Scott R Wilson Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) I just went through the photos I have of Ramstein Phantoms and actually very few show the yaw string. Of course it could have been hanging off the opposite side of the nose that I photographed. You'll notice none are as long as the string on the Spang jet I posted this morning. Here's some of my photos that show it: Same jet, other side: Next one is not my photo but shows how the stripe is painted forward of where the string is attached. All the photos I have indicate the string was tucked into the forward edge of the ADF antenna dielectric cover (panel 167). Chuck, if you want to add a yaw string on your model it should be attached on the panel line going through the yellow strip right next to your panel 167 stencil. Anyway, here's the photo: A DoD shot of a 526 TFS bird, 68-0538, that shows the stripe very well: By the way, I may be the one responsible for that reddish patch on the left wing inboard leading edge. I don't recall which tail number it was, but I was working 2nd shift but had stayed over well into 3rd shift one night to help try to ohm out a wiring issue with the TACAN on one of our F-4Es. I had the MX-some-numbers ARN-118 digital to analog converter out of Door 19 so I could get to its electrical connector and wiring. I left the MX sitting on the backbone behind the open door hinge. Someone drove up in a truck and told me they needed me on another airplane right away to do an inspection and sign off for someone else's work. I climbed down off the jet I was working on and went with with the driver to attend to it. When I got back, there were a couple of very worried people looking at a big hole in the wing about where the patch is on 538 in the above photo. Turns out after I'd left with the driver, the MX slid off the fuselage and landed on the wing leading edge, punching a big hole in it. The sheet metal guys later put a scab patch over the hole. Could be it was 538 I damaged that night. I thought I was in big trouble, but I'd been on duty well over 14 hours (we were actually limited to 12 hours by direction of the Deputy Commander for Maintenance) so they cut me some slack. I just filled out a report saying what happened and nothing further was said about it. One final thing before I forget, Chuck, the rear cap on the RHAW football antenna on the fin cap should be black, and the very front part of the football likewise is black. Here's a nice photo showing 393 without the checkers on the tail so you can see what I mean. Not my photo, by the way. Edited February 15, 2012 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) One final thing before I forget, Chuck, the rear cap on the RHAW football antenna on the fin cap should be black, and the very front part of the football likewise is black. Here's a nice photo showing 393 without the checkers on the tail so you can see what I mean. Not my photo, by the way. Will do Buddy- and I was wondering what color that should be. Is this a gloss or flat black? If it's flat black, I'll paint it when I do the nose cone and wingtip aerials. Also, for the yaw string yellow guide line, I have a few pics (like the link below) where it starts forward of that panel just in front of the windscreen vent, but your pics show it to go all the back to the windscreen. It's too late to change it now, but have you ever seen it that way? Iranian F-4E http://www.airliners.net/photo/Iran---Air/McDonnell-Douglas-F-4E/1568027/L/ Edited February 15, 2012 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Will do Buddy- and I was wondering what color that should be. Is this a gloss or flat black? If it's flat black, I'll paint it when I do the nose cone and wingtip aerials. Also, for the yaw string yellow guide line, I have a few pics where it starts forward of that panel just in front of the windscreen vent, but your pics show it to go all the back to the windscreen. It's too late to change it now, but have you ever seen it that way? The black was the same Neoprene rubber used on the nose radome, so could be flat, gloss or anything in between. Nice, eh? However you paint it is correct! The yellow yaw string stripes varied in their exact placement so far as I remember, so I believe yours is just fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
agelos2005 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Great job, Very nice indeed :jaw-dropping: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Youngtiger1 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Looks like almost close to the end of another awesome project. I really like how the tail has turned out. ;) Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Not long after I arrived at Ramstein, I saw a crew chief spraying dark gloss olive paint from a rattle can on an F-4E. I thought it looked awful, but I figured he didn't know about FS paint numbers and had just grabbed the wrong color. Not long afterwards, I found a GSA supply catalog in our AMU office and went through it, thinking I could be helpful and order the correct paint colors. I was surprised to find that they didn't carry spray bombs in 34102, 34079 or 30219 though lots of other colors were available. Judging from my photos, the crew chiefs used not only the dark olive but whatever colors they could get that were reasonably close matches to the camouflage, which of course didn't match at all. No one ever worried too much about matching colors anyway as you can see from mismatched things like light gray Sparrow launchers used on wraparound painted jets; 370 wing tanks with parts of the tank that had light gray undersides and wraparound 34079 on other parts; 370s with light gray undersides installed on Euro-1 painted jets; Euro-1 dark gray replacement stabs and rudders that didn't match the 30219 tan on the rest of the jet; the wraparound outer wing on 68-0442 while the rest of the jet still had a 36622 light gray belly, and so on. It sure makes interesting modeling possibilities! DoD photo of 68-0517, 526 TFS: The rest are my photos: Edited February 17, 2012 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Here's the photo of 68-0442 again (I posted it awhile back). It's hard to see, but this jet had a wraparound right outer wing, while the rest of the jet was white belly. Note also the mis-matched paint repairs on the nose and by the wing patch on the intake. Chuck could have a ball modeling this airplane! The name chalked on the fin cap is "PORKY". Edited February 17, 2012 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesniF-16 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Wow great photos Scott, Chuck doesn't even need a Daco book with all your photos..... Unbelievable work and craftsmanship Chuck, you should try to build the real F-4E after this one!!!! BTW your aluminum can tricks are great ..... Can't wait to see the finished paint job on this beauty... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Thank you guys for the words of encouragement. We're getting close to the end now! I haven't had much time to model lately, but I did find some time to try a little salt weathering, using the vertical stabilizer as a "guinea pig". The main look I'm trying to achieve for this bird can best be portrayed by this pic and the one posted by Scott two posts above. I see worn panels, faded paint, lots of panel lines and rivets and for this jet a few years after TAM 80- even the rudder has been replaced with one that doesn't match..... As shown many times before, my paint job looks way too clean and unrealistic. That's about to change in a hurry... First job is to highlight those panel lines and rivets with a weathering wash. I like ProModeler wash because I can apply it many times without any worry of it attacking my enamel paint. Although I have a good two coats of Future, I've found that solvent based washes can be troublesome because you never know where the Future coat is too thin. I've also heard of people having trouble with getting this wash to come off completely when required. The easy fix is too use Windex, which I use exclusively over plain water...... Now most of the rivet detail and all of the panel lines are a lot more noticeable.... Next I sprayed a thin band of Alclad Dark Aluminum to the front leading edge of the stabilizer. The leading edges of this, the wings, intakes, etc. take a beating and are more "sandblasted" rather than having huge chunks of paint missing- especially at 1/32 scale. This is a bit too much on purpose.... Next, the old salt treatment. Rather than just spray on warm water and add a few crystals, I like to let the salt dissolve a bit to create larger and more importantly, random areas of masking. I sprayed a light mist of each camo color over top, but a bit darker for each color to contrast with the lightened version already there..... When you wash the salt off after an hour or two, you get something that looks like this. Not too realistic yet, but a bit closer. Note the paint on the yellow "D", which needs to be removed with a Q-tip and solvent, because this letter was new paint specifically for the TAM 80 meet..... Once decal areas have been cleaned up a bit and re-painted areas are toned down with a bit more paint, I dull-coated everything to match the flat look of the real deal. Not so clean and shiny any more, huh? The rear of the "football" at the top still needs a coat of flat black on the rear..... The other side BEFORE....... And now AFTER. If you think this is too strong a look, a bit more paint can always be added later to blend things a bit more. I may re-do some areas, but I'll wait until the rest of the jet is painted the same way before I decide. BTW, check out Scott's pics above in Post # 715. You can hardly make out the lettering due to faded wear... You can't see it very well from the pic above, but the leading edge of the stab has a frosted and worn look of metal underneath paint. Now that I've got things sort of figured out for weathering, it's time to attack the rest of the Phantom. Now this should be fun! Edited February 23, 2012 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
galfa Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 How do you drop the salt on the model? By a brush or what? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Neo Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Could you do this technique the other way around i.e paint the normal color and apply the salt weathering with a lighter shade of the main color ?? the reseon i ask is i dont like to mix paint for the main body color as im afraid if i need a touch up i wout be able to get the color just the same mix so if i only mix paint for the weathering it matters much less BTW what color of wash did you use ive ben meaning to buy these but never sur what color i should get Cheers Neo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) How do you drop the salt on the model? By a brush or what? I just use an ordinary salt shaker. You start off with warm water (and just a bit of Windex to break the surface tension) either sprayed on or laid on the surface with a soft brush, followed by shaking salt on the surface. If you want small spots, then dry it immediately with a hair dryer. If you want more of a wider spread blotchy look, then let the salt crystals dissolve in the water and maybe add a few more drops here and there, re-distributing the salt with a brush over the span of maybe 20 minutes. When you're happy with the distribution of the salt, use the hair dryer again and then start spraying your mist coat. After a night to sleep on it, I've decided this look is a bit too much for a vertical surface that drains readily and isn't subject to boot marks and other stains. It should look more like this pic of Scott's, which means I'll just do a few more spray touch-ups to dull the blotchy look.... On the other hand, it does happen sometimes.... The rest of the jet will likely look fairly worn and weathered, if these shots Scott took are any inspiration..... It's hard to believe you get there with a platform that starts out looking like this.... Edited February 23, 2012 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Could you do this technique the other way around i.e paint the normal color and apply the salt weathering with a lighter shade of the main color ?? the reason i ask is i don't like to mix paint for the main body color as I'm afraid if i need a touch up I won't be able to get the color just the same mix so if i only mix paint for the weathering it matters much less BTW what color of wash did you use I've been meaning to buy these but never sure what color I should get. Cheers Neo Certainly you can, which is the way I've always done it in the past. Examples are here: http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=171765 I always have two shades of whatever color I'm painting, which is the standard color and one with white mixed in to lighten it up. The reason I switched the main background color from dark to light is because the majority of the paint will be faded, so I just wanted the highlights to show up as dark, rather than have to re-paint most of the camo colors lighter and risk spraying over demarcation lines too much and covering up what little pre-shading that still shows under the paint. With the good coat of Future underneath everything, this "salt weathering" is almost risk-free because you can just wipe it off with solvent if you don't like what you've done. You can also tone things down a bit by just spraying on more Future, because a lot of the color contrasts are caused by subtle paint ridges and variable shine. Or, as I'm about to do soon with this tail assembly, you can just spray on a bit more paint. BTW, in the pics above, I haven't "sanded" the dull coat yet which gives the paint a bit more a natural looking sheen without being shiny. I usually use some wet and dry emery cloth of 4000 to 6000 grit to get a nice smooth but still dull look. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marcel111 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Chuck, thanks for taking us through your technique... the results look inspiring. I'm glad you'll toned down the effect on the vertical stab, looks perfect now, I think. Marcel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geedubelyer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) {~snip~} After a night to sleep on it, I've decided this look is a bit too much for a vertical surface that drains readily and isn't subject to boot marks and other stains. Good call Chuck. I know the salt technique is a big favourite of yours but when I looked at the fin I confess I wondered how appropriate that technique was on an airforce bird It'll be interesting to see how it looks when you've finished with all of the other various layers and techniques in your arsenal. Now that you've got the cammo done and started the weathering I'm glued to this thread like a moth around a light bulb so please don't keep us waiting too long for another update. Cheers, Edited February 23, 2012 by geedubelyer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Good call Chuck. I know the salt technique is a big favourite of yours but when I looked at the fin I confess I wondered how appropriate that technique was on an airforce bird Thanks Marcel and Guy. Don't get your hopes up too much Guy because THIS is an Air Force bird too! I think I'd need a pound of salt to replicate this look..... Still it's likely the exception rather than the rule during the early 1980's, so don't worry, I won't go too crazy! Here is where this build sits today, so it's going to be a while yet before I call it finished yet: - Weathering wash of entire fuselage, followed by salt technique above- but toned down a bit. - Fuel tanks, pylons, flaps, gear doors, canopy and a hundred other tiny bits are also now painted, but they need a coat of Future, a few decals and some salt weathering as well. The bottoms of the fuel tanks are going to be VERY worn and scratched. - Pave Spike pod will be a new model in itself. This late and very well made resin addition deserves some extra tweaks, like proper sway braces and perfect painting and weathering. Hopefully I can deliver. - I have a lot of tiny things to paint yet, like the antenna football on the tail, the wingtip antennas and the pitot tube area at the front of the radome. I also have all the navigation lights to paint and install. - Re-paint a few titanium panels, as well as add some clear blue to the underside behind the exhausts to show heat staining. - Final assembly, which entails lots of tweaks, fixes and additions. I've got a finely detailed drag chute area and front gun to show off, and the cockpit always needs some late fixes as well. For example, I forgot to make canopy sill slots for the canopy hooks. Stay tuned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marcel111 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Chuck, whie you're busy weathering--and isn't it just the best part of the build--I thought I'd share a weathering tip with you (probably od news but here I go): You could mix some of the base color, say the tan, with some light gray, lets say 2/3 tan, 1/3 gray. Now take an old, fairly small paint brush with short bristles, dip it into the mixture and then use it on scrap paper until virtually all the paint is gone. Now repeatedly brush along a panel of the model. What you should end up with is a discoloring effect. The reason I like using this is that it somehow looks much more natural than if you apply post-shades with airbrush only. If you do this kind of thing with the airbrush your model will end up looking as though you're looking at it through a soft-focus lens, imo. The more hard-edge discoloring effect that the above may give you is more like what I see on the real thing. Marcel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) The rest of the jet will likely look fairly worn and weathered, if these shots Scott took are any inspiration..... Minor correction: this photo was shot by the crew chief of the jet at the time, Bill Stein. He sent it to me a long time ago and I'd forgotten I had it until recently, whereupon I posted it but neglected to give Bill credit for the photo. My bad... Interestingly I also took a photo of 68-0404 but parked in a different area, and the slats and presumably flaps are extended in that photo as well: Chuck, your model is really coming along, I am so looking forward to see the finished project. But don't rush it on my account! Scott W. Edited February 24, 2012 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Chuck, your model is really coming along, I am so looking forward to see the finished project. But don't rush it on my account! Scott W. Thanks Buddy! This will still take some time due to other commitments I have right now, but rest assured I won't rush anything. Last time I did that I put wheels on my Hornet a bit crooked because I just wanted to get it over with- and I paid the price at a model contest! For those who might have been wondering how I could dial back the weathering effects after the fact, here's how the tail looks now with a little selective overspray. I'm really glad I went through this exercise on this small part of the model, because now I know how to attack the rest of the fuselage and wings with a lot less work. Although this type of weathering isn't for everybody, there's nothing in the world more boring to me than a clean jet that looks like it was just released from the paint barn. BTW Marcel, I suck at using a paint brush so I have to spray everything instead. Now some pics, although I can see that the white balance is out between the Before/After shots, but you get the general picture: Before... After..... Before..... After..... Edited February 24, 2012 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
3Putt Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Wow, Chuck, that is looking awesome! Having worked on Phantoms (not Air Force pigs but Marine Corps beauties LOL) I've gotta say you have the paintwork down. I've followed all your builds and this is my first comment and all I can say is thanks for taking the time to put these WIPs together. Bob Edited February 25, 2012 by 3Putt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Youngtiger1 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Chuck, I think you are now a master of salt weathering technique. Well, you'er like 3rd degree black belt with it since this is your 3rd model I'm seeing with salt weathering affect. Keep up the good work Bro. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Chuck will you be weathering the radome like this example :P : http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5217/5515715171_c5b20a9cd6_b.jpg Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Chuck will you be weathering the radome like this example :P : http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5217/5515715171_c5b20a9cd6_b.jpg Jari Ummmmmm, No! :lol: I love dirty jets, but even I have my limits. I also won't be making it look as grimy as this dirty bird taken by Scott, but it IS tempting! Guy would kill me. Current status is the rest of the fuselage and wings have been salt weathered and I'm doing something a little special to the titanium panels in the rear. I gotta tell you guys, I'm peeing my pants! This is going to look SOOOOO good- or at least I hope so! Progress pics in a day or two. Edited February 28, 2012 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnS Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Man Chuck, you're giving your jeans a workout during this build. First blood, now ...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Man Chuck, you're giving your jeans a workout during this build. First blood, now ...... OK, OK, you're right- I'm SUCH a Drama Queen, but I've just got to show a few pics of what I've been doing for several, several, hours over the past few days. Although I know almost nothing about the technical aspects of the F-4 titanium panels, I have studied at least 200 pics to try and "Get" the right look. Too many F-4 builds show them as almost chrome colored, so I wanted something more realistic. These panels, including those in the stabilator, are all over the map for color, discoloration, etc., but some things are fairly common to most of them. First of all, the central panel that comes from the central pivot point is usually darker than the other panels and the front panel is also quite dark sometimes, partially due to some sort of clear coating that is put on the rivets, likely for corrosion protection. This corrosion protection (or whatever it is) can be slapped on haphazardly or sometimes painted on in fairly uniform stripes. There are LOTS of pics that show shiny central panels and some panels with hardly any "striping", but they are the exception, so I went with what is fairly "normal". I think this painted coating attracted and retained extra soot, hence the darker look to the overall panels? The other thing I tried to capture is the look of real titanium that has been weathered, just like the rest of the jet. You guessed it, I used salt for this effect too, so here's some preliminary shots of how things look tonight. I have no weathering wash or dull coat on the painted panels yet, but you can see a bit of the salt weathering on the green tip of the stabilator, including a 'repair" spot I added to the corner of the triangular bracket. Man I love this stage of modeling, even if the masking job on those panels took me at least 4 hours to do both top and bottom with the very same detail! Anyway, here's a couple of pics. It may not be a home-run, but I think it's at least a triple, so I'll let you guys decide. In the meantime, I'm really excited about how the salt weathering enhanced the realism of the rest of the model and Mike, this is my seventh model using this technique, so I'm getting a bit better at it with every new attempt. I'll have pics up of the rest of the fuselage soon. BTW, I wasted another hour picking that walkway decal off the masking tape that lifted it off and then placing it back on! Grrrrrr... Yet another "save", because I didn't have a back-up. Edited February 28, 2012 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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