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A doubt about moving to Germany


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<...> I tried reading an English translation online once. I made it about two pages. It wasn't that I found it offensive, just impossible to read. I don't know if it was the translation, or Corporal Shickelgruber was just a really lousy writer. <...>

Not you or the translation, he really was a lousy writer. Grammar must have been a closed book to him. As Fishwelding suggests, he probably wasn't the type to work with an editor. Hitler's second book is said to be even worse.

We read the first page of Mein Kampf in our history intensive course in school. Mein Kampf was widely available in Third Reich Germany, with ten million copies for a population of 60 million. From 1936 on, every newly-wed couple got a copy for their wedding. The teacher said that a lot of people claimed they had only read the first couple of pages of Mein Kampf, but never read it fully, so they claimed they never knew what Hitler was up to. Reading the first page in school proved that this excuse is not valid. The second paragraph clearly states that Hitler wanted to unify Germany and Austria. In the third or fourth paragraph (still on the first page!) he states that Germany needed to obtain space to sustain their living and growth (the Lebensraum), if necessary by war. So by the end of the first page, Hitler's goals were on the table. The argument, that they had not read it in its entirety, is a non-starter.

Others may have more specific knowledge, but I think the swastika may be permitted in Germany in a historical context. Whether that applies to models I'm not sure.

Historical context yes, models no (at least not on display). If you want to display your model in public (that includes online forums), you have to leave it off or cover it.

The "ban" of the swatika in everyday life is covered by an article of our Strafgesetzbuch (criminal law). THIS ARTICLE on Wikipedia has a translated excerpt of the relevant article in our Strafgesetzbuch (criminal law). As you can see, there are also exceptions that allow you to show a swastika in certain contexts, such as civic education, arts or teaching. Scale modelling doesn't seem to fall under any of these exceptions. A German court once ruled (1970s, I think) that swastikas can't be displayed on toys (including model aircraft). The judge feared that displaying them on toys might have an "accustoming effect" on children. He thought that since they're children, they might not be able to reflect on the historical context and take the swastika for an everyday symbol.

Finnish Hakaristi are outlawed as "symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named" (quoted from the law) are also outlawed. Of course, the Finns used the Hakaristi on their aircraft long before the NSDAP rose to power (long before the NSDAP was even founded, actually), but they're just so similar.

If this law makes it harder for neo-fascists to spew their bullcrap, I can very well live with not being able to display swastikas on my model aircraft in public (although some kill marks on Thunderbolts or Mustangs do look strange). I, for one, think that all relevant exemptions to the ban are covered in § 86 (3) StGB. Yeah, modelling isn't covered by it, but, oh well.

IIRC there are no swastikas on aircraft in museums in Germany.

Not true.

I don't want to inflame this debate, but I actually think the value of Mein Kampf as a historical document is extremely low. As others have noted its poorly written and is just an extended Anti-bolshevik/jew/ect diatribe. It doesn't really provide any insight into Nazi ideology except to say that Hitler was narrow minded. I was only once assigned to me for reading at university (and it was a short excerpt). I'd never assign it if I had to teach a class on it.

<...>

Absolutely. Hitler was a nut case. Everyone knows that. Why waste time wrestling through this book only to prove what was known in the first place. I'd also say there are more interesting books to read or topics to delve into. Such as, why did ordinary, "decent" men carry out the inhuman orders of this maniac?

<...>

One last point to consider: Nazism in Germany is a bit of a taboo subject. Sure its not illegal to own Mein Kampf but is it worth the risk of a misunderstanding between you and a guest visiting your place? Personally I wouldn't bring it in just on that basis alone.

Yes, there might be a risk of a misunderstanding when people see it on the shelf. It's impossible to predict people's reaction to this book. But when grouped with other titles on the subject or history in general, it may not be that problematic.

Generally, though, Nazism is NOT a taboo subject here in Germany. We're very aware of our history.

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You can bring your swastika decals to Germany. If you don´t display them in public, you won´t get into trouble.

Most modelers put the decals on their models and hide it underneath a sheet of paper when displaying the kit on an exhibition.

Thomas

Edited by Thomas
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You can bring your swastika decals to Germany. If you don´t display them in public, you won´t get into trouble.

<...>

Difficult.

Legally speaking, no. Going by the wording of the law, even the act of importing swastikas is forbidden and punishable.

However, as it is with all laws, nullo actore, nullus iudex. If no one presses charges, no one is judged.

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Absolutely. Hitler was a nut case. Everyone knows that. Why waste time wrestling through this book only to prove what was known in the first place. I'd also say there are more interesting books to read or topics to delve into. Such as, why did ordinary, "decent" men carry out the inhuman orders of this maniac?

It does seem like a lot of stuff has been said and written about Nazi dogma, so much so that it's almost "over-studied." But there's worth in understanding the roots of Naziism, insofar as it may not have come out of exceptional things. That is, compare what Hitler and his ardent followers said and did versus what was being said, thought, debated, and done in Central Europe in the period before Naziism, that could have led to it's rise. Common antisemitism, fears brought about by industrial modernity, romantic movements in art, literature, and even popular entertainment...you can find all sorts of possible "roots" of Naziism, that by themselves may not have led to such a movement, but interacting with each other, might have. That's a valid historical question, often asked about other ideologies, religions, dogmas, and systems of thought, however evil or benign. Because otherwise we make the mistake of assuming it was so bizarre a distortion of human politics or culture, that it could almost never happen again. Or worse, those of us outside Germany might mistakenly assume you Germans uniquely capable of such a movement, and arrogantly congratulate ourselves that we couldn't possibly do such a thing.

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You can bring your swastika decals to Germany. If you don´t display them in public, you won´t get into trouble.

Most modelers put the decals on their models and hide it underneath a sheet of paper when displaying the kit on an exhibition.

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Few weeks ago I received a parcel from New Zealand (Wingnuts) which was withheld at Customs for inspection. I had to open all kits and the Officer was checking the decals - not by coincidence - he knew exactly what he was looking for. He answered my question what he was looking for: "Swastikas". Not only would Customs have confiscated the decals, they would have passed them to the District Attorney for further investigation and possible prosecution. But thanks to the European Community I can buy them next door from Hannants.

Lothar

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Not true. Many Germans are quite prepared to openly discuss it. Nazism is still in living history so there's no taboo-ness about it. It is considered bad taste to shave your hair off and go "skinhead" but that is because it is associated with Neo-Fascism.

Alot of misconception here about Nazi history and Germany in general.

Look, if you have an direct assertion to make please do. I don't appreciate insinuations.

While my response was probably not the most well worded, Chernaya Akula's response above basically covers my concern. I'm sure many if not the majority upon seeing the book probably won't mind. However for some its an uncomfortable issue and with the actual value of the book quite low I'd be personally hesitant to bring it with me.

Thanks for all the input. -Neu-, if you have time, please recommend more books :tease:

I'll give three books I've read in the last few years; Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction is probably one of the finest works on the (dis)function of the Nazi society and economy. Another, which is a classic but more of a literary history, is Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem; a report on the Banality of Evil. And while I've been touting Browning's Ordinary Men, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners. In short he blames German Culture for the Holocaust... but has been attacked for some of his methodology.

Absolutely. Hitler was a nut case. Everyone knows that. Why waste time wrestling through this book only to prove what was known in the first place. I'd also say there are more interesting books to read or topics to delve into. Such as, why did ordinary, "decent" men carry out the inhuman orders of this maniac?

That's actually why Browning's Ordinary Men is one of the finest books I've read on the subject. It looks at the common german men in one execution group could justify their actions.

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I'll give three books I've read in the last few years; Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction is probably one of the finest works on the (dis)function of the Nazi society and economy. Another, which is a classic but more of a literary history, is Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem; a report on the Banality of Evil. And while I've been touting Browning's Ordinary Men, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners. In short he blames German Culture for the Holocaust... but has been attacked for some of his methodology.

That's actually why Browning's Ordinary Men is one of the finest books I've read on the subject. It looks at the common german men in one execution group could justify their actions.

This smells suspiciously like a grad-school reading list. :tease: The Tooze book sounds linteresting. I've never read Albert Speer's memoir. Worth reading, with caveats about his potentially self-serving tone? Or is it really untrustworthy? I'm interested, not simply for a look into Nazi racialist ideology, but for the interaction between the Nazis and German industrial practice.

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This smells suspiciously like a grad-school reading list. :tease: The Tooze book sounds linteresting. I've never read Albert Speer's memoir. Worth reading, with caveats about his potentially self-serving tone? Or is it really untrustworthy? I'm interested, not simply for a look into Nazi racialist ideology, but for the interaction between the Nazis and German industrial practice.

In my defence it wasn't my grad-school reading list... it was a friend's that I borrowed from while I was doing mine. :whistle: However Arendt's book is in itself a classic and I read that growing up.

Tooze's book is in my mind a must-read for anybody interested in the Second World War. It basically shatters alot of myths about the efficacy of the Nazi war economy. Rather than being a model of efficiency, Tooze shows how poorly rationalized and mismanaged the entire system was. the vagaries of the nazi ideology basically created an economic mess that ensured germany never had the productive capability to match the allies.

The person who comes off worst in the book is Speer; not only is his so-called economic miracle is dispelled, Tooze shows how he had to have known of the death camps existed, because without them his factories would have never functioned at all.

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In my defence it wasn't my grad-school reading list... it was a friend's that I borrowed from while I was doing mine. :rofl: However Arendt's book is in itself a classic and I read that growing up.

Tooze's book is in my mind a must-read for anybody interested in the Second World War. It basically shatters alot of myths about the efficacy of the Nazi war economy. Rather than being a model of efficiency, Tooze shows how poorly rationalized and mismanaged the entire system was. the vagaries of the nazi ideology basically created an economic mess that ensured germany never had the productive capability to match the allies.

The person who comes off worst in the book is Speer; not only is his so-called economic miracle is dispelled, Tooze shows how he had to have known of the death camps existed, because without them his factories would have never functioned at all.

Interesting. I've gathered from several sources--even Guderian's apologia--that the German economy was a shambles. I'm even skeptical of Germany's supposed technical superiority in World War II. They seemed to be good at making impractical weapons and parlor tricks, not systemically useful technologies. But my impression was that Speer knew that Germany was industrially mismanaged, and fought against it. I'll read Tooze's book.

Honestly, the more I read, the more I wonder if it might be time to revise the old view of Japan as industrially in shambles, compared to its Axis ally. Despite Japanese troubles--uncoordination between the Army, Navy, and industry, raw material shortages and mismanagement, shortages of quality machine tools,etc.--maybe Japan was in better shape, industrially speaking. After all, the Japanese had industrialized under tougher circumstances, like the United States and the Soviet Union, without some of the expertise and academic science that Germany wielded prior to World War I. Considering that, Nazi Germany's performance is rather unimpressive.

Edited by Fishwelding
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A good book to check out on the subject is "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45" by Milton Mayer. Covers more of the how and why normal German people became Nazis. Really eye opening to see it from the view of simple German citizens during the Nazi regime.

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Interesting. I've gathered from several sources--even Guderian's apologia--that the German economy was a shambles. I'm even skeptical of Germany's supposed technical superiority in World War II. They seemed to be good at making impractical weapons and parlor tricks, not systemically useful technologies.

Oh that's like my favorite soap box right there! Over the years I've developed a healthy disregard for Germany's supposed technological superiority in WWII. Sure they had some fantastic weapons on paper, but getting them onto the battlefield and applied in a useful fashion was a completely different matter. The main weapons the germans fought with remained largely unchanged for most of the war: the BF-109 and the Panzer IV... both of which had serious defects that were never remedied, nor did their replacement programs ever fully displaced them. Some of the other systems were either far too costly, militarily ineffective, or both. The other issue was that German equipment was too complex compared to their allied counterparts. I remember speaking to an american vet years ago and he compared the simplicity of their 155 to the german equivalent. He remarked that many repairs that took an hour or so on the M1 could take a day on the German piece.

Too often people undervalue the real technological breakthroughs made by the allies and their ability to put them into service; the cavity magnatron, strategic bombers, codebreaking and the atomic bomb.

But my impression was that Speer knew that Germany was industrially mismanaged, and fought against it. I'll read Tooze's book.

Oh you'll love this book then. Tooze points out that many of the reforms were already coming down the pipeline when Speer entered office, he benefited from them. He also suggests that Speer was emblematic of the Nazi leadership's problems not a break from it... he was effective at pumping resources into the party's priority of the day.

Honestly, the more I read, the more I wonder if it might be time to revise the old view of Japan as industrially in shambles, compared to its Axis ally. Despite Japanese troubles--uncoordination between the Army, Navy, and industry, raw material shortages and mismanagement, shortages of quality machine tools,etc.--maybe Japan was in better shape, industrially speaking. After all, the Japanese had industrialized under tougher circumstances, like the United States and the Soviet Union, without some of the expertise and academic science that Germany wielded prior to World War I. Considering that, Nazi Germany's performance is rather unimpressive.

I could agree with that with certain caveats. I think going into WWII Japan actually realized the economic hole they were in and their campaign reflected that. Its just that it was in such a deep hole when they started the war and the Navy/Army rivalry didn't help matters. Economically they lost it at 7:41 am, December 7th 1941. That's not to say that economics determine everything, but definitely is an important consideration in this field.

The real economic star was the United Kingdom... not only did it develop some groundbreaking technologies, its manufacturing practices made it far more nimble at putting new ideas into production and churning out mass quantities of them. Finally they correctly assessed the importance of what they discovered. ULTRA basically did more for the allies than a thousand escorts vessels ever could, and it was accorded the highest level of protection. Then consider how much the Germans poured into the A4/V2 project and its actual military or political effect? Its nowhere near as significant.

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