100th BG Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 My name is Karl Hauffe and I am a B-17 nutcase... Is there a B-17 nutcase anonymous? Perhaps we could start one :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 My name is Karl Hauffe and I am a B-17 nutcase... Is there a B-17 nutcase anonymous? Perhaps we could start one :) Hi Karl. We already did... I threw something together under the guise of "The Flying Fortress Group Build"... or something to that effect! There's coffee and donuts at the back! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 Karl, bring it on. I'm eatin' this stuff with a spoon! I can't get enough info on how these birds actually looked. I don't know how much I'll actually use in my Belle build, but you can't have too much information to work with. I got the elevators detached today. Of course, a small gap was left at the leading edge of the elevators and a much larger gap left at the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizers. After a false start trying to fill the gap with Bondo I went with Apoxie Sculpt and that was the trick. Stuff has to cure for about 24 hours before I can sand it down. So, work on another on going project for the rest of the day and back to the drooping elevators tomorrow. IF I don't screw this pooch I'll post some pictures of the process and the results tomorrow afternoon. I pucker up every time I take a razor saw or knife to plastic. I'm hardly a master scratch builder (h**l, I'm barely a competent scratch builder) and every time I set out on one of these projects I live in fear of the moment in when it dawns on me that "God, I've really messed this up!". Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
100th BG Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 A few years back, I actually made up the pieces for the F floor in 1/48th. Kind of had a idea to perhaps produce them somehow. But like most of my plans, I never got any further... Here are the main floor pieces sitting in the Revell fuselage: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Karl, you and I need to start a business together. Great insight into how the floors in the F Fort were layed out. I do hope someday - not to hijack this thread - to build a 1/48 F, who knows when that will happen, but maybe someday. Anywho, back to this build, Bob, you gotta be easier on yourself mate! Post the pictures, let us critique it and make comments like that... just kidding of course. But, certainly I and many others are looking forward to your progress pics. Sure does sound like you're right back into the mix of aircraft models. Cheers, Mark. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve N Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I would appreciate some wartime shots of G flight decks. Not so much the instrument panel and controls (plenty of those about) but the rest of the cabin. Hey Karl, I've got pretty comprehensive pics of the interior of the restored B-17E at Blue Ash. Should I post them, or do you think it might muddy the waters (even though they did a fantastic job, you've mentioned to me that the did get a few things incorrect.) SN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
100th BG Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Hi Steve, yes I think we could make that a pinned topic (your E photos) as they would make good reference material. The structure really didn't change. It's been a while since I have seen those photos, but IIRC the cockpit was pretty good other than the rather bright color. Also, I think they didn't put the fabric in did they? Kind of stange that they took the time and effort to restore the fabric in the radio room (but skipped the bulkheads?) then didn't install it in the nose or cockpit. What are you interested in in the cockpit? I can copy the pictures from the pilot manual of the items on the sidewalls by each pilot. Most of that stuff was the same from the E on. Main change anyone would notice is the oxygen equipment went from the constant flow system to demand but even that is not going to matter to most modelers in our scales. Or are you interested in the area around the turret? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Karl, that's impressive work. Are those done up in resin? If you have any interest in starting up a garage business producing stuff like that that it sure looks like you have the gift for it to me. Guys, I'm not being hard on myself about my scratch building skills, I'm just being a realist. LOL. As Harry Calahan said, a man has to know his limitations. But, even I can muddle through the odd simple job now and then. I'll have a much better sense of how this is working out in the morning after the Apoxie has set. Looks good so far, but the metal meets the meat when I start filing and sanding tomorrow. For better or worse, I'll post photos of it however it comes out. Thanks for all the help and input, guys, I'll take all I can get! But yeah, I am getting full swing back into groove of aircraft modeling. I loved these things when I was a young guy and I've found I still do. Great fun and unlike the old days, thanks to sites like ARC I get to enjoy swapping stories, advice, experiences, what have you, with you guys. Life is good. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
100th BG Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Thank you Bob. Those are all Evergreen styrene and putty. It was a challenge and a bit fun! But I don't have a clue how to reproduce the parts. The main thing is you are enjoying your hobby again and the folks here are more than happy to share the enjoyment with you. Any input you get here will be well intended and not meant as a slam. So post your pictures and don't worry about it. We all have different skill levels. And we have all also made numerous mistakes along the way. Or at least I sure as heck have... and still am :blink: This group build has gathered together a small group of folks who have common interests and who share their information. THANK YOU MARK!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Testing, testing, testing. I'm going to see if this works before I try a post with a bunch of photos and mess it up. LOL Patience, guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Progress and promised pictures. Well, it worked. I suppose even a blind hog can find an acorn every once in a while. Progress was made over the weekend. I got the elevators separated from the stabs with my trusty razor saw. Taped off the styrene to protect it from slippage on the blade. I made no effort to preserve the attachment points as these will be replaced at final assembly with points made from sheet styrene and sanded to a rounded end to look like hinges to which the elevators would be attached. Next I filled in the voids in the stabs and elevators using Apoxie Sculpt and sheet styrene to keep the stabs from collapsing. Had a bit of a false start here when I first tried Bondo as a filler due to it's quick drying qualities. Bad idea. Wound up having to sand the excess Bondo off of one of the stabs, loosing some detail. After letting the Apoxie Sculpt cure for about 10 hours I sanded it smooth, sanding a slight concave curvature into the back of the stabs, and sanding an air foil shape into the leading edges of the elevators. Once the cutting, filling and sanding was done I rescribed the lost panel lines on the stab I had to sand, sanded that smooth and primed with Alclad II grey primer. I'm pleased with the results so far. My plan is to paint the elevators and the other fabric covered control surfaces a slightly faded shade of the final color. I think the fabric surfaces would show more fading that the metal surfaces and I want my paint scheme to reflect this. On the subject of the final colors, my best information is that the Belle was painted overall olive drab with some darker green cammo splotches. Which brings me to the question of whether anybody here as any kind of diagram or pattern for the Belle's cammo pattern. I understand that this of course changed over time. If any of you guys have something like this, or know of where I could find it, that would be a real help in the final painting and finishing. Things are on hold now until my after market shows up. UPS says a good deal of it is supposed to be here tomorrow. I hope. Then I can start about determining how much of the True Details resin sets are usable since they are for a G model. I suspect I can use most of the cockpit set and I'll just have to see what I can do with the bombardier's/navigators compartment set. Big question in my mind is filling that hulking bit hole in the floor for the chin turret set up. I'll also have to see how much of the waist sections I can use since the gun mounts were different. Karl, thanks a bunch for all the pics and info on the Belle before she was "restored". I'm going to try to replicate that interior paint scheme as much as I can. I'm also going to try to use your flooring set up in working with the True Details resin set to try to get the floor of the nose compartment as close to accurate as I can. By and chance do you remember the color of the non-skid? Guys, I'm lovin' all these pics, so don't be shy about posting. Anybody with suggestions, thoughts, whatever, feel free. I'm taking all the help I can get. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B-17 guy Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Nice work so far. When you post your pics, they will show up bigger if you use the IMG code, I think your using the img thumb. I use photobucket as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Thanks. I'm still feeling my way on this picture thing. Quick question. I'm planning on opening up the holes in the nose glazing a bit and adding some craft beads to model the mounting balls for the nose guns. Also going to try to do the braces for the nose gun mountings using some thin brass wire. My questions is, I don't think I've ever seen a photo of the Belle in which she had more than one gun mounted in the nose glazing. I can see that she had the two mounts, but it appears that only one was actually mounted, the starboard one. Anybody have any information regarding the whether one or two nose guns is accurate. Thanks, Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B-17 guy Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) 2 guns, that what I've always seen. Edited February 14, 2011 by B-17 guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B-17 guy Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Here ya go http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...131&bih=640 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B-17 guy Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 BUT you are right though, if you go watch the memphis belle documentary, watch as they show her landing. She has only one gun in the nose cone. So based off that and the fact that are pics of her with both guns there, I would say there is no right or wrong answer. This is where you employ your artistic license and build her as you see fit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 B-17 guy, thanks for the input. I was prowling the net early this a.m. and found that picture and another showing her with two guns in the nose mounts. So, I think I'll go with two. Let me get your input on something. I'm thinking of making a thin sheet styrene form to either go between the nose glazing and the front of the fuselage, or just inside the fuselage behind the nose glazing. This would fit the interior contours of the fuselage and be wide perhaps 2 to 3 MM wide, enough for me to drill holes in to fit the nose gun bracing wires though. Then, run the bracing wires from a small piece of round tubing CAed to the back of the craft beads to represent the mounts back to the insert. I hope I explained that so you can understand what I'm envisioning. Any thoughts or suggestions? I think that would look a lot more realistic at 1/48 scale and just having the guns effectively hanging out of the glazing. Thanks, Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 In all honesty, I would wait out on acting until Karl is back online (closer to the weekend) - He is without doubt the know-it-all (meant in a good way) with the Belle... (not to take away from anyone else... its just that Karl got to see her in the 70's as she was, before any restoration - he'd be the one to ask for advice on this). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Maybe this will help? http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/me...F-1234P-003.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 Thanks, Kostucha. Great picture. I went to the site and save it to my favorites so I can look at it later when I have more time. I'm stuck right now waiting for more after market to come in, so I'll be starting on the Academy 1/72 Belle, hopefully tonight. I'm not planning on detailing it up as much as the Revell kit since you won't be able to see as much of the interior as on the bigger model. I still want to get the interior paint scheme right though and the information you guys have given me has been priceless. Everybody who has posted has been really helpful and I don't want to slight anybody, but Karl's knowledge of what she looked like before any restoration work just can't be beat. I'll post some photos of the Academy Belle as soon as I get some progress made on her. One really dumb newby question. What color should the part of the engines interior to the cylinders be painted. I was going to do the cylinders in "steel" then do an oil paint/turp wash to weather it, but from all the photos I've seen steel is not the correct color for that central part of the engines. Thanks in advance, guys. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kostucha Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 2 Belles... again, I can't wait! As for the engine colour, it is sometimes hard to determine as various engines show different colours. What I've done here is used the links from the pics posted on my LMM research thread from myself or other members showing these engines right out the crates. Hopefully this offers some accurate information: From Steve: From Karl: With these, and the pictures from the previous link, I hope that this helps. If not, yell at me a little, and we'll see what we can come up with. Cheers, Mark. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B-17 guy Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 From everything I've seen and learned on this subject, you can go either way. I usually paint the cylinders black and the crank cases a darker gray color. I've seen the cylenders painted steel then had a heavy black wash put on them to tone down the steel and put black in between the fins of the cylinders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shawn M Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I usually paint mine as follows: Grey crank case Alum heads Black cylinders lotsa wash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robtmelvin Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Thanks as always, guys. Love the photos, Kostucha. B-17 guy, that's about what I have in mind, crank cases a darker grey, steel or aluminium for the cylinders and heads, lots of black wash to blacken the spaces between the cooling fins and dirty up the engines. Got my Quickboost engines and cowlings for the Revell kit and they look great. A little detailing to add some wiring and such and they should look pretty good. I'm on hold now with the Revell kit until the True Details interior kits sets get here. In the meantime I've started on the Academy kit and I'll try to post some pictures in the morning. Nothing major yet, just a little preliminary painting and starting to get the cockpit ready to assemble. I'm planning to do the Academy kit more OOB than the Revell, since in 1/72 it will be hard to see anything on the interior except the nose section and maybe a bit around the waist gun positions. But, even that's subject to change as I go along. Thanks to you guys I'm really learning a lot about the Belle and B-17s in general. For me, that's a big part of the fun of modeling, learning more about the historical planes themselves and the men who flew them. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve N Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Here's an example of my technique. This is actually a resin copy of the engine from the Hasegawa SBD Dauntless that I made for the Academy B-17C I've been tinkering with for..like..ever (the Academy kit engine is on the left..I think they look pretty crude, hence my homemade resin replacements.) Anyway, I sprayed it silver, then painted the gearbox and oil sump gray. I gave the whole thing a heavy black wash, then drybrushed the gray parts wit a lighter shade, and painted the pushrods and rocker box covers black (I've seen many modelers paint the pushrods silver, but those are mostly seen on postwar restorations. On most wartime radials they were black.) Working in 1/72, I don't bother with spark plug wires, although in this case I did add the prominent ignition harness ring around the gearbox with bits of lead wire. SN Edited February 18, 2011 by Steve N Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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