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1/32 Tamiya F-4E post-Vietnam- Kicked up a notch.


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Here are 2 pics of the modifications I made to the landing gears on my Tamyia F-4S. On the main gear strut I modified the attachement so it represents more the reality. The strut is not "pluged" into a hole, but rotates. To achieve this I changed the strut head to a "T" form.

details_20030928_2.jpg

For the fun, my front gear. As you mentionned it there is plenty of hydraulic lines to add. Actually when you get the impression "I cannot add anything more" then there should be twice as much.

details_20030928_3.jpg

All the pictures are here: My link

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.

My Vietnam era bird (69-7551) is now a circa 1980 one from Ramstein AFB in Germany (68-0393), where I believe Scott was deployed. It's painted in SEA camo, has a shark mouth and it has SLATTED wings! I even got a hold of a Cutting Edge high speed center-line tank, so I think I'm set. Stay tuned for wing surgery, panel line alterations and likely a bit of cussing! ;)

You don't want the Cutting Edge High Perfomance Centerline for the TAM-80 F-4E. Ramstein didn't get the HPC tank until well into the mid-80s. I'm pretty sure it wasn't until at least 1985. Prior to that we used the standard old Royal Jet tank which I presume comes with the Tamiya kit. For sure in 1980 it would've been the Royal Jet tank.

However, we didn't put centerline tanks on our jets except for long cross-country flights anyway. Standard day-to-day flying was with 370s on the wings, nothing on the centerline. The 512 TFS had the nuclear strike mission in addition to standard air-to-ground, so you could put a BDU-38 or B61 on the centerline instead if you want to. Two decent B61s are included in the Testor's 1/32 F-117A. Here's a shot I took of a BDU-38 (which has the exact shape of a B61) on a 512 TFS F-4E on June 7, 1984:

F-4EBDU-38B61ScottWilson-1.jpg

My friend Mike Paredes standing next to a BDU-38 (Mike is 6 feet tall):

BDU-38B61MikeParedesZaragozaABSpainJune71984ScottRWilson.jpg

Closeup of a BDU-38 tailfin, my wristwatch added for scale:

BDU-38B61tailJune71984ZaragozaABScottRWilson.jpg

Edited by Scott R Wilson
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Here are 2 pics of the modifications I made to the landing gears on my Tamyia F-4S. On the main gear strut I modified the attachement so it represents more the reality. The strut is not "pluged" into a hole, but rotates. To achieve this I changed the strut head to a "T" form.

details_20030928_2.jpg

For the fun, my front gear. As you mentionned it there is plenty of hydraulic lines to add. Actually when you get the impression "I cannot add anything more" then there should be twice as much.

details_20030928_3.jpg

All the pictures are here: My link

Pierre, I still remember giving you advice on details when you were building that F-4S. You did some truly amazing work, and I'm glad I could contribute to your efforts. Someday I'd like to see it in person. It's got to be the most detailed and most accurate F-4 model ever made.

Scott Wilson

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Thanks Scott- and Pierre!

Scott, I confess that I put out there that I was thinking about including the newer high speed center line tank because I wasn't sure whether or not it was accurate- and I was hoping you would reply. Like a good Brown Trout, you rose to my fly and I thank you. I didn't just make this up, however, because the AirDoc decal sheet specifically shows certain F-4's with them attached while others have the older Royal ones. For instance, it shows 68-0393 (the one I'm now building) with the new high speed tank and 69-0262 with the older Royal one. Having said that, all the pics I can find of 68-0393 have the 370 wing tanks, so I was a bit confused.

That B-61 bomb looks like just the ticket, but what other ordnance would be accurate for 1980 during TAM? As we've discussed already, I don't have the proper AIM-9P missiles, but I recall you mentioning that these jets usually flew with bombs instead anyway. What type sir (and color)?

And thanks for the kind comments from everyone else. I love attention. :rolleyes: I promise you, when I'm done, this Phantom will be pretty cool, but the only problem is that I take FOREVER to finish. Right now I'm at my regular ETA of about 6 months.

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Thanks Scott- and Pierre!

Scott, I confess that I put out there that I was thinking about including the newer high speed center line tank because I wasn't sure whether or not it was accurate- and I was hoping you would reply. Like a good Brown Trout, you rose to my fly and I thank you. I didn't just make this up, however, because the AirDoc decal sheet specifically shows certain F-4's with them attached while others have the older Royal ones. For instance, it shows 68-0393 (the one I'm now building) with the new high speed tank and 69-0262 with the older Royal one. Having said that, all the pics I can find of 68-0393 have the 370 wing tanks, so I was a bit confused.

That B-61 bomb looks like just the ticket, but what other ordnance would be accurate for 1980 during TAM? As we've discussed already, I don't have the proper AIM-9P missiles, but I recall you mentioning that these jets usually flew with bombs instead anyway. What type sir (and color)?

And thanks for the kind comments from everyone else. I love attention. :rolleyes: I promise you, when I'm done, this Phantom will be pretty cool, but the only problem is that I take FOREVER to finish. Right now I'm at my regular ETA of about 6 months.

Chuck, I just wrote to the webmaster of this site, Bob Herring, to ask what ordnance the 512th carried: http://www.512dragons.org/

He flew with that squadron during the timeframe your model will represent, so he should have some good info for you. I'll let you know what I find out. By the way, for what it's worth, nukes are designated without the dash (though even official sources sometimes screw that up too). For instance, a B57 is a smallish tactical nuke, while a B-57 is the Canberra medium bomber. The B61 is a tactical nuke, while B-61 was the orginal designation of the Matador missile, later redesignated TM-61:

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=2692

Scott W.

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Thanks Scott, that ordnance info would be really helpful. Speaking of which, most of the pics I have show some sort of tank on the inside pylons along with the fuel tanks on the outside. Is that a tank, practice bomb or storage canister?

Also, there's often a white pod which looks different from the ALQ-71 jammer I had in mind for the Vietnam version. What is this?

And of course, the hardest question to answer: Where do I find this stuff in 1/32?

Thanks again.

Chuck

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Do you mean this (ALQ-131):

68-0381526TFS86TFWRamsteinSept18198.jpg

Or this (PAVE SPIKE)?

68-0375512TFS86TFWZaragozaAug1983ScottRWilson.jpg

Unfortunately I have no idea where either can be had in 1/32 scale. Pods on the inboard pylon would be either travel pods (converted from napalm bombs) or SUU-21 practice bomb dispensers.

Scott W.

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Pods on the inboard pylon would be either travel pods (converted from napalm bombs) or SUU-21 practice bomb dispensers.

Scott W.

A picture is worth a thousand words- and this is a GREAT pic of 68-0393 in the exact markings I'm going to do. What are those inboard tanks? They look different than the outboard fuel tanks at the nose......

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=816548

Edited by chuck540z3
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A picture is worth a thousand words- and this is a GREAT pic of 68-0393 in the exact markings I'm going to do. What are those inboard tanks? They look different than the outboard fuel tanks at the nose......

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=816548

Those are green-painted SUU-21 practice bomb dispensers, see the white one on the pylon behind the BDU-38 nuke shape on the F-4E centerline that I posted above (the SUU-21 is numbered 0077 in that photo). In the photo of 393 you linked, she is also carrying a Pave Spike pod in the forward left missile well, I can see its silhouette.

Most USAFE units used SUU-21s for air-to-ground practice. I think they carried eight practice bombs, either BDU-33 or Mk.106s depending on what mission they were practicing. The BDU-33 has the same ballistics as a Mk 82 while the Mk 106 simulates a nuke's trajectory. The SUU-21 had electrically actuated bomb bay doors that slid up inside the pod (doors are open in my photo) that I've been told were opened by throwing the same switches in the same order that would arm a live nuke, so using the SUU-21 gave the crew practice for the nuclear mission. I know someone makes a resin SUU-21 in 1/48, but I don't know if there is one available in 1/32.

Scott W.

Edited by Scott R Wilson
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Thanks guys for the feedback! I continue to learn new stuff every day with your input.

Now the slatted wings. The only way to get slatted wings on the Tamiya kit using after-market parts is to find an old Cutting Edge conversion kit, like this one used to convert the F-4C/D kit to an F-4E. This kit has a LOT of parts, but most of them are of no use to me because I already have many of them with the F-4E kit and the Avionix cockpit......

Slatset1.jpg

The slatted wing parts are all I need, which look like this with the outboard parts on the bottom and the inboard parts at the top, which brings me to a big decision point. Parked F-4E's have the inboard slats in the fully retracted position, so all you see is the 3 big hinges on the bottom and a raised ridge along the back of the slat as it sits on the wing. To replicate this look, all I need to do is use the hinges and add a bit of styrene to the top of the flap. The problem is, all those nice parts at the top are useless if I want this look, because they create a slat that is slightly deployed in the forward/down position, as it would normally be for take-offs and landings.....

Slats14.jpg

After struggling with whether or not I should use them, I thought what the heck- it's my model and I should do whatever I want- so I decided to use them after all. I know, I know, they will look wrong, but they also will look very cool and give this build a relatively unique look you don't normally see on a Tamiya F-4. Besides the super-rare Cutting Edge kit cost me a fortune and I can't see paying all that money for just the outer wing parts.

Like most resin kits, the instructions that go with this set are only so-so, especially on the exact details of where to cut the wing. All they show is a grey area that roughly coincides with the panel lines of the existing front flap, so I started there. Knowing that I was likely to cut the wing, I did not glue the wing halves together yet, which makes a scriber the perfect tool to cut the thin plastic in a clean and straight line that follows the existing panel lines....

Slats1.jpg

I did this for both the top and bottom wing halves, then cemented them together. Before I did that, however, I added some reinforcement by way of sprue bits to support the wing against the fuselage, which is a flaw of this kit. Without support, the wing can flex, especially towards the back, which will crack any glue or putty you may have placed along the wing to fuselage boundary. Note the pencil line along where the top of the wing fits against the fuselage, to help determine position and height of the sprue reinforcements.

Slats3.jpg

After trimming the top wing for fit, it is then cemented on to the bottom wing along the edges, the top of the gear housing and the sprue bits. No glue is required along the wing to fuselage boundary, which will be filled with a very thin bead of putty later to seal things up. As always, you can't have enough clamps when gluing wings together....

Slats4.jpg

With the front of the wing cut out, you can spot weld many areas within the wing, like the gear wells and other areas that need improved bond or reinforcement. To do this I dripped medium viscosity CA glue through the front opening with the model tilted in the best position to let gravity work as I squeezed the top wing to the bottom. Using this method, the gear well to wing join is both tight and rock solid, which is very difficult without access from behind....

Slats5.jpg

I then inserted the resin slat part into the opening, using a spacer on the outboard part and plenty of CA glue, which I prefer over putty due to it's strength and the ability to re-scribe panel lines later.......

Slats6.jpg

I inserted this resin part so that it was tight to both the top and bottom cut lines of the kit flap. Well, this turned out to be a DISASTER!!! By doing it this way, the bottom of the slat part was tilted upwards and it did not lay flat, which is required for everything to fit properly like the bottom hinge actuators. After trying unsuccessfully to pry everything apart and start all over (that CA glue is strong for a reason), I was left with no choice but to make another "save" of this project by using styrene to build up the bottom so that it now lay perfectly flat. Here's a pic of the new bottom with a hinge actuator laid on top for flat alignment. With all the clear CA glue, it's hard to see what's fill and what isn't. For instance, at the top of the flap part the clear gap is actually CA glue sanded flat with the white styrene. Also note that there is a hinge at the rear of the flap leftover from the kit, which doesn't not exist on newer slatted wings because the main flap doesn't tilt down like the old ones.....

Slats10.jpg

By building up the bottom, I also had to remove resin material from the top or the flap part would be too thick for the front slats to fit on. Dymo tape protected the rest of the wing as I used rough sandpaper to basically re-manufacture this slat part.....

Slats11.jpg

Once this was done (after about 7 hours of hard labor!), I thoroughly checked the fit of the opposite side and made an important discovery. Although the top of the kit flap should be cut on the panel line boundary, the bottom should be cut rearwards of the kit hinge. The resin pieces have a very faint hinge on them which obviously replaces the hinge that is cut off- and they are not symmetrical top to bottom, which caused my problem on the other wing. Here's how the bottom should fit.........

Slats13.jpg

Edited by chuck540z3
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And here's what the top looks like when installed correctly. You need to make sure to create groove lines as indicated to accommodate the front slat when it is parked, even though it remains raised when assembled.....

Slats8.jpg

Moving onto the outer wing parts, I have discovered that resin shrinking has taken it toll again. That main hinge along the bottom edge (middle) is way too short to fit the kit wing hinge (left). Note how much shorter it is than the kit part on the right....

Slats16.jpg

My options are as follows:

1) Cut off the hinge from the kit part and attach it to the resin wing instead. This option is most likely.

2) Cut off the front and sides of the resin wing and add them back to the kit part like others have done before. Option #1 is easier, but maybe I'm missing something.

3) Bash the resin hinge into the kit hinge by removing teeth and replacing the broken ones. I think this will always be messy, even with thorough clean-up.

While I'm doing that, I need to re-scribe slatted wing panel lines which are wrong on the resin part, remove some others and get those wing tips at 12.5 degrees instead of the kit angle of 25 degrees or so. I sure hope I don't screw this step up too. I'm running out of saves!

Meanwhile, can anyone tell me if I should use these 2 cameras that are mounted (1 front, 1 back) near the front of the wing root? I may as well use them if they're accurate, but if they're not, there's no point.....

Camera1.jpg

Edited by chuck540z3
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Starting with the last thing first, 68-0393 didn't have the strike cameras. I've read someplace which tail numbers had them but can't remember, but for sure the 68-model Phantoms at Ramstein didn't have them.

It was uncommon but not impossible to find a parked F-4E with flaps and slats down, so no sweat on doing that on your model. FWIW what would be the inboard leading edge flap (next to the fuselage) on a non-slatted wing retained its bottom hinge on the slatted wing, and while there were no hydraulics to move the flap, it could be hinged down for maintenance. There were fasteners along the top to hold it in position, remove the fasteners and the flap pivoted down. I hope that's clear, I don't think I have any photos of it lowered.

Cutting Edge missed all the panel line changes for the slatted wing. Here are some of my photos that might be useful:

Scan1231.jpg

Scan1085.jpg

Scan910.jpg

Scan902.jpg

Scan1298.jpg

Scan1303.jpg

Scan1308.jpg

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Here's a website with good photos of the F-4E on display at a museum in Munich with the slats out; these photos ought to be helpful:

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/howard_mason5/f-4e_munich/index.php?Page=1

Note in this particular photo that the wing surface at the trailing edge of the inboard slat is not grooved or indented in any way; the retracted inboard slat just rests tight against it. The trailing edge of the slat is thin enough that it doesn't make a discernable step or bump when it's tight against the wing:

http://data4.primeportal.net/hangar/howard_mason5/f-4e_munich/images/f-4e_munich_06_of_56.jpg

Here's some more of my photos which might be pertinent:

Outboardslat2-1.jpg

this one courtesy of Ben Brown:

F-4E_outerwing-1.jpg

Scan1098.jpg

Scan907.jpg

F-4GwingtipMarch1990McChordAFBScottRWilson.jpg

57FISwingScottRWilson.jpg

Scott W.

Edited by Scott R Wilson
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Thanks again Scott, those pics are pure gold to me right now. In Jake's book he has several pics of the rear of the inboard slat and there appears to be a groove which, now that I see the pics you've supplied, is just a painted on stripe, which brings me to another question. On a SEA camo-painted bird like 68-0393, what color is underneath the slats on the wing (both sides)? Some of your prior pics show a very distinctive red stripe at the rear edge. Is that just a stripe or is it red underneath the slat too? Anyway, with a little sanding I can get the rear looking correct again.

Those shots underneath the inboard slat are great too. I went to great pains getting the repaired slat to look like the Cutting Edge kit one on the bottom, only to find that it's totally wrong now. Figures! :angry: I'll have to make some more alterations on these as well.

One cool shot you supplied below also shows the detail of an inboard pylon, which clearly shows that those "wings" at the top of it don't actually touch in a flush position the bottom of the wing. This is great to know now, because I recall having difficulty getting the kit ones to touch in my last F-4J build. Apparently they don't! :woot.gif:

Scan1085.jpg

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Thanks again Scott, those pics are pure gold to me right now. In Jake's book he has several pics of the rear of the inboard slat and there appears to be a groove which, now that I see the pics you've supplied, is just a painted on stripe, which brings me to another question. On a SEA camo-painted bird like 68-0393, what color is underneath the slats on the wing (both sides)? Some of your prior pics show a very distinctive red stripe at the rear edge. Is that just a stripe or is it red underneath the slat too? Anyway, with a little sanding I can get the rear looking correct again.

Those shots underneath the inboard slat are great too. I went to great pains getting the repaired slat to look like the Cutting Edge kit one on the bottom, only to find that it's totally wrong now. Figures! :angry: I'll have to make some more alterations on these as well.

One cool shot you supplied below also shows the detail of an inboard pylon, which clearly shows that those "wings" at the top of it don't actually touch in a flush position the bottom of the wing. This is great to know now, because I recall having difficulty getting the kit ones to touch in my last F-4J build. Apparently they don't!

The undersides of the inboard slats... I sure wish I'd taken photos of the extended slats way back when, as I don't remember for sure how they were painted on white bellied airplanes. I do know the upper wing suface under the slat had the same camouflage pattern as if the slat wasn't there. I THINK the underside of the slat was likewise the same as the top camouflage color. The Euro-1 jet in Munich is painted that way. On Ramstein's SEA painted jets, there was a light gray painted stripe and a red stripe on the wing behind the trailing edge of the inboard slats. The light gray stripe was twice as wide, with 1/2 of its width under the trailing edge of the retracted slat. The outboard slat had just the red stripe painted behind the trailing edge of the slat. The stripes were to tell you where not to have your feet when the slats moved. They move very fast, fully in to fully out and vice-versa in about one second. Here's a re-post of my photo illustrating what I'm saying:

F-4ESEAleftwingScottWilson-1.jpg

Glad I could help on the inboard pylon question. Note there was a gap between the pylon and wing except at the front and rear of the pylons and at the ends of the sway braces (wings).

Scott W.

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Good stuff. Thanks again Scott.

Back to the wings and inboard slats!

The Cutting Edge resin kit is not very good. Some parts are OK, but most are full of casting flaws and bubbles. Still, for the Tamiya kit, it's the only real slatted wing option out of the box. Since these kits are now very rare and now very expensive, I recommend a hybrid of the Paragon Designs inboard slat kit made for the Revell kit and outboard wing parts from the Revell kit itself. Comparing these parts to the Tamiya and Cutting edge parts, a few edits here and a few edits there should result in a credible slatted wing product. When you see what I'm going to do to the outboard wings, you'll see that no kit is perfect and heavy edits are necessary anyway.

Before I get to the wings I thought I'd show how the wing to fuselage join should be filled with putty. This was done with Testors contour putty which has a thin applicator top and a Q-tip dipped in Tamiya lacquer thinner run along the seam. With a little light sanding, this seam will almost disappear....

Wing1.jpg

After getting the inboard wing parts installed properly and sanding out all the flaws, I installed the 3 hinge actuators for the top slat on the bottom of the wing, which should sit perfectly flat and flush to the bottom of the wing. I also added some rivet and panel line detail as per Scott's pics above, but I didn't go too crazy with exact rivet detail because the real deal looks very chaotic anyway. I stuck with just the obvious rivet and panel line patterns as shown below on the port side with a bit of dark wash for contrast. Note that all the clear looking gaps and rough spots (like on the hinges) are filled with CA glue, so you can't tell they are really flat and smooth with the rest of the wing. You can also still see the glue filled panel lines left over from the kit, which are total fantasy.....

Wing11.jpg

The starboard side, with the styrene "save" as described a few posts above....

Wing12.jpg

With the hinges centered and flush on the bottom, it doesn't mean the top parts of the hinges will be centered within the holes of the leading edge of the wing. The starboard side is OK, other than broken hinge tips where I added CA glue to build them up.....

Wing2.jpg

But the unaltered port side has a distinctive shift of the hinge parts inboard....

Wing3.jpg

Further complicating things, the top slats are also full of flaws that need to be repaired, like the chipped off corner of the top slat on the right side and the hinge receptacle on the lower slat below. Of course half the parts are cast in beige while others are in dark grey resin, but the most aggravating factor is that they WON'T FIT the hinges on the wing! No matter what I tried, I could not get them to fit without looking crooked and totally out of alignment. Anticipating this potential problem, I glued them lightly to the hinges first, then tried to install them onto the wing later. Although they fit the slat much better, the hinge wouldn't sit flush on the bottom of the wing, so you were in trouble both ways....

Wing4.jpg

After pondering this problem for a day or two, I decided to cut the slat hinge receptacles off completely and sand the bottoms off to a smooth finish.....

Wing5.jpg

Then reattach the hinge receptacles to the hinge actuator itself. This was a lot of careful work to get the parts off the slats without breaking them or cutting through the slat with my knife blade. Here they look on the starboard side before trimming.....

Wing6.jpg

The port side. Again, those cracks, etc. in the wing are filled with clear CA glue, so they still look like there's gaps in the plastic......

Wing7.jpg

Edited by chuck540z3
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With the top slats free of hinges, they can now be glued in the correct angle and lateral position. I won't do this until the very end of the build, because painting and weathering can be done easier with them off. Here' sort of how they will look front to back using masking tape.....

Wing8.jpg

The port side from the rear......

Wing9.jpg

And underneath. I can glue these slats in almost any position I want now without fitment hassles

Wing10.jpg

Next up will be the outboard slatted wings. Hopefully these won't be as much work as the inboard ones.

Thanks for your continued interest in this build.

Chuck

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Thanks Guys,

It's nice to know, that after 1,000 - 2,000 hits after each of my posts, 2 people feel moved enough to comment each time. I'm not looking for praise as much as a little feedback other than from Scott all the time. Apparently my detailed photography is boring, so I'll "kick it up a notch" and only post major steps without pics of every step of how I got there. This takes a lot of time and effort away from actual modeling, so I'm sure my progress will improve dramatically.

Thanks for your continued interest in this build.

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