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Would anyone be interested...


muscle car group build  

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  1. 1. would you consider it?

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    • maybe
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    • are you crazy?
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A more comprehensive list including some foreign ones as well.

ModelsUnited StatesMotor Trend identified the following models as "musclecars" in 1965:

1962–1965 Dodge Dart 413/426 Max Wedge/426 Hemi/Plymouth Fury 413/426 Max Wedge/426 Hemi

1964–1965 Ford Thunderbolt 427

1965–1969 Buick Skylark Gran Sport

1965–1970 Dodge Coronet/Plymouth Belvedere 426-S

1965 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu SS

1965–1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442

Road & Track identified the following models as "musclecars" in 1965:

1964–1965 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans/GTO

1965–1975 Buick Riviera Gran Sport

1965–1969 Buick Skylark Gran Sport

1965–1970 Dodge Coronet/Plymouth Belvedere 426-S

1965 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu SS

1965–1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442

Car and Driver also created a list of the 10 Best muscle cars for its January 1990 issue. The magazine focused on the engines and included:

1966–1967 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi

1968–1969 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi

1970–1971 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi

1966–1967 Chevy II SS327

1966–1969 Chevrolet Chevelle SS396

1968–1969 Chevy II Nova SS396

1969 Ford Torino Cobra 428

1969 Plymouth Road Runner/Dodge Super Bee 440 Six Pack

1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS454

1969 Pontiac GTO

1987 Buick Grand National

Other muscle cars include the following:

Full-size muscle models

1962-1970 Buick Wildcat

1965-1974 Buick Riviera GS until 1972, then Riviera GS Stage1 models

1961-1976 Chevrolet Impala SS until '69, then any high HP-engined models

1958-1975 Chevrolet Bel Air

1958-1972 Chevrolet Biscayne

1965-1976 Chevrolet Caprice

1959-1975 Ford Galaxie

1962-1967 Mercury S-55 (1964 and 1965 badged as a Marauder)

1959-1974 Mercury Monterey

1960-1973 Dodge Polara

Mid-size muscle models

1970–1971 AMC Rebel and Matador The Machine[45][46]

1968–1969 Buick Gran Sport

1970–1974 Buick GSX

1965–1973 Chevrolet Chevelle SS

1966–1974 Dodge Charger

1968–1971 Dodge Super Bee

1969 Dodge Charger Daytona[47]

1966–1969 Ford Fairlane GT, GTA, and Cobra

1968–1974 Ford Torino (GT, Cobra, and Talladega)

1966-1972 Mercury Cyclone

1970-1971 Mercury Montego

1968–1971 Oldsmobile 442

1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass "Ram-Rod" 350

1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass W-31

1967–1971 Plymouth GTX

1968–1974 Plymouth Road Runner[47]

1970 Plymouth Superbird

1964–1974 Pontiac GTO

Compact muscle models

1969 AMC SC/Rambler

1971 AMC Hornet SC 360

1963–1974 Chevrolet Nova SS

1968–1976 Dodge Dart GT, GTS, Swinger, and Demon

1970–1976 Plymouth Duster

1964-1969 Ford Falcon

1970-1976 Ford Maverick Grabber

1964-1975 Mercury Comet

Pony car muscle models

1968–1970 AMC AMX

1968-1974 AMC Javelin and AMX

1967-1974 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 & SS

1970–1974 Dodge Challenger

1965-1970 Shelby Mustang GT350 & GT500

1967-1971 Mustang Cobra Jet

1969-1973 Mustang Mach 1

1969-1970 Boss 302 Mustang

1969-1970 Mustang Boss 429

1971 Mustang Boss 351

1969-1970 Mercury Cougar Eliminator

1964–1974 Plymouth Barracuda

1967-1979 Pontiac Firebird & Trans Am

Muscle trucks

1965-1987 Chevrolet El Camino SS

1967-1979 Ford Ranchero

1971-1977 GMC Sprint

1978-1987 GMC Caballero

AustraliaChrysler

VH model

1971-1972 Charger R/T E37 (101 built)

1971-1972 Charger R/T E38 - 280 bhp (210 kW) - 3 Speed Gearbox (Track pack and Big tank were options and a fully blueprinted engine) (316 built)

1972-1973 Charger R/T E48 (2 built)

1972-1973 Charger R/T E49 - 302 bhp (225 kW) - 4 Speed Gearbox (Track pack and Big tank were options and a fully blueprinted engine) (149 built)

1972-1973 Charger S/E E55 - 275 bhp (205 kW) - 727 Torqueflite Auto (340 cubic inch Chrysler LA engine) (124 built)

1969-1971 Valiant Hardtop (318 or 360ci V8s)

VJ model (R/T nomenclature dropped) were:

1973-1974 Charger E48 (169 built)

1973 Charger E49 (4 built)

1973-1974 Charger 770 E55 (212 built)

Ford

1967 XR Falcon GT (289)

1968 XT Falcon GT (302)

1969–1970 XW Falcon GT (351)

1969–1970 XW Falcon/Fairmont GS 302 and 351

1969 XW Falcon GTHO Phase I (351W)

1970 XW Falcon GTHO Phase II (351C)

1970-1971 XY Falcon/Fairmont GS 302 and 351

1970-1971 XY Falcon GT (351)

1971 XY Falcon Phase III GTHO (351)

1972 XA Falcon Phase IV GTHO 4 door (only four made: three prototypes, one production) (351)

1972–1973 XA Falcon GT hardtop coupe/4 Door Sedan (351)

1972–1973 XA Falcon GS Hardtop/Sedan/Ute (302, 351)

1973 XA Falcon Superbird (302)

1973–1976 XB Falcon GT hardtop coupe/4 Door Sedan (351)

1973–1976 XB Falcon/Fairmont GS Hardtop/Sedan/Ute (302, 351)

1974–1975 XB Falcon John Goss Special (302)

1976-1979 XC Fairmont GXL (302C or 351C as the desirable GT Power-pack Option)

1978 XC Falcon Cobra 5.8, Bathurst Homologation

1979 XD Fairmont Ghia ESP (302C, 351C)

1982-84 XE Fairmont Ghia ESP (302C, 351C)

Holden

1968–1969 HK Monaro GTS (327)

1969–1970 HT Monaro GTS (350)

1970–1971 HG Monaro GTS (350)

1971–1974 HQ Monaro GTS (350)

1974–1976 HJ Monaro GTS (308)

1970–1971 LC Torana GTR XU-1 (186)

1972–1973 LJ Torana GTR XU-1 (202)

1974–1976 LH Torana SL/R 5000 (308)

1974 LH Torana SL/R 5000 L34 (308)

1976–1978 LX Torana SL/R 5000 (308)

1976–1978 LX Torana SS (308)

1977 LX Torana SL/R 5000 A9X (308)

1977 LX Torana SS A9X (308)

Leyland

P76 "Force Seven". This was a coupe version of the Leyland P76, and the company's answer to the Holden Monaro GTS, Ford Falcon GT and Chrysler Valiant Charger. The company ran into financial difficulties and ceased Australian production before the 3 door Force Seven could be released. The eight completed examples were sold at auction.

BrazilChevrolet

1971-1975 1st generation Opala SS with engine 250 I6

1975-1979 2nd generation Opala SS with engine 250-S I6

1979-1980 3rd generation Opala SS with engine 250-S I6

1976-1979 1st generation Caravan SS

1980 2nd generation Caravan SS

Ford

1971-1975 1st generation Maverick GT 302 V8

1975-1979 2nd generation Maverick GT 302 V8

1966-1971 Galaxie 500 289 V8

1971-1980 LTD Landau 302 V8

1980-1983 Landau 302 V8

Dodge

1969-1975 Dart 318 V8

1971-1979 1st generation Charger R/T 318 V8 (1969 Dart modified sold under the name of Charger)

1980 2nd generation Charger R/T 318 V8 (1976 Dart modified sold under the name of Charger)

Puma

1975-1979 GTB S1

1980-1988 GTB S2

1988-1994 AMV

Santa-Matilde

1979-1988 SM4.1

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I'm glad to hear it. I've been slowly accumulating Model T kits over the years. Maybe I should build one.
I am by far NOT a car expert by any stretch, but a Model T for a "muscle car" group build sounds a little farcical to me...... :crying:

I would pass on this group build, I've never had the patience to get the finish on a car model to look right. I've messed up a dozen different car models over the years.

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Great idea Ryan, count me in for sure!

Steve, the closest you'll get in plastic to Aussie muscle is the previously mentioned late model Pontiac GTO ( really a Holden Monaro with the wheel on the wrong side :crying:). There have been a few resin kits of early Monaros and Toranas, but given the market theres not a huge lot to choose from :(

Denzil

Edited by DDC
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Aaaahem!!! EXCUSE ME!!! I have a problem! This is becoming a bit on the conveluded side. The Ferrari 599 GTO is a brute and a very beautiful car but NOT a muscle car. It is a nearly all carbon-fiber monster with a monster price tag. Calling ANY Ferrari a muscle car is likely to cause a massive earthquake in Italy from Enzo Ferrari rolling over in his grave. I would argue that the muscle car is an American phenomena that would extend to subsidiaries of American car makers such as Holden/Ford in Australia and Vauxhall/Ford in the UK. Jaguars, Aston Martin, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche all make SPORTS cars. Exotic supercars are just that as well, not muscle cars.

Muscle cars go fast in a strait line, sports cars are made for going fast in the twisties. There is a difference. Please pardon my hair splitting here but I feel a distinction has to be made or this will not really be a muscle car build after all.

BTW, I agree with the definition that was previously posted from Wikipedia. The criteria are pretty distinct, including the stipulation about muscle cars being a strictly 2 DOOR thing, 4 door sedans aren't muscle cars either. This would exclude the new Dodge Charger which is marketed as a muscle car but is actually an up-gunned luxury sedan chassis ( Chrysler 300). This would also exclude the Pontiac G8 and Holden V8 Commodore. All clearly aimed at the muscle car market but not within the definition of the genre.

Edited by Expat Tomcat
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Aaaahem!!! EXCUSE ME!!! I have a problem! This is becoming a bit on the conveluded side. The Ferrari 599 GTO is a brute and a very beautiful car but NOT a muscle car. It is a nearly all carbon-fiber monster with a monster price tag. Calling ANY Ferrari a muscle car is likely to cause a massive earthquake in Italy from Enzo Ferrari rolling over in his grave. I would argue that the muscle car is an American phenomena that would extend to subsidiaries of American car makers such as Holden/Ford in Australia and Vauxhall/Ford in the UK. Jaguars, Aston Martin, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche all make SPORTS cars. Exotic supercars are just that as well, not muscle cars.

Muscle cars go fast in a strait line, sports cars are made for going fast in the twisties. There is a difference. Please pardon my hair splitting here but I feel a distinction has to be made or this will not really be a muscle car build after all.

BTW, I agree with the definition that was previously posted from Wikipedia. The criteria are pretty distinct, including the stipulation about muscle cars being a strictly 2 DOOR thing, 4 door sedans aren't muscle cars either. This would exclude the new Dodge Charger which is marketed as a muscle car but is actually an up-gunned luxury sedan chassis ( Chrysler 300). This would also exclude the Pontiac G8 and Holden V8 Commodore. All clearly aimed at the muscle car market but not within the definition of the genre.

I guess i'm old school. Muscle car to me is defined almost exactly how Wikipedia does. I couldn't say it any better than Expat Tomcat does. As for the Australian cars, it sounds like lack of kits is the deciding factor.

Don

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May 1st sounds like a good start date, running how long ? 6 months? I'm definately on board. Are we set about what really constitutes a "Muscle car"? Do there need to be any other ground rules?

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Wouldn't those be "supercars"?

RYAN.

The term supercar has been coined by many. Even with drag racing the term supercar has been used.

Heck even cars used purposely for development/entering nascar like the Dodge Charger Daytona have been coined as supercars.

The term Exotic pretty much means expensive, no matter what it is, and to me "Exotic" means anything out of my price range or more then I am willing to pay for it.

A $20,000 can be seen as Exotic yet, a $20,000 car to many is not.

Which ever way one wants this to go is find by me.

What I have to say below is only my opinion on the discussion as a enthusiast, so take it as one will.

Aaaahem!!! EXCUSE ME!!! I have a problem! This is becoming a bit on the conveluded side.

The Ferrari 599 GTO is a brute and a very beautiful car but NOT a muscle car. It is a nearly all carbon-fiber monster with a monster price tag. Calling ANY Ferrari a muscle car is likely to cause a massive earthquake in Italy from Enzo Ferrari rolling over in his grave. I would argue that the muscle car is an American phenomena that would extend to subsidiaries of American car makers such as Holden/Ford in Australia and Vauxhall/Ford in the UK. Jaguars, Aston Martin, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche all make SPORTS cars. Exotic supercars are just that as well, not muscle cars.

Tomcat, the cars I mentioned are muscle cars, their true purpose is the same with others like them no matter who or where they were built. Sports car pretty much means a "sporty car". In the case of the cars I mention and their American brothers.

They are GTO/GT sports cars. The first muscle car as most people might think on here from the sound of it, might be the Pontiac "GTO" AKA Gran Turismo Omologato, Which means "agreed to be Grand Touring".

Pontiac picked that Label along with Le Mans for a reason. Now, to me and a lot of other car enthusiast we do not even agree that the GTO was the first "Muslcle Car" To many of us, the first possible ones were built in the 50s, cars like the OLD 88 rocket and the Cadillacs. Bringing up the name Cadillac here brings up other subjective material by some. There is a car coined the first "pony car" Heck its name is what made the term, even tho it was not the first pony car. We know this car by the name "Mustang" it got it's name from the "Cadillac of the sky" the P-51 Mustang not the horse.

Muscle cars go fast in a strait line, sports cars are made for going fast in the twisties. There is a difference. Please pardon my hair splitting here but I feel a distinction has to be made or this will not really be a muscle car build after all.
Again the cars of the times this stuff came about, were thought of to be sporty cars, not sports cars. Back then in racing, sports cars were thought to have no roof/top, cars with a top were called GT/GTO's. There are some companies that loved to "coin" their cars has hard top convertibles, no center post.

A few more words of the same era SS "Super Sport" RS "Rally Sport" LS "Luxury Sport". Do we know of any Muscle cars with such names?

BTW, I agree with the definition that was previously posted from Wikipedia. The criteria are pretty distinct, including the stipulation about muscle cars being a strictly 2 DOOR thing, 4 door sedans aren't muscle cars either. This would exclude the new Dodge Charger which is marketed as a muscle car but is actually an up-gunned luxury sedan chassis ( Chrysler 300). This would also exclude the Pontiac G8 and Holden V8 Commodore. All clearly aimed at the muscle car market but not within the definition of the genre.
They are not plain jane luxury sedans, cars like them and other expensive Muscle cars are pretty much known as DR cars rich boys muscle car with all the bells and whistles, there are a few Muscle cars even by your terms that fit the bill, Cars made by Oldsmobile and the like by GM, Same goes for the higher end Hemi cars of the past, some of these mind you cost more then Ferrari's and Porsche's of the same time.

I also do not think Enzo would roll in his grave over calling a muscle car specially since they made cars like the Ferrari 365 GT4 plus their 4 door cars.

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WayneS, were dealing with specific definitions as to what defines certain genres of automobile,so rather than argue with you I will provide you not one, but two definitions of the term. One of which was provided by a man who LITERALLY wrote the book on Muscle cars.

Definition one is the Wikipedia definition previously provided in a link, which has its roots in the Webster Dictionary.

"Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster definition is more limiting, "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] The term generally refers to 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars, and sometimes full-size cars equipped with large, powerful, V8s, and sold at an affordable price for street use and both formal and informal drag racing.[3][4][5][6]

As such, they are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing.

Building on the American phenomenon and developing simultaneously in their own markets, muscle cars also emerged in their own fashions in Australia, South Africa, the UK, and elsewhere."

Definition 2 also provided by Wikipedia, but reitterates what i said about fast in a straight line.

"According to the June 1967 issue of Road Test magazine, a "muscle car" is "Exactly what the name implies. It is a product of the American car industry adhering to the hot rodder's philosophy of taking a small car and putting a BIG engine in it. The Muscle Car is Charles Atlas kicking sand in the face of the 98 hp (73 kW) weakling."[7] Author of the book Muscle Cars the quote is drawn from, Peter Henshaw, furthers that the muscle car was designed for straight-line speed, and did not have the "sophisticated chassis", "engineering integrity" or "lithe appearance" of European high-performance cars."

So those much wiser than I disagree with you.

I'd say all four of your cars qualify outside the definition BECAUSE they are so sophisticated. Ferrari, Aston Martin, Jaguar, and MB all spend MILLIONS to get their cars to handle well. As an example, even in its most sophisticated modern guise, the Pontiac GTO handles like a truck. If you want it to handle AND go fast you have to spend about $5K on a new Pedder's performance suspension. ALL Muscle cars handle like crap, because the money is under the hood, not in the fenderwells. The 1964 1/2 Mustang was designed on a Ford Falcon frame, hardly a car known for its handling.

I"m quite aware of the roots, meaning and correct Italian pronunciation of Gran Tourismo Omolagato. This was the first car to bear the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1962_Fer...50_GTO_34_2.jpg

It is a legend and most definately NOT a muscle car, its a racing car. It cost $18,000 new in 1962 ( an absolute fortune in 1962 dollars) and to own one in the U.S. you had to be personally selected by Enzo Ferrari or his American marketing agent Luigi Chinetta. Not your average working man's fare, thats what the muscle car did was make speed available to the peasantry. The name GTO has only been given to 3 cars in Ferrari's history, 2 of the 3 were purpose built racing cars. The OTHER is the 599 GTO, another thing Enzo would roll over about, a ROAD car with a GTO badge. He LOATHED selling road cars AT ALL, and only did it to finance his racing team. BTW, to Enzo Ferrari the 365 GT4 was a particular abomination, a Ferrari 4 DOOR ROAD CAR? He agreed because in America, it would SELL and he had the likes of Tyrell and Lotus to beat at the time. It was a means to an end, thats all.

I know all about the Pontiac GTO too, I own one.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z142/ex...0/GTOpics07.jpg

It's fast, and handles like a barge, an unpredictable barge in a power drift. Thats because the suspension was designed for an Australian car half the weight of the Holden Manaro/ Pontiac GTO. And comparatively to all of your choices, that "Stang" in your avatar handles like a barge too. You see we provincial Americans have yet to build a car that can really keep paces with the European exotics in the twisties. A FIAT 500 Abarth ( smaller than a Mini )handles better than 95% of American cars ever made. The NEWEST ZR1 and Z06 Corvettes being the only real contender to even challenge any of the previously mentioned sports cars, which makes the Vette a sports car too. It handles and its fast= sports car.

Ok last definition

"A sports car is a small, usually two seat automobile designed for high speed driving and maneuverability.[1]

Sports cars have been either spartan or luxurious, but good handling and high performance is requisite."

the defense rests!

Edited by Expat Tomcat
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What about making the rules:

'WHAT IS YOUR IDEA OF A MUSCLE CAR'

Too many rules and stipulations and people aren't going to be bothered.

My 2 cents

Denzil

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