Dana F Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Building the Academy kit as a Desert Storm bird. I'm actually picking it up again after a few years. It appears as though I had planned to put rocket pods on the inner pylons and Hellfires on one outer and TOWs on the other outer pylon. Did I dream this up? Or is this an accurate loadout? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
leatherneck224 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Building the Academy kit as a Desert Storm bird.I'm actually picking it up again after a few years. It appears as though I had planned to put rocket pods on the inner pylons and Hellfires on one outer and TOWs on the other outer pylon. Did I dream this up? Or is this an accurate loadout? that is pretty much standard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 You were definitely not dreaming. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dana F Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Awesome! Thank you, gentlemen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I'm surprised the Marines use both (do they still today or have they phased out the TOW completely?). Seems like the TOW doesn't offer much against the Hellfire, unless this is back in the day when the Hellfire only had an anti-armor warhead and they needed a weapon more suitable for softer targets / buildings. Nowadays there are a wide variety of Hellfire warheads to choose from. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatguy96 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I would imagine that its a matter of cost and necessary capability. TOW missiles can only cost less than HELLFIREs. For the hard targets involved, such as bunkers or rock outcroppings, they both provide the same degree of effectiveness I would think. Better to burn older TOW missiles than newer HELLFIREs. The HELLFIREs that are carried probably are of the more interesting warhead types for other situations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spongebob Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 It's based on flight profiles....TOW guides straight to where it's aimed. Which is fantastic for windows, doors, pillbox slits, etc. After launch, a Hellfire pitches up and climbs (I forget how high), then noses so it hits a tank from above since the armor is thinner on the top allong with it being a more efficient flight profile (it coasts downhill). This is great for tanks, cars, bunkers...but not so good when trying to toss the missle through a window. HTH Spongebob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 It's based on flight profiles....TOW guides straight to where it's aimed. Which is fantastic for windows, doors, pillbox slits, etc. After launch, a Hellfire pitches up and climbs (I forget how high), then noses so it hits a tank from above since the armor is thinner on the top allong with it being a more efficient flight profile (it coasts downhill). This is great for tanks, cars, bunkers...but not so good when trying to toss the missle through a window.HTH Spongebob I though the hellfire had a second profile that was flat? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I though the hellfire had a second profile that was flat? As explained the TOW is a flatter tragectory. The other reason is the TOW is significantly cheaper for some targets than a Hellfire is. There are a couple of flight profiles for the Hellfire, Lock on Before Launch (LOBL) and Lock on After Launch (LOAL). It determines the flight profile. I believe there is a direct mode but it isn't as straight as it sounds. Jon, may be able to add to that. My information is dated and subject to my mind. Basically the Hellfire launches and climbs at an angle that is determined by the limit of the seeker. Up until the missile reaches the limit and then rides the beam down to target. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 As explained the TOW is a flatter tragectory. The other reason is the TOW is significantly cheaper for some targets than a Hellfire is.There are a couple of flight profiles for the Hellfire, Lock on Before Launch (LOBL) and Lock on After Launch (LOAL). It determines the flight profile. I believe there is a direct mode but it isn't as straight as it sounds. Jon, may be able to add to that. My information is dated and subject to my mind. Basically the Hellfire launches and climbs at an angle that is determined by the limit of the seeker. Up until the missile reaches the limit and then rides the beam down to target. Floyd Ah.... My info on the Hellfire was limited to many hours playing the most-awesome Janes Longbow 2 flight sim, which actually simulated both modes and seemed to have a pretty good level of detail. Used to love plinking T-80's from miles off using Hellfires and using the chain gun on all those pesky BMP's. I guess that makes me an expert - right? :lol: I wonder if the Army made a mistake by not spec'ing out the TOW for use on Apaches, however, I am guessing it would have been pretty involved to modify the TADS site for the TOW. Thanks for the info Floyd. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Ah.... My info on the Hellfire was limited to many hours playing the most-awesome Janes Longbow 2 flight sim, which actually simulated both modes and seemed to have a pretty good level of detail. Used to love plinking T-80's from miles off using Hellfires and using the chain gun on all those pesky BMP's. I guess that makes me an expert - right? :blink: I wonder if the Army made a mistake by not spec'ing out the TOW for use on Apaches, however, I am guessing it would have been pretty involved to modify the TADS site for the TOW. Thanks for the info Floyd. John, I wonder if the Army had knwn where the threats were going to ultimately come from (i.e. small terrorist groups scattered in the desert) if they wouldn't have considered upgrading their Cobras as well or, God forbid, moving to the Whiskey. I think an Army Whiskey would be awesome! Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 John, I wonder if the Army had knwn where the threats were going to ultimately come from (i.e. small terrorist groups scattered in the desert) if they wouldn't have considered upgrading their Cobras as well or, God forbid, moving to the Whiskey. I think an Army Whiskey would be awesome! Ray Not to run this thread totally off topic but I still wonder if modified AH-1S's would have been a better scout helo over in Iraq / Afghanistan vrs the OH-58D's? Definitely would have heavier armed and armored. Not sure if it would have been possible to mount the MMS on a Cobra but it sure would have been nice to see Army Cobras flying still. The OH-58D just seems kinda frail for a combat helo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) Not to run this thread totally off topic but I still wonder if modified AH-1S's would have been a better scout helo over in Iraq / Afghanistan vrs the OH-58D's? Definitely would have heavier armed and armored. Not sure if it would have been possible to mount the MMS on a Cobra but it sure would have been nice to see Army Cobras flying still. The OH-58D just seems kinda frail for a combat helo. John, As you can see from this artwork, at some point there was a bit of an overestimation of the OH-58's ability. I believe the one in this photo is supposedly launching stingers to take out a Mi-24. I assume this is supposed to represent the Fulda Gap. I think the one in this art is an OH-58C. The OH-58D is a much more viable attack helo than the C would have been! Ray Edited March 5, 2011 by rotorwash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Not to run this thread totally off topic but I still wonder if modified AH-1S's would have been a better scout helo over in Iraq / Afghanistan vrs the OH-58D's? Definitely would have heavier armed and armored. Not sure if it would have been possible to mount the MMS on a Cobra but it sure would have been nice to see Army Cobras flying still. The OH-58D just seems kinda frail for a combat helo. No while I love the AH-1F it was terrible high and hot. It needed more power or a better driivetrain to handle maneuvering at altitide. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 No while I love the AH-1F it was terrible high and hot. It needed more power or a better driivetrain to handle maneuvering at altitide.Floyd I'm sure your correct. Supposedly the OH-58D is a bit lacking in that dept as well and at best, that helo just carries a .50 cal and a single hellfire or a 7 -shot rocket pod. I wonder what a re-engined AH-1S equipped with modern comm gear and an MMS would cost vrs an OH-58D? Guess it's all a moot point but it would make for a nice "What-If" project. Ray - that picture you posted does show an OH-58C and I believe that they actually were equipped with Stingers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Ray - that picture you posted does show an OH-58C and I believe that they actually were equipped with Stingers. John, No doubt the OH-58C was equipped with stingers (I'll have to post some pics in the flight test thread). My point was, I personally wouldn't want to face off with a Mi-24 in an OH-58C! No matter what it was armed with. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 John, No doubt the OH-58C was equipped with stingers (I'll have to post some pics in the flight test thread). My point was, I personally wouldn't want to face off with a Mi-24 in an OH-58C! No matter what it was armed with. Ray During Desert Storm my scout had stingers on it. Just in case.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joseph Osborn Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 If I may nudge this bull back onto course for a moment, I'd like to add that the AH-1W normally carried the TOW on the left-hand wing, because, according to Randy Smith, the trailing wire from the missile was more prone to foul up in the tail rotor when fired from the right side. You may now resume your off-topicness Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 During Desert Storm my scout had stingers on it. Just in case.. Floyd, interesting. I haven't seen very many photos of C's armed with stingers. I did find this one from the USAAM archives though from Desert Storm. Sorry for the poor quality of the image. I fear we have run this thread very far afield. Sorry about that, Dana. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Par429 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 As explained the TOW is a flatter tragectory. The other reason is the TOW is significantly cheaper for some targets than a Hellfire is.There are a couple of flight profiles for the Hellfire, Lock on Before Launch (LOBL) and Lock on After Launch (LOAL). It determines the flight profile. I believe there is a direct mode but it isn't as straight as it sounds. Jon, may be able to add to that. My information is dated and subject to my mind. Basically the Hellfire launches and climbs at an angle that is determined by the limit of the seeker. Up until the missile reaches the limit and then rides the beam down to target. Floyd Hey- There actually is a software load for Hellfire to fly a flat trajectory without the top down attack. More info: http://www.navair.navy.mil/newsreleases/in...iew&id=3486 Phil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
otis252 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 What we need for these 1/35 AH-1W loadouts is a wing mounted fuel tank. Floyd, hint, hint, hint.... Chuck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 What we need for these 1/35 AH-1W loadouts is a wing mounted fuel tank. Floyd, hint, hint, hint....Chuck First off I think we would need a better canopy (hint, hint) and better TOW launchers and Rocket Pods. Just my two cents. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
otis252 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hey Floyd, I know, you're right on the canopy. Got a question, did you ever get the demensions of that oil cooler on the bottom of the late Whiskey Cobra? You know, that big box like deal. Length and width. Got some time now. Chuck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hey Floyd,I know, you're right on the canopy. Got a question, did you ever get the demensions of that oil cooler on the bottom of the late Whiskey Cobra? You know, that big box like deal. Length and width. Got some time now. Chuck I never got it Dave Roof has it but won't share it with me, or at least that is the way it seems. You might do better by contacting him directly. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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