Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I hope to be able to get started on the Belle this weekend. I've been looking over the kit and doing research since joining up, now its time to have fun with plastic.

This will be my first plane since coming back to modeling a couple of years ago. I've been doing ships in 1/350 till recently, but I've heard the siren song of war birds and decided to take a break from things that float. I built a ton of fighters and bombers when I was modeling as a kid, probably not very well, I'd add. I hope to do credit to the famous bird and the men who flew her, three of whom I have had the pleasure of meeting.

I'm planning a basically OOB build with only some basic scratch building to detail up the interior a bit and to correct the more glaring inaccuracies in the fuselage, like the inclusion of the astro compass bubble. We'll see how this goes as my scratch building skills are somewhat limited. But, I'll take my time and learn as I go, I'm sure by trial and error at times. I'll try to post pictures of my progress as I go and invite your comments, criticisms and suggestions. Now, if I can only figure out how to post the pictures!

Bob

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can build ships you can build any aircraft model. Some of those ship models are nuts. There's an image button that you just copy a link to the photo you want to post. You have to have the photo hosted somewhere on the intereebs first though. I think most use photobucket. Good luck. Get started!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to the build, the Memphis Belle has a special place in my life as it was the first B-17 I ever crawled through. There are some photos I took in the ARC walkaround section. In 1979, the airplane was sitting out at the Memphis airport and the ball turret was gone, so I crawled inside with a friend of mine. We actually took two trips down there (we were in Carbondale IL going to A & P school at the time). She was in pretty rough shape as nothing had been done to her other enclosing some of the busted out windows with sheet metal. The nose had been heavily Bondoed and the interior gutted by vandals. It was kind of sad. Glad to see the AFM has her and hope they do a good job. They invited me over when they got her because they had seen my photos on line and wanted to scan the original negatives as I had been inside prior to any restoration attempts. That was quite an honor!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob!

Glad you're building! I can't wait to see some progress pics as well, as I'm sure you've learned a few things from building ships you'll be using here, I look forward to seeing your approach to this build.

Cheers!

Mark.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to the forum. Will be looking forward to your progress pictures.

As to pictures and avatars (I know your gonna ask) go to:

ARC >Air Discussion Forums > General Discussion - NO POLITICS >Forum FAQ

Then check out the pined topics.

or click on these two for your questions.

how to post pictures

&

how to show an avatar

Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve,

Thanks for taking the initiative and nipping a question in the butt before we all get ourselves confused again, hahaha. Cheers mate!

As well, we may address the issues with posting here on ARC, including the GB more than anything. You'll find the following:

-For every post you put up without pictures, forum karma builds against you. You will find a hint of frustration building from members, who even though will not say anything, begin to make a 'list'... I should know, I've been on more lists than anyone else.

-For every picture you do post, you will be hinted to post more, as we all cannot get enough of other peoples builds. We love to see "gut shots" of interior detail and work throughout.

-You will be hounded to no end if you've done something right with compliments, and "way to go!" comments. Get used to it... seems that folks here have grown a definite love for stuff that looks great.

-If you do something VERY wrong, the hints will be subtle, and criticism constructive to fixing the error, but if you decide to ignor it and continue on, nothing will ever be held against you - we understand we make models, not the actual aircraft.

-Upon completion of the build, you SHALL take a million and one pictures showing every detail, nook and cranny, and we will silently be counting the finer details, like the stiching on the seats and seat belts, the number of cooling finds on each cylinder casing, and ensuring that you follow the rules of a safe build (which means that the '50's are at least made-safe, the fuses are not armed in the bombs, and that the master power switch in the cockpit is turned off - we don't want your work flying off on you in the middle of the night).

-Proper PSI is a must for the main landing gear tires, we don't want a blow out on the work bench, the conciquences can be potentially fatal to any 1/72 or 1/48 crew member who is standing far to close.

-Rivet counting and then subsequent posting on is highly verboten (forbidden).

-There is a NO TOLERANCE policy for painting exhaust stains coming directly from the 4 hot-air vents aft of the engines... unless your bomber has suffered catastrophic engine damage from a 1/48 or 1/72 Bf 109 or Fw 190... those little buggers can be really sneaky.

-Speling wile poasting is a must, I canot stress enuf how much we can't stand misspeled poasts.

And last but not least - a serious nature will not be tolerated at all. There is a minimal daily quota of humor, jokes, and outright silliness from every person in the GB that will be met. Failure to meet the quota will result in random comments being posted causing you to at least chuckle a little. If that fails, we will take away your model glue.

Did I miss anything guys?

Link to post
Share on other sites
There is a NO TOLERANCE policy for painting exhaust stains coming directly from the 4 hot-air vents aft of the engines...

:thumbsup:

That's my all-time numero-uno mostest biggest B-17 modeling pet peeve!

SN

Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve, thanks for the preemptive strike on the photo post question. We both knew it was coming! LOL. Thanks also for the warm welcome.

After doing some work this weekend on the Academy Memphis Belle I had intended to be my contribution to the GB, I find myself on the horns of a dilemma. What I'm really looking for is something with a bit more, for lack of a better word, "pop". Not really as an alternative to the Academy Belle, but in addition. I've rolled this up in my mind with a project I've been planning for a while, which is to build a 1/48 Belle to display in my office as an accompaniment to a print of the Belle which I was lucky enough to have signed by Col. Morgan a number of years ago when I was lucky enough to actually meet him at the Belle when she was still at Mud Island. The print is also signed by the co-pilot and one of the waist gunners, who I met at an air show the next day a bit north of Memphis on Col. Morgan's suggestion.

The long term plan is to display this 1/48 Belle along with a 1/48 B-24D in my office. I picked up a '90s vintage Revel 1/48 Memphis Belle kit at a modeling show a while back. It is pretty bare on detail when compared to the 1/48 G model Revel kit. I can live with the bareness and do a little scratch building, but I've also thought about getting the True Details resin sets for the cockpit, waist gun positions and nose compartment. I would think the cockpit set should be pretty much 100% usable, with the nose compartment and waist gun positions being at least partially useful. This being something I'm going to display in my office, I don't mind spending a buck or two up detail up. My question is this - am I on the mark on the applicability of the G model resin kits to the F model?

Any input is appreciated. I'll try to get some pictures of what I got done over the weekend up shortly. I've had to divide my attentions this weekend between modeling and being Dr. and nurse to my wife, who is ungodly sick with the flu. How I have escaped, I'll never know. But, maybe this will bank up some indulgence for a new addition to the stash or two. (Translation - I don't have to sneak them into the house).

Bob

Link to post
Share on other sites
Steve,

Thanks for taking the initiative and nipping a question in the butt before we all get ourselves confused again, hahaha. Cheers mate!

As well, we may address the issues with posting here on ARC, including the GB more than anything. You'll find the following:

-For every post you put up without pictures, forum karma builds against you. You will find a hint of frustration building from members, who even though will not say anything, begin to make a 'list'... I should know, I've been on more lists than anyone else.

-For every picture you do post, you will be hinted to post more, as we all cannot get enough of other peoples builds. We love to see "gut shots" of interior detail and work throughout.

-You will be hounded to no end if you've done something right with compliments, and "way to go!" comments. Get used to it... seems that folks here have grown a definite love for stuff that looks great.

-If you do something VERY wrong, the hints will be subtle, and criticism constructive to fixing the error, but if you decide to ignor it and continue on, nothing will ever be held against you - we understand we make models, not the actual aircraft.

-Upon completion of the build, you SHALL take a million and one pictures showing every detail, nook and cranny, and we will silently be counting the finer details, like the stiching on the seats and seat belts, the number of cooling finds on each cylinder casing, and ensuring that you follow the rules of a safe build (which means that the '50's are at least made-safe, the fuses are not armed in the bombs, and that the master power switch in the cockpit is turned off - we don't want your work flying off on you in the middle of the night).

-Proper PSI is a must for the main landing gear tires, we don't want a blow out on the work bench, the conciquences can be potentially fatal to any 1/72 or 1/48 crew member who is standing far to close.

-Rivet counting and then subsequent posting on is highly verboten (forbidden).

-There is a NO TOLERANCE policy for painting exhaust stains coming directly from the 4 hot-air vents aft of the engines... unless your bomber has suffered catastrophic engine damage from a 1/48 or 1/72 Bf 109 or Fw 190... those little buggers can be really sneaky.

-Speling wile poasting is a must, I canot stress enuf how much we can't stand misspeled poasts.

And last but not least - a serious nature will not be tolerated at all. There is a minimal daily quota of humor, jokes, and outright silliness from every person in the GB that will be met. Failure to meet the quota will result in random comments being posted causing you to at least chuckle a little. If that fails, we will take away your model glue.

Did I miss anything guys?

Guys, this is a great example of something I've got to comment on. Since I came back to modeling almost a couple of years ago now, I've been doing ships until recently. I hung out a lot over at the modelwarships.com forum. Something I saw over there was growing trend toward a domination of the boards by what I'll call, for lack of anything better, the "museum accuracy police". Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing them. But, I've seen excellent builds that would be a credit to any display space picked apart because of alleged inaccuracies only a genuine expert - or somebody with too much free time - could ever spot. For example, a radar fit that wasn't quite right for the day, month and year in which the ship was depicted. And, a growing tendency to belittle those who are simply in it for fun - who make models, not the real thing as you so eloquently said. A kind of hyper-accuracy vs. bath tub toy divide.

Since I've been popping in over here I've found that while accuracy is appreciated and gentle hints given if something is too far off the mark, the issue isn't taken with a life and death seriousness. ARC has much more of a sense of "we do this for fun!" than what I've been seeing on the ship boards. Guys, I do do this for fun. If I'm going to turn my hobby into work, I'll just go to the office. I do this to get away from work, and I get a sense that that is the pervasive attitude here. Its awfully darned refreshing!

I'm glad I stuck my head in over here. :D

Bob

P.S.

Lets make that a pair of Belles as my contribution to the GB.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Waiting impatiently, drumming fingers on desk, for Fed Ex, U.P.S., and or U.S.P.S. to show up with the after market for my two Belles. Building is pretty much at a halt till at least some of that shows up. Got some prep work done on the 1/48 Revel kit last night. Kit gone through and a photo copy of the instructions made (this is a 90s vintage kit and the instructions are about to fall apart). Kit annealed in a tub of warm water and scrubbed with Testor's Plasti-Prep and set out to dry over night. Clear parts polished and given a treatment of Future, set out to cure for at least 24 hours.

Ordered a bit more after market yesterday. Been looking all over for some Air Masters .50 M2 barrels. Everybody seemed to be out of stock. I finally found them in both 1/72 and 1/48 at White Ensign in London. Got an e-mail this morning that they had been mailed. No comparison between the kit barrels and the Air Masters turned brass jobs. Now, if Squadron will get it together .....

Been spending time doing research. According to The Memphis Belle Association the Belle was interior green throughout, so that's the way I'm going to paint her. They also say that the floor of the nose compartment was bare plywood. Anybody got anything to contradict this? Since the Belle was an early F, and as I understand Boeing had not yet totally standardized the interior set up, I suppose this is entirely possible and I'm inclined to defer to the MBA unless there is good evidence to the contrary.

I'm planning on sitting down tonight with my razor saw and opening the bomb bay doors on the big Belle. Got the bombs and (very) basic interior with the kit and I'm planning on displaying it on a mirror base, so need to open the doors and see about scratch building some structure using the G model kit as a guide. We'll see.

I'm also planning on cutting the control surfaces loose so that they can be posed down. I'm not sure if I'll do the flaps as well, or just the elevators and ailerons. Sitting there with all of the control surfaces fixed it will look just like what it is, a model. May also do the rudder, not sure yet. I'd love to do the flaps, but they would look totally wrong dropped without structure in them and I'm not sure my scratch building skills are up to it. Could try Eduard's PE for the flaps, but I don't want this getting out of hand either. Again, we'll see.

I'll try to post some pics tonight or in the morning of whatever progress I make tonight.

Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I can say, is that the control surfaces would pretty much all be as the they are molded in the kit. The flaps were only down on take off or landing, unless being worked on. The rudder would be locked when on the ground so it blow around in the wind. Go look at pics, model what you see.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, I'll go back and take another look. There has always been something that bothered me about a model just sitting there with its control surfaces all nice and straight. But, it that's the way she looked when she was parked, then thats the way she looked.

Bob

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, guys. I went back last night and looked over my references again last night and that's the conclusion I came to. I found one particular photo of the Belle at parked at Washington National during the '45 bond tour and that was the way her control surfaces were set. Just a slight droop to the elevators, like the pilots had pushed the control columns forward just a bit to help them getting out of the seats.

I'm still planning on posing her with the bomb bay doors open. Even though the only photos I've seen with the bomb bays open were of Forts being serviced or bombed up for a mission, I think that will make a more engaging display, since I plan to display her sitting on a mirrored surface. I've ordered the Eduard PE set for the bomb bay, which should detail her up nicely in that area.

Thought or suggestions most welcome.

Bob

Link to post
Share on other sites

With the bomb bay... the only PITA would be to add the rounded top under the turtle deck - I know the 1/48 center bomb rack/cat walk from the kit I have was too tall as it extended all the way up through the turtle deck. Otherwise, have fun! As much as I've grown to hate framing, it's fun in it's own silly little way.

And the Eduard set will save a lot of time as well! Worth the money for sure.

I think it'll look superb! Can't wait to see some pictures (hint-hint)

Edited by Kostucha
Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to hear that about the Eduard PE set. I've found about all of their stuff to be first rate and fairly easy to work with, compared to some. I would expect that I should be able to file center bomb rack/cat walk down to proper height with my PE file. Any tips or suggestions are greatly appreciated. I swear, there's no place like ARC in terms of guys so willing to share experiences, some of them hard won, and tips. You just can't beat airplane modelers!

As for the pictures, I promise, guys, I'll have some up this weekend. She Who Must Be Obeyed (SWMBO) is still recovering from the H1N1 flu, so I have a rare free weekend to work at my bench. I'm going to start work, tonight I hope, with some surgery. Planning on cutting the elevators free and doing the putty work on them and the horizontal stabilizers, and cutting the bomb bay doors loose. Depending on what, if any, after market comes in today I may get some work done on the interior of the fuselage.

Bob

Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert, I was in the Memphis Belle in 1979 prior to any "restoration" by the well meaning group in Memphis. The Belle was not painted greeen inside. Originally, the nose, cockpit, and radio room were all lined with insulation that was covered with fabric that was more or less olive in color (Polly Scale French Khaki is close but I don't think it is available any more). The waist was unpainted and the bombay was neutral gray. Take a look at the photos in the walk around section here on ARC of the Memphis Belle. The bombardiers floor was unpainted wood, the navigators floor and the floor directly in front of the pilots were bare aluminum. The floor in the radio compartment, around the top turret, and the floor sections in the waist all had rubber matting glued to them for anti-skid purposes.

In this photo, you can see some of the remaining fabric on the sidewall. You can also see the Dull Dark Green that was used around the window frames. There is overspray on the sidewall from where they painted the top turret support structure.

Bellephotos1979033.jpg

This photo of the nose shows the DDG used for the structure for the large nose windows that supported the guns. You can also see the bare metal floor for the naviagtor and on the right side of the photo you can see where the insulation was glued to the bulkhead. It's that kind of light tan looking stuff you see hanging down.

Bellephotos1979028.jpg

The insulation (in very poor condition) shows a little better here. Also the supports for the oxygen cylinders, painted DDG.

Bellephotos1979014edit.jpg

And here is one photo that shows the NG in the bombay.

Bellephotos1979012.jpg

Oh, and the elevators would be down when the control lock was installed. The controls were ususally locked when the airplane is parked.

Link to post
Share on other sites

100th, thanks for the pictures and the information. I'll take another look at the pictures of the Belle in the walkaround section. There has been been so much contradictory, misleading and downright wrong information printed about the Belle that is is hard to sort out what is valid from the garbage. I have the impression that the Memphis Belle Association, though well meaning as you say, is hardly the last word in information about her. Obviously, they had some definite short comings in their preservation work for the Air Force to take possession of the plane and move it to Dayton. I do remember from one of my visits to the Belle when she was still at Mud Island that the bombardier's floor was bare wood. But, I was not sure it that was her war time configuration, or if it was simply an expedient used in her preservation at Memphis. Your post answers that and a number of other questions for me. It would make sense that the elevators would be a bit "drooped" when she was parked and the controls locked since the pilots would be expected to push the control columns forward just a bit to help them ease out of their seats.

Bob

Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing that is a little unclear to most modelers is how the bombardiers floor was installed. It actually slopes up (compared to the centerline of the A/C). The right and left pieces extended into the nose Plexiglas. The center section had two pieces. This left an opening for the bombardiers heat duct and left the area under the seat open. BUT... the seat was removed and usually the area had a few seat cushions for the bombardier to sit or kneel on.

This picture kind of shows what I am getting at. You can also see the fabric is missing from the interior and some of the insulation is still in place overhead.

Twinnoseguns.jpg

Here is a profile with the floors highlighted in red:

Fnoseprofile2.jpg

This is a drawing I made in AutoCAD of the bombardiers floor as it would have been from the factory on a late F. When the Belle came from the factory, she had a diiferrent seat from the one in the profile view above and the red portion would not have been there. Most likely, when the seat was removed, they probably covered the whole area with plywood. Just speculation on my part.

Ffloor.jpg

Here is another AutoCAD drawing of the entire nose floor area:

FnoseIso.jpg

Hope this helps out a bit and isn't too confusing! And we haven't even started on how the bombsight was mounted... :D

Both drawings were made using the Boeing blueprints for reference.

Edited by 100th BG
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a screen shot from the Memphis Belle documentary showing battle damage in the nose and the fabric and insulation hangin down.

Nosefabric.jpg

Here is one showing battle damge in the nose of "Lucille Ball". This would be over the navigators head.

LUCILLEBALLnose.jpg

Here is what that area would have looked like before somebody filled it full of holes:

Navequip.jpg

How much of this stuff would you guys like? I have always been fascinated with the structure, systems. and interior equipment and fittings of the B-17, especially the F. As an aircraft mechanic who also spent a number of years flying with "Sentimental Journey" I probably have a somewhat unique view of this stuff. I want to share, but don't want to overdo it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...