke, just before the 58th got rid of them, the F-4E's launchers should be identical, though the lower TACAN antenna just behind the nose wheel well is relocated to the front nose gear door on the E model:

Now this part about the boarding ladder I did not know, but I really should have checked the pics in Jake's book (page 51) before gluing on that Eduard brass piece. It turns out that not only is it supposed to be flush like you pointed out, but there are no rivets on it at all and it is not asymmetrical, so Eduard is 0 for 3. I'm guessing it's asymmetrical because the kit part is also made that way, which is wrong. Looking at several pics of the ladder extended and retracted, the error must have come from the look of the ladder when extended. The central extension slider for the steps is tucked in behind the right step which is the furthest down, but beside the left step, so it shows a larger gap on the left with the ladder extended. When tucked away, the two parts of the step assembly are symmetrical, with the gap between them roughly dead center. The best pic I can find in in Prime Portal below of an Israeli F-4E here:

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/f-4e_details/images/f-4e_details_03_of_72.jpg

Fixing this is fairly simple. I'll remove the Eduard part, seal up the old gap in the middle with CA glue, then rescribe a new boarding ladder- flush this time!

[Finn]

In case you need some more reference material:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31294674/f-Rf-4c-d-e-Crew-Chief-s-Handbook

it deals with various variants of the F-4, including the E.

Jari

[Scott R Wilson]

I wondered if someone would ask. This was a 1968 model F-4E, no TISEO equipment in the jet. We had two 1968 model jets in the 526TFS that had TISEO leading edge part installed, 68-0508 and 0440. I don't know for certain, but I believe it was because prior to 1983 Ramstein operated TISEO and non-TISEO jets, and when new leading edge parts were needed either they used what was in stick or someone ordered the wrong part number. There was a metal cover over the camera opening. Both airplanes already had the fairing when I arrived on base in April 1983.

Scott W.

Here's a shot I took of live AIM-9P-3 missiles on 68-0440 that also shows the TISEO fairing:

I never photographed 68-0508 from the left side, but I do have someone else's photo in my collection. Here she is at Red Flag in February 1982, photographer unknown:

[11bee]

I wondered if someone would ask. This was a 1968 model F-4E, no TISEO equipment in the jet. We had two 1968 model jets in the 526TFS that had TISEO leading edge part installed, 68-0508 and 0440. I don't know for certain, but I believe it was because prior to 1983 Ramstein operated TISEO and non-TISEO jets, and when new leading edge parts were needed either they used what was in stick or someone ordered the wrong part number. There was a metal cover over the camera opening. Both airplanes already had the fairing when I arrived on base in April 1983.

Scott W.

Thanks for the reply Scott. Anything you can add to my other observation about the darker of the two greens being much more of an OD? Maybe it is just an issue w/ the picture but it that color sure looks different than most of the other SEA birds.

Regards,

John

[blunce]

Hey Scott, in the pic of 68-0508, why is there a door in that inner drop tank? Is that not a fuel tank, or was it converted to store luggage?

[Scott R Wilson]

Thanks for the reply Scott. Anything you can add to my other observation about the darker of the two greens being much more of an OD? Maybe it is just an issue w/ the picture but it that color sure looks different than most of the other SEA birds.

Regards,

John

It's probably a good idea not to read so much into colors from a photograph; color reproduction in a photo so much depends on the weather when the photo was taken, the angle of the sun, type of film, processing variations and so forth. Here's another shot I took of 440 about a year after the first one above, and you can see the colors look altogether different:

Hey Scott, in the pic of 68-0508, why is there a door in that inner drop tank? Is that not a fuel tank, or was it converted to store luggage?

I'm not sure if you wanted an answer here. It's obviously a travel pod, F-4s couldn't carry external fuel on the inboards. But that is a different looking pod than what we usually see, can't say I ever saw one like that in person.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[chuck540z3]

In case you need some more reference material:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31294674/f-Rf-4c-d-e-Crew-Chief-s-Handbook

it deals with various variants of the F-4, including the E.

Jari

Thanks a lot Jari. That site is GOLD when I do the pylons and other details underneath!

Now a few updates- although this is a work in progress and I'm looking for tips if I have somehow screwed up the Sparrow launchers.

Starting off with Scott's excellent pic (See Post # 476), I see a bunch of things. I have no idea what does what, but I see the following:

1. The rear launcher is hook shaped, facing inwards and to the rear- and it's raised slightly.
   
2. There is a circular hole beside it towards the front.
   
3. There is another circular hole with some sort of plug to the inside of the front fin hole.
   
4. There is a square hole AND and small square cut out in the fin hole beside it.
   
5. The other square looking features are placards.
   

I tried to find pics of the front launcher, but I couldn't find any until I remembered that our friend Marcel sent me a whole bunch of pics of an old F-4S almost a year ago when I started this build. Sure enough, being an expert modeler who loves details, Marcel came through! Here's a pic of the front launcher pad, in which you can see:

1. There is square pad on a raised pin, much like the hook shaped rear launcher.
   
2. There is another big hole beside it towards the rear.
   
3. In front of this pad is another hook-shaped feature that is flush to the fuselage, but the hook is less pronounced.
   

Here's another of Marcel's pics showing the details near the fin hole, which show the square hole and cut-out a little better. Note the square pin-like feature within it with a notch towards the rear....

Soooooo, being a "Monkey See, Monkey Do" kind of modeler, here's what I did with stuff from the parts bin and a bit of drilling and glueing. The launch pads are glued to 0.035" styrene rod and inserted into holes to give them lift and realism. I have them raised on the far side so you can see the holes they go into....

A close-up of the rear launcher and the parts I stuffed into the holes to get close to the real deal. I still need to do some cleaning up- and you can see that I'm about to mask in the wheel wells after the wet Kleenex within them dries. I'm sort of proud of that square thingy next to the fin hole, because cutting tiny square holes is so hard to do. I also cut out a notch in the fin hole beside it.....

The front pad. Note that although Tamiya has a hole next to the rear, they forgot one up front, so I drilled one out beside the launcher. The front hook-like feature is glued flush, while the square pad is raised....

A view of the rear launcher from the other side with the launcher raised. If you want to go really crazy, that pin should be in a deeper recess.....

And then retracted. I'm going to yank all these bits out of the holes before painting or I'll break them all off....

Of course the rear Sparrow wells get the very same treatment.....

Thanks Guys- and keep firing questions at Scott! I'm learning a TON about the Phantom every day and thanks to Scott and Jari, they are making this WIP thread a lot of fun. I just hope my efforts don't disappoint the experts! :unsure:

Edited November 23, 2011 by chuck540z3

[Zactoman]

It's probably a good idea not to read so much into colors from a photograph; color reproduction in a photo so much depends on the weather when the photo was taken, the angle of the sun, type of film, processing variations and so forth. Here's another shot I took of 440 about a year after the first one above, and you can see the colors look altogether different:

I took the liberty of doing a little color correction in Photoshop, hope you don't mind.

The adjustments were just educated guesses using a variety of cues in the pictures. Each of these was adjusted separately without referring to the others. Given a known, correct color picture to use as a basis, they could probably all be adjusted to look pretty similar.

I hope this helps and doesn't confuse things more...

[chuck540z3]

I almost forgot the best pic of the rear launcher that Marcel took, which has something quite different from all the pics I've seen so far, including those in Jake's book. That circular hole beside the front fin hole has an obvious electrical connection, whereas all the other pics show a circular plug of some kind. Guys? What the heck are we dealing with here?

Switching back to the prior posts on the recessed ladder, Here's how things should look with a flush ladder with no rivets and a line in the very center of it. The panel line at the top really isn't as bad as it looks due to the clear CA glue. I also ripped off that formation light and tweaked it a bit to get it straighter.

Here's the "Before pic".......

And how it looks now....

Edited November 23, 2011 by chuck540z3

[Finn]

Hi Chuck, here is a pic of an AIM-7 Sparrow. In front of the guy's arm are the aft hangers that go into the recess where the aft ejector foot is. Forward (to the right) from there is a silver connector with white wire (with the orange thing), that is the motor fire wire, which sends a signal to the motor to fired when the missile is ejected. I think on the F-4 it's connected somewhere near the aft ejector foot area. Further forward you can see the electrical receptacle, both the missile and launcher have the same type connectors, a shear wafer (a round disk with pins on both sides) plugs into the missile and launcher receptacles connecting the missile with the launcher. Further forward from there is the forward hanger which fits into the notched square thingy as you called it.

Hope this makes sense.

Jari

[Finn]

A little bit more detail, in Marcel's pics you posted, the square pad is the forward ejector foot. The pin sticking out (just above the MAG-24) is the missile away switch. When a missile is loaded, the missile makes contact with it pushing it in which lets the a/c know a missile is loaded. When the missile is ejected, the pin comes out letting the a/c, and crew, know the missile has come off.

Jari

[Scott R Wilson]

Hi Chuck, here is a pic of an AIM-7 Sparrow. In front of the guy's arm are the aft hangers that go into the recess where the aft ejector foot is. Forward (to the right) from there is a silver connector with white wire (with the orange thing), that is the motor fire wire, which sends a signal to the motor to fired when the missile is ejected. I think on the F-4 it's connected somewhere near the aft ejector foot area. Further forward you can see the electrical receptacle, both the missile and launcher have the same type connectors, a shear wafer (a round disk with pins on both sides) plugs into the missile and launcher receptacles connecting the missile with the launcher. Further forward from there is the forward hanger which fits into the notched square thingy as you called it.

Hope this makes sense.

Jari

Thanks so much for this, Jari, you know a lot more than I do about the launchers. Also, the deep holes just to the rear of the forward ejector foot and forward of the rear foot are the cartridge breeches if I recall correctly. When there isn't a missile loaded they want to protect the missile electrical connection from moisture and the corrosion it could cause, so they installed the plug looking thing you see in my F-4C photos and a few of the other photos from Marcel. Another option was a home made device with some circuitry that mimmicked the electronics of an AIM-7 being installed (though the "missile away" switch wasn't depressed) so the WSO could better simulate selecting and launching an AIM-7. The AIM-7 simulator plug looked a lot like the raised weather protection plug you see in these photos but was semi-clear yellowish resin or silicone or some such. It had some kind of electronics tube inside that glowed orange with power on the aircraft. I didn't know about this simulator plug when I first got to Ramstein, but first saw it when I was assigned to do end of runway checks late one evening. When I saw the plug glowing I had no idea what that was about, but thought maybe the pilot had turned on the CW transmitter or something, so it scared me a little. I did someday want to have children after all.

Jari, was the motor fire wire just a lanyard or was there an electrical pulse sent down it to fire the rocket motor? Somehow I always thought it was a lanyard that pulled a switch or something in the missile, but I'm not sure where I got that notion.

By the way, as long as I'm thinking about it, the missile nose radome was some kind of unfinished (slightly rough textured) white ceramic. It became kind of a gull gray color from dirt over time. I've seen lots of models where the AIM-7 noses were painted radome tan or some such; that's incorrect. I unscrewed the radome on one once to see the antenna inside, it was a wierd sort of mushroom shaped thing. Wish I'd taken a photo of it.

Here's the nose section of an AIM-7E-2 that I photographed in a TAB-V at Ramstein:

Edited November 23, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[Marcel111]

Chuck,

Very glad you found those pics useful... and put them to really good use! Your bays look great, best I've seen. I have actualy wondered how I would modell these, you of course beat me to it :D

Cheers,

Marcel

[Finn]

Scott, the motor fire wire sent an electrical impulse to the missile after the missile was ejected, it probably wouldn't be good if the motor fired while the missile was still attached to the launcher. According to the info i have, the breeches were not visible externally so what those deep holes are we'll have to wait for a Phantom loader to speak up.

Jari

[Scott R Wilson]

Scott, the motor fire wire sent an electrical impulse to the missile after the missile was ejected, it probably wouldn't be good if the motor fired while the missile was still attached to the launcher. According to the info i have, the breeches were not visible externally so what those deep holes are we'll have to wait for a Phantom loader to speak up.

Jari

Interesting. I'd sure like to know how the weapons weenies up and downloaded the impulse cartridges. Perhaps there were removeable panels to access the breeches.

More fun factoids: each aircraft's radar CW Klystron tube transmitted at a slightly different frequency, so each missile had to be "hot tuned" to the particular frequency the aircraft it was loaded onto transmitted. The AIM-7 had the main receive antenna in the nose radome that detected the reflected CW from the target, but also a small antenna facing the rear that picked up the transmitted CW from the launch aircraft while it was in flight to the target. There were a series of small antennas near each missile well that transmitted a sample of the CW transmitter RF for the missile tuning. Older AIM-7s had a mechanical tuning drive that occasionally hung up. It was supposedly not uncommon to see a WCS technician beating on the side of the guidance section of an AIM-7 with a wheel chock to free up a stuck tuning drive during a hot tune. If the missile failed hot tune of course it had to be removed and replaced. By the time I was working on F-4s the AIM-7s had been updated with an electronic tuning drive, so I never got to witness this fun, but missiles still occasionally failed to hot tune.

The small antennas that transmitted the CW samples were called "pseudo signal horns". Here's a couple of photos that were marked up by a former WCS knuckle dragger (as they liked to call themselves) showing some of the various pseudos:

The rear antenna on the missile is the white tip at the end of that conduit that goes down the side of the missile in this photo of an intert AIM-7. The pseudo is painted over on this F-4C on display at the Pima County museum, but was left bare on active jets:

And here's one of my photos showing the forward left missile well front pseudo, it's the dielectric panel just above the tip of the missile radome:

Here's a shot I took of the forward missile well rear pseudo. Both forward missile rear antennas used the signal from this one. The front of the aircraft is to the right:

And on the right side of the nose there were two dielectric panels; one that sort of matches the left forward missile well pseudo, and another dielectric panel just in front and above it that I don't know what it was for:

Edited November 23, 2011 by Scott R Wilson

[chuck540z3]

And on the right side of the nose there were two dielectric panels; one that sort of matches the left forward missile well pseudo, and another dielectric panel just in front and above it that I don't know what it was for:

Both of those are scribed on the Tamiya kit. Are they painted grey like the bottom or another color?