toadwbg Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 My point isn't that Rustbeltia has an even sobbier story than the South. Not at all. It's that everybody has it rough in a changing economy without substantial industrial planning. Take a number and get in line, brother. Well put. We can't still be placing blame upon a war or "Northern aggression" from 150 years ago. Time to stop being a victim and move on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 What I said above is plain enough, the gripe is encroachment and disrespect to southern society. I'm not really sure that viewpoint is represented by anything more than a very, very small percentage of the southern population. I don't think that "southern society" is as homogenous as you may think it is. From the time I have spent living and working down there, I would submit that many of the people who live in the region would highly resent being labeled as a "southern gentleman" and have no love for anything connected with the old south / confederacy. And not all of the people "encroaching" into your region are Yankees coming down with all their money, jacking up real estate prices and diluting your precious culture. Regardless, I hope that one day all of those different, disrespectful people will leave so you will have your southern utopia restored. Good luck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skyraider Maniac Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 My point isn't that Rustbeltia has an even sobbier story than the South. Not at all. It's that everybody has it rough in a changing economy without substantial industrial planning. Take a number and get in line, brother. I don't disagree with you there. My point has nothing to deal with the politics of one region verses another; or of "who has it worse." it's has nothing to deal with the cotton crop agriculture lifestyle or anything of the sort. It merely has to do with this: roadrunner brought up a point that there are folks down south that still harbor disdain for yankees, I'm merely trying to explain why. His calling them ignorant is a big part of why southerners dislike the folks from the north; the preconception of the yankee that "Johnny reb" is an ignorant hick. My experiences mentioned are simply that - experiences. I'm not attacking financial institutions for the sake of an argument. I'm not talking about them at all. I am talking about my dealings with Yankee bankers who moved to Charlotte cause it's a big banking town. No problem there, except they're very prejudiced when it comes to dealing with local (I.e southern) landscapers. I'm not dealing with an institution, I'm talking about individuals and their thought processes. And it's not just at work, it's at the mall, on the radio, different restaurants, ect... Where this attitude is being exhibited. It has nothing to do with politics, financial hardship or industry; but everything to do with the person and the attitude. The mindset of the Yankee towards the southerner has always had this bias even before the war of southern independence. The reasons change with the times, but the root of the matter stays the same. Until these social issues can be done away with, there will always be animosity harbored by the south towards the north. And mind you, as I stated in my first post, I'm not grouping all yanks in the same category. There are those who don't act like jerks and mind their own business. As for those who say that these "radical ignoramouses" ought to let go - that's the equivalent to saying " alright you southern dumb***es; quit being stupid and move on already" - all the while the dealings and mindset of the antagonist hasn't changed. It won't work, so quit trying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HOLMES Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Respects to all involved. AMEN !!! :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skyraider Maniac Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 I'm not really sure that viewpoint is represented by anything more than a very, very small percentage of the southern population. I don't think that "southern society" is as homogenous as you may think it is. From the time I have spent living and working down there, I would submit that many of the people who live in the region would highly resent being labeled as a "southern gentleman" and have no love for anything connected with the old south / confederacy. And not all of the people "encroaching" into your region are Yankees coming down with all their money, jacking up real estate prices and diluting your precious culture. Regardless, I hope that one day all of those different, disrespectful people will leave so you will have your southern utopia restored. Good luck. Thanks for your insight of Yankee know-how in the realm of southern culture. Your lack of understanding of the subject, and the assumption of holding onto old things is a clear picture of your apparent ignorance. Your lack of understanding of what it is to be a southern gentleman, and the importance of it only shows your true ignorance on the subject. Your arrogance is not surprising, but it is sad. Is that what they taught you in public school? That everything the loyal southerner holds dear all goes back to a war that was anything but civil? You blame past tidings, I cite current issues; but all in all it's labeled as holding on to a nonexistent, dream-world past. Obviously you learned nothing of your time down in Dixie. I have nothing more to say to you on the issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SBARC Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 After reading this thread......I find myself wondering......if the American Civil War really did end? Canada had a civil war........lasted one afternoon....Battle of the Plains of Abraham.....British won...French lost and now the French speaking province of Quebec dictates to the rest of Canada what they want. That's how Canada does things. :) I recall a story I heard on the radio about 10 years ago about Southerners that were taking night clases to be able to drop their Southern accent and adopt a Northern accent as they found their Southern accent was holding them back in their careers. And that right there is simply not right and quite sad in so many ways. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 After reading this thread......I find myself wondering......if the American Civil War really did end? :) Steve, For some people, it obviously didn't end. The funny thing is, I look on my birth certficate, passport, etc... and I can't find the place where I'm listed as a "Yankee," or a "Southern Gentlemen," or an "Easterner," or a "West Coaster." My official documents just seem to identify me an an American. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fishwelding Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Honestly, I don't see exceptional prejudice against people from the South in the Northern United States. After all, Paula Dean was a national, not a regional sensation. Country music is as alive in the North as anywhere else. Indeed, my Civil War-enthusiast friends are as enthusiastic about telling me the exploits of Lafayette McClaws, or Jubal Early, as any Yankee they also pontificate about. Plenty of people up here hold Thomas Jefferson in high regard and I myself think James Madison is sadly underrated. Are there "Yankees" who sneer at Southern culture? Sure, but as we've seen here, it clearly works both ways. And I hear plenty of talk among local friends also about "Crazyfornia," and snickers about Midwesterners as well. If you want to really see what a Pittsburgher, for example, holds a prejudice toward, mention Cleveland. I'm sure in Cleveland the feeling is mutual. Philadelphians and New Yorkers delight in jabbing New Jersey...well, just about everyone takes shots at New Jersey, now that I think about it. The Civil War is over because between our time and theirs is lots of social and political history that means any grudge between north and south is at best a revival, or more probably a new invention, not a continuous thread. After all, we've had plenty of presidents, vice presidents, congressional and judicial leaders from the former Confederacy, from both parties. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SBARC Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Steve, For some people, it obviously didn't end. The funny thing is, I look on my birth certficate, passport, etc... and I can't find the place where I'm listed as a "Yankee," or a "Southern Gentlemen," or an "Easterner," or a "West Coaster." My official documents just seem to identify me an an American. Regards, Murph My sister is researching our family history online......she sent me an e-mail the other day........she received an e-mail from a guy in Tennessee and it appears he had the same great great great grand mother as us......and what was his name?.......Tom Murphy. It's a small world and it appears I have distant relatives in Tennessee. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fishwelding Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) And I'd add that American sports fans, and particularly tackle football fans, are some of the tamest in the world. That sounds funny, but seeing how Soccer (football, to the rest of the world) has produced legendary riots and violence, we Americans can be surprisingly mild. I have a theory about that, too. ( .) American football, despite the stereotypes, is insanely sophisticated. There's a reason that a coaching staff, even for a college ball team, is like a general staff in the Von Moltke tradition. When you have plays that are only several seconds long, and this shifting "front" in the line of scrimmage, you create an entirely new dimension of planning, expertise, specializations, management levels, and coordination than in any other team sport. It's like a full-scale Napoleonic battle every Sunday afternoon or Monday night. Honestly, just to follow what's taking place on the field, and then think about it afterwards, is too much exhausting brain work to then start a riot. When I hear the heavily-educated sneer at the common folk of society, I use that as an example to bring their egos down a bit. When I was a kid, my dad listened to sports radio while taking me on Saturday trips to the hardware store for this-or-that lawnmower part or home-repair item. I've heard beer-drinking blue collar guys call into such shows and deliver the most arcane and scholarly dissertations on tackle football that would blow the doors off any Ivy League dissertation on economic history or political theory. It's not about IQ; it's about knowing what you love. Edited April 13, 2011 by Fishwelding Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mandie Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Ok guys, let me introduce myself. I am a southern belle from the heart of Dixie, also known as Southern Alabama, born and raised. I have lived in Indiana and Michigan for the last 10 years, and I've met just as many ignorant, rednecks in Indiana and Michigan. Guys, get a life, the civil war is over and has been for well over a hundred years, so move on. This thread was started by a well meaning guy who just wanted to point out the anniversary of a major event in our countries history. It doesn't matter where you are from, how you speak, we are one nation. I am married to a gentlemen from Michigan who is as much a gentlemen as any guy I grew up with. I raised 3 children who are from Indiana, and was married to their dad who is from Indiana. Our only differences are I have an accent, which most people enjoy listening to, and I of course love my grits and greens. So people grow the hell up. Thank you!!! Mandie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SBARC Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Ok guys, let me introduce myself. I am a southern belle from the heart of Dixie, also known as Southern Alabama, born and raised. I have lived in Indiana and Michigan for the last 10 years, and I've met just as many ignorant, rednecks in Indiana and Michigan. Guys, get a life, the civil war is over and has been for well over a hundred years, so move on. This thread was started by a well meaning guy who just wanted to point out the anniversary of a major event in our countries history. It doesn't matter where you are from, how you speak, we are one nation. I am married to a gentlemen from Michigan who is as much a gentlemen as any guy I grew up with. I raised 3 children who are from Indiana, and was married to their dad who is from Indiana. Our only differences are I have an accent, which most people enjoy listening to, and I of course love my grits and greens. So people grow the hell up. Thank you!!! Mandie You tell 'em Mandie. :lol: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve N Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 She still hasn't gotten me to eat grits or turnip greens yet... SN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fishwelding Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 (edited) Hey, British ARCers, do you still get contentious over your Civil Wars? Hmm...well, it seems like most of you aren't very impressed with your Royals these days, judging from comments I've read here on these very threads. And none of you strike me as very Puritan, either. I know there are many English Civil War enthusiasts in Britain, including reenactors, but I honestly wondered if any get into arguments over which side was right or wrong. How about other wars? Any "Norman vs. Saxon" fights in Pubs? Or Lancaster or York adherents? I have seen some Scots, at least partly in jest, comment on the Stuarts, the '45 and so forth, on modeling forums. Fun fact: some Puritans in New England actually went home to fight in the Civil War. But many English Puritans were somewhat skeptical of the whole colonization project in New England (the "Errand in the Wilderness"), and I believe even Cromwell wrote them off as essentially "useless." Another stereotype of Yankees, derived from an oft-repeated and oft-paraphrased joke: continually afraid, offended, and appalled at the thought that someone else, somewhere, might be happy. Even in Pennsylvania, we do seem to be a gloomy lot. It's the weather. Miserable winter, rainy, rainy Spring, comically humid summer, and then a few days of genuinely brilliant autumn when the leaves are beautiful and the apples are glorious. Then back to slush and road salt. Edited April 14, 2011 by Fishwelding Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Even in Pennsylvania, we do seem to be a gloomy lot. It's the weather. Miserable winter, rainy, rainy Spring, comically humid summer, and then a few days of genuinely brilliant autumn when the leaves are beautiful and the apples are glorious. Then back to slush and road salt. And football. Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fishwelding Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 And football.Regards, Murph No kidding. Roman Catholic masses in Western Pennsylvania are timed around football games. The assumption is that while God is most important, God himself isn't about to miss any of the first quarter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flying Penguin Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 (edited) Hey, British ARCers, do you still get contentious over your Civil Wars? Hmm...well, it seems like most of you aren't very impressed with your Royals these days, judging from comments I've read here on these very threads. And none of you strike me as very Puritan, either. I know there are many English Civil War enthusiasts in Britain, including reenactors, but I honestly wondered if any get into arguments over which side was right or wrong. How about other wars? Any "Norman vs. Saxon" fights in Pubs? Or Lancaster or York adherents? I have seen some Scots, at least partly in jest, comment on the Stuarts, the '45 and so forth, on modeling forums. In short, not in the slightest. As Edgar put it in another thread, we kicked the monarchy out, had a republic, decided it was a bit poo really and brought back the monarchy. Aside from a few nuts, the most vicious it ever gets is a quiet discussion with tea and cucumber sandwiches! In fact the only thing of that nature we ever seem to get into arguments about was the English-Scottish union, which wasn't actually achieved by force but by quirk of Royal lineage (1603) and legal Act of Union (1707). Just don't mention Culloden... Jamie Edited April 14, 2011 by Flying Penguin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fishwelding Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 (edited) Just don't mention Culloden... Jamie Well, there is the whole invasion and occupation of Wales, in the...1200s? I just remember all those expensive castles the English built... ...that are awesome! I've never seen them personally, but from stuff I've read they really are the classic "medieval castle" that you want in a movie. But then again, the English thereafter didn't seem to have trouble recruiting the Welsh to fight their wars, so the hard feelings must not have been long-lasting. ...and as I think on it, I can see why your "interregnum" republic wasn't so cool. When the government makes playing cards, dice, and probably even dancing a no-no, that really does harsh one's mellow. Then even a monarch with absolutist ambitions is tolerable, provided he smiles occasionally. Edited April 14, 2011 by Fishwelding Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flying Penguin Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 (edited) Well, there is the whole invasion and occupation of Wales, in the...1200s? I just remember all those expensive castles the English built......that are awesome! I've never seen them personally, but from stuff I've read they really are the classic "medieval castle" that you want in a movie. But then again, the English thereafter didn't seem to have trouble recruiting the Welsh to fight their wars, so the hard feelings must not have been long-lasting. Technically that was the Normans, starting in 1067 who had just (1066) come over from France and conquered what is now England, and was in response to attacks from the Welsh which had started just before the Normans arrived. Admittedly they worked on longer timescales back then so it wasn't really settled until about 1163ish, So really it was a continuation of the Norman invasion of England, rather than an English invasion of Wales... But no, it's not something that there are many open wounds over in all but in the minds of the most ardent Welsh nationalists. As a kid I did a long weekend in Wales visiting all the main ones on the north coast, absolute beauties.... Jamie Edited April 14, 2011 by Flying Penguin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big Texan Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 No kidding. Roman Catholic masses in Western Pennsylvania are timed around football games. The assumption is that while God is most important, God himself isn't about to miss any of the first quarter. Funny you mention this, churches out here in Amarillo usually have 2 services on Sunday morning, 8 or 8:30 and 11 or 11:30. Now, during football season, most folks go to the early service to be home to catch the pre-game show and the first game. Post season, they all go to the late services! We're in the central time zone out here, and this works for most folks. I also find it funny here in Amarillo, half the town cheers for the Cowboys, and the other half for the Broncos. We're 5 1/2 hours from Dallas and about 8 hours from Denver. Me, I'm a transplant from Maryland, I go for the Ravens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big Texan Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Technically that was the Normans, starting in 1067 who had just (1066) come over from France and conquered what is now England, and was in response to attacks from the Welsh which had started just before the Normans arrived. Admittedly they worked on longer timescales back then so it wasn't really settled until about 1163ish, So really it was a continuation of the Norman invasion of England, rather than an English invasion of Wales...But no, it's not something that there are many open wounds over in all but in the minds of the most ardent Welsh nationalists. As a kid I did a long weekend in Wales visiting all the main ones on the north coast, absolute beauties.... Jamie Man, that is one beautiful castle. It looks very similar in design and materials to one I saw in Spain while I was there! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pastafarian Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Honestly, I don't see exceptional prejudice against people from the South in the Northern United States. After all, Paula Dean was a national, not a regional sensation. Country music is as alive in the North as anywhere else. It doesn't seem to me that as much interest in the North focuses on the Civil War, it's more about the Revolution up there. I think the interest lies more with where the battlefields were located. I remember looking for advisors when I started grad school and I had a hard time finding very many Civil War/Southern historians up North. One of the funniest things about current thoughts on that war that I've seen is when I used to work up on a very rural mountain in Middle Tennessee. During the war, the folks up there voted against secession (it is extremely rocky up there, not suited to plantations, and those folks didn't own many slaves at all). Yet, during a 4th of July Parade in 2000, I saw wayyyyy more Confederate battle flags flying than American Flags. Very Unionist during the war, but now those folks like to cite their Confederate past. LOL John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pastafarian Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Funny you mention this, churches out here in Amarillo usually have 2 services on Sunday morning, 8 or 8:30 and 11 or 11:30. Now, during football season, most folks go to the early service to be home to catch the pre-game show and the first game. Post season, they all go to the late services! We're in the central time zone out here, and this works for most folks. I also find it funny here in Amarillo, half the town cheers for the Cowboys, and the other half for the Broncos. We're 5 1/2 hours from Dallas and about 8 hours from Denver. Me, I'm a transplant from Maryland, I go for the Ravens. Lots of people go for Dallas down here in Lubbock. I've never really thought about the 2 different services down here. I always thought it was just about the folks that sleep in on Sunday. hahha I'm just happy that Lubbock FINALLY legalized alcohol sales inside the city a couple years ago. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fishwelding Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 (edited) It doesn't seem to me that as much interest in the North focuses on the Civil War, it's more about the Revolution up there. I think the interest lies more with where the battlefields were located. I remember looking for advisors when I started grad school and I had a hard time finding very many Civil War/Southern historians up North. One of the funniest things about current thoughts on that war that I've seen is when I used to work up on a very rural mountain in Middle Tennessee. During the war, the folks up there voted against secession (it is extremely rocky up there, not suited to plantations, and those folks didn't own many slaves at all). Yet, during a 4th of July Parade in 2000, I saw wayyyyy more Confederate battle flags flying than American Flags. Very Unionist during the war, but now those folks like to cite their Confederate past. LOL John West Virginia is a bit like this, too. If I recall, I think Appalachia wasn't exactly the strongest hotbeds of secessionism, but now West Virginia seems to have as many Southern enthusiasts as Northern. With regard to historical interest in the North, yes it's probably true that our regional focus is less on the Civil War, and the South. That's logical. Regional history tends to color a university history department to some degree. The battlefields are generally in the South, and I would argue that the implications of the war have been a stronger subject of social and political debate in the South. My graduate department at a Pennsylvania school tended to focus in mid-Atlantic studies. Hence, I absorbed far more about Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York, but less about either New England, New Orleans the Dakotas, or California. In part, that's a practical problem of regional access to archives and history sites. Also, when teaching undergrads, you're faced with trying to talk about stuff they may relate to when they see it in town or in the countryside, especially if they are born-and-bred locals. It gets worse when there's "pet history." That is, certain time frames that where a local area thinks it made a bigger splash, historically. In Pennsylvania, for example, the French and Indian War, the Revolution, Whiskey Rebellion, and the industrial era are the "big things." In the Keystone State, the Civil War gets its press among those outside Civil War enthusiasts entirely at Gettysburg. Locals there, who rely on the history for their economy, might find the Vicksburg campaign an irritating distraction! Funny you mention this, churches out here in Amarillo usually have 2 services on Sunday morning, 8 or 8:30 and 11 or 11:30. Now, during football season, most folks go to the early service to be home to catch the pre-game show and the first game. Post season, they all go to the late services! I think Western Pennsylvania and Texas are the two biggest hotbeds of High School football enthusiasm in the entire United States, too. Edited April 14, 2011 by Fishwelding Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HOLMES Posted April 14, 2011 Share Posted April 14, 2011 Hey, British ARCers, do you still get contentious over your Civil Wars? Hmm...well, it seems like most of you aren't very impressed with your Royals these days, judging from comments I've read here on these very threads. And none of you strike me as very Puritan, either. I know there are many English Civil War enthusiasts in Britain, including reenactors, but I honestly wondered if any get into arguments over which side was right or wrong. How about other wars? Any "Norman vs. Saxon" fights in Pubs? Or Lancaster or York adherents? I have seen some Scots, at least partly in jest, comment on the Stuarts, the '45 and so forth, on modeling forums. Fish, No I dont get like that at all..I was born in another Continent and Country... It is nice to learn about it but to get contentious over it NOW..Nope.... Thrre is always a friendly banter about the WARS OF THE ROSES especially when the two counties play cricket against one another... HOLMES Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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