Jump to content

Question on Cherynobl


Recommended Posts

Okay I know that at that time the US and USSR were very unfriendly to one another. But did the US offer any assistance with the disaster? Did Russia ever ask? I guess the twenty-fifth anniversary is going on now so thats why I asked. I was only like ten at the time....

I assume the answers to both questions is NO.. Right?

Edited by jimz66
Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an interesting topic; I do remember it, although I don't have answers to your questions. I suspect the immediate aftermath was so horrible, and action had to be taken so quickly even at the cost of many heroic lives, that there wasn't time for such negotiations. Perhaps there was an unwillingness to reveal just how bad the situation was as well. But regarding offering or asking for help, who knows what discussions may have gone on in secret on both sides?

John

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Soviets refused to even admit anything had happened for a number of days. They refused all outside offers of aid (typical of the policy of the USSR). I believe eventually some foreigners were allowed in, but it was those with specific expertise in radiation sickness, etc.

Interestingly, I was in USAF intel in Alaska at the time. We got wind (so to speak) of something major being up, but we didn't know what. Other sources obviously did, because within about 24 hours of the accident a WC-135B weather recce bird (equipped for upper air sampling) arrived at Elmendorf and stayed for a couple of weeks. We also had a U-2R temporarily based there, also able to do upper air sampling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For a succinct account of the Chernobyl disaster, take a look at Richard Rhodes' Arsenals of Folly. In my opinion, the book doesn't do the best job of covering his stated topic, the nuclear arms race (unlike his earlier, very good books), but he does have a good account, with useful footnotes, of Chernobyl.

If I recall correctly, he states that the Kremlin was forced to acknowledge that something had gone terribly wrong after Swedish scientists began detecting fission products in the atmosphere coming from inside the Soviet Union. Interesting to me was the monumental engineering the Soviet Army ultimately did to contain the disaster, and keep it from getting much worse.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...I thought that USA did assist but Japan were the most pro-active of the Countries at the time..

Here is a link that is useful...If you look in paragraph 1 and 2 in the OVERVIEW

it talks of USA an what the Country { and other Countried did }tried to do for the disaster and for Chernobyl....

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Internation...rnobyl_accident

some Countries have always tried to hide the most obvious.even large scale disasters..One thinks of India and BHOPAL

Radioactive disaster that Killed many a person, and still people suffer from that major accident ....I do believe that plant was {and still is..} owned by an USA company and

they did not do a Brilliant job of helping those people there ..and still those families are fighting for Justice and compensation...Just like people of Chernobyl I guess where their Govt denies that anything is wrong at all...

Just saying !

HOLMES ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't answer your questions, but one thing that has stood out in my memory: I was about 11 myself and within several days of the accident, I remember being on recess at my elementary school and it was a very cloudy (near over-cast) day and the underside of the clouds looked very strange... like similar sized perfectly shaped half-spheres hanging out of the bottom of them everywhere. I then remember the meteorologist on the evening news citing that it had something to do with the radiation in the atmosphere from Chernobyl.

Have never seen clouds look like that before or since.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the statement the US and USSR were unfriendly towards on another is an accurate statement. Not the worst in the history of US / USSR relations but the Reagan years were publically fairly confrontational although it seems like behind the scenes there was more actual communication. The Soviets were a favorite action movie bad guy in the 1980s.

Since the ex-USSR refused all outside help post 1990 when the Kursk sank until well into the accident, I would be surprised to find they accepted any help beyond scientific advice (which could publically be dismissed) during Cherynobl. Unfortunately the Soviets also probably have more actual experience with nuclear accidents than anyone else, so could be seen as the experts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure that it did take a while before the USSR even admitted there was a problem. They had a hard time denying it after there were graphics on the news showing the size of the cloud as it headed toward the Scandavian countries and its point of origin. There used to be some videos on you tube that were taken during the problem including one that looked down into the inferno, and some showing a team that went into the complex later. I don't know if they are still there or not.

As for accidents, they have had their share. I remember in the 80s more than one Russian sub on it way out to patrol when it became disabled due to reactor failure.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the statement the US and USSR were unfriendly towards on another is an accurate statement. Not the worst in the history of US / USSR relations but the Reagan years were publically fairly confrontational although it seems like behind the scenes there was more actual communication.

It depends on what part of the Reagan era you're talking about. Until some time after Gorbachev had consolidated his power 1986-87, relations were VERY testy. There were always backchannel communications going on, but overall, relations in the early to mid-1980s were pretty dismal by any measure. I can tell you for a fact that during that period (remembering that we're talking about the eras of Brezhnev, Andropov, and Chernenko), and even well into the Gorby era, the US military considered the possibility of a surprise Soviet attack a very real one, and one for which it exercised regularly. The KAL shootdown in 1983 was a low point nearly equal in some ways to the others during the Cuban crisis and the Yom Kippur War. Lots of misunderstandings and miscommunication took place that could, under slightly different circumstances, have led to very different, and not nice outcomes.

Very few people know it, but Chernenko's death was not officially announced, nor known outside the USSR for several days after he'd died. The entire Soviet military communications net went suddenly and completely silent, which caused some VERY tense moments in the Pentagon and the White House until they figured out what was going on. I was in the intel biz at the time, and we really had no clue, because we'd never seen this kind of thing happen before to that magnitude. Lots of speculation (none of it of a pleasant nature) was flying about what it meant. I suspect that situation occurred because of in-fighting inside the Politburo, and it took that much time for Gorbachev to come out on top. I can tell you it was damn scary at the time, and it got NO coverage in the media *at all*. I remember not being able to sleep for several days, worrying about what might be in store for us.

Chernobyl took place very shortly after Gorbachev took power, so the entrenched power base was still very much in control of the levers of power at that point. The old ways of doing things were still the norm, and would be for some time. Soviet reaction was to clam up and refuse to say anything, and to accept help from no one. Only after the magnitude of the disaster was readily apparent to the whole world did the Kremlin begin to admit to it.

J

Link to post
Share on other sites

Russia didn't ask and I don't know if we offered officially or un-officially. I do know the Russians kicking the cobalt outside of their MI-8 helicopter directly into the reactor over the radioactive plume were heroes, they all ended up dying.

Edited by fulcrum1
Link to post
Share on other sites

There has been unofficial help by groups in the U.S. to aid the children growing up in the radiation effected areas around Chernobyl. For years up until recently children from the Ukraine where sent to Northeast Ohio to spend their summers in a radiation free environment. There were several groups that sponsered this operation. It may be because of the number of ehtnic Ukrainians in the northeast Ohio area.

Mark

Link to post
Share on other sites
If I recall correctly, he states that the Kremlin was forced to acknowledge that something had gone terribly wrong after Swedish scientists began detecting fission products in the atmosphere coming from inside the Soviet Union. Interesting to me was the monumental engineering the Soviet Army ultimately did to contain the disaster, and keep it from getting much worse.

If I remember wright then it was the Swedish nuclear plant in Oskarshamn that detected the radiation first. They evacuated their plant after some of their sensors detected radiation and they thought it was a leak from them.

It was all over the news in Sweden that we might have a nuclear accident in Sweden.

Hours later they started to detect radiation all over.

Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC it was a while before they evacuated the civilian population from the affected area around the Chernobyl plant.

This website is very interesting........it tells the tale of a girl that rides her high powered motorcycle through the Chermobyl dead zone. It's a fascinating read and includes plenty of pictures etc......but from what I've heard....she did not actually ride her motorbike through the dead zone. It's a very popular website.

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

Link to post
Share on other sites
It depends on what part of the Reagan era you're talking about. Until some time after Gorbachev had consolidated his power 1986-87, relations were VERY testy. There were always backchannel communications going on, but overall, relations in the early to mid-1980s were pretty dismal by any measure. I can tell you for a fact that during that period (remembering that we're talking about the eras of Brezhnev, Andropov, and Chernenko), and even well into the Gorby era, the US military considered the possibility of a surprise Soviet attack a very real one, and one for which it exercised regularly. The KAL shootdown in 1983 was a low point nearly equal in some ways to the others during the Cuban crisis and the Yom Kippur War. Lots of misunderstandings and miscommunication took place that could, under slightly different circumstances, have led to very different, and not nice outcomes.

Very few people know it, but Chernenko's death was not officially announced, nor known outside the USSR for several days after he'd died. The entire Soviet military communications net went suddenly and completely silent, which caused some VERY tense moments in the Pentagon and the White House until they figured out what was going on. I was in the intel biz at the time, and we really had no clue, because we'd never seen this kind of thing happen before to that magnitude. Lots of speculation (none of it of a pleasant nature) was flying about what it meant. I suspect that situation occurred because of in-fighting inside the Politburo, and it took that much time for Gorbachev to come out on top. I can tell you it was damn scary at the time, and it got NO coverage in the media *at all*. I remember not being able to sleep for several days, worrying about what might be in store for us.

Chernobyl took place very shortly after Gorbachev took power, so the entrenched power base was still very much in control of the levers of power at that point. The old ways of doing things were still the norm, and would be for some time. Soviet reaction was to clam up and refuse to say anything, and to accept help from no one. Only after the magnitude of the disaster was readily apparent to the whole world did the Kremlin begin to admit to it.

Interesting insights Jennings, thanks for posting up! :blink:

Gorbachev is about the first Russian President I have much memory of and I kind of seem to remember Chernenko's death being mentioned on the news... but didn't realize how serious the tension level ratcheted up at that time.

I do know the Russians kicking the cobalt outside of their MI-8 helicopter directly into the reactor over the radioactive plume were heroes, they all ended up dying.

I remember the videos of them doing that, but am curious, how did the Cobalt work in this application? I just looked it up on Wiki as I was curious, but it doesn't seem to explain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt

I also remember the video that the one person took from the roof of the building looking right down into the wrecked reactor. Where did they find such people?... they all had to know it was guaranteed suicide, but yet they still did it! :salute:

Link to post
Share on other sites
I also remember the video that the one person took from the roof of the building looking right down into the wrecked reactor. Where did they find such people?... they all had to know it was guaranteed suicide, but yet they still did it! :blink:

IIRC these people weren't exactly willing volunteers. They were mostly young conscripts that really had no clue as to the real danger. They spent something like 30 or 40 seconds on the roof kicking debris into the hole.....then reboarded the chopper and their job was done....then a new chopper would fly in with fresh guys to kick the debris back into the reactor core through the hole in the roof.

I also recall the Soviets using R/C units with cameras on them that weren't much more than R/C toys. They used these to get a close look with cameras at the melted down core......but the radiation was so high it would fry the circuits of these R/C untis very quickly.....making the R/C unit unresponsive to commands.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

THE LIQUIDATORS

The Liquidators are those people who were recruited or forced to assist in the cleanup or the "liquidation" of the consequences of the accident.

As a totalitarian government the Soviet Union forced many young soldiers to assist in the cleanup of the Chernobyl accident, apparently without sufficient protective clothing and insufficient explanation of the danger involved.

Over 650,000 liquidators helped in the cleanup of the Chernobyl disaster in the first year. Many of those who worked as liquidators became ill and according to some estimates about 8,000 to 10,000 have died from the radioactive dose they received at the Chornobyl Power Plant. This group apparently includes those who built the containment building over the destroyed reactor No. 4 which is called the SARCOPHAGUS.

picture: Cleanup workers (Liquidators) going to the Chornobyl Plant. Photo by Lu Taskey.

image7.2.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's something I found a few years ago while I was trying to find out what really happened in Chernobyl. I would have to say that this is the most informative article/documentary I have ever found into what really happened back in 1986. I want to warn you in advance that it shows some graphic images of its long lasting effects on the children of Belarus even though they were born many years after the disaster. There's also a drop down menu with many extras including a timeline which describes every step as to what went wrong. I hope you find this informative like I did. I wanted to say enjoy it, but it just didn't seem appropriate.

http://todayspictures.slate.com/inmotion/essay_chernobyl/

Cheers'

Mark

Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember watching it on the TV news not long after it happened.

If you take a look at some of the BBC new archives it was a matter of hours, or days at the most before it was on TV... it wasnt lok before they reslised they couldnt hide it like it seems they wanted to.

The Soviet government in Moscow didnt want any help from outside while the story was a little different in Ukraine and Belarus.

My girlfriends dad remembers it well... but as my Russian isnt great and his doesnt speak English ... ((

Belarus was the largest effected area by the fallout, while of course almost half the oblast in Ukraine was and still is a no go zone.

The US as being typical at the time didnt really offer assistance as opposed to demand explanations, however there was of course a small number outside government who offered help but where turned away for obvious reasons.

The answer to both is no, but as Russia was as well equiped as any other place at the time to deal with it I dont suppose they felt they needed to ask.

I believe now in Ukraine they are talking about a pilot scheme of growing some kind of food crops in the no go zone as a test, because the plant life there seems to have adapted well to the radiation...

Time will tell I suppose, but I dont think those food stuffs will be on general sale in UA or the rest of Europe.

Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't recall any official US government help coming to the USSR for Chernobyl, business tycoon Armand Hammer, who had some pretty good ties with the Soviets was instrumental in getting a bone marrow transplant specialist from California, Doctor Robert Gale and a team into the country to assist with treatment of some of the most critically ill victims. Hammer and Gale also got permission to take a helicopter ride around the reactor and the deserted areas to see the effects first hand.

Link to post
Share on other sites
This incident bankrupted the country. The figures being bounced around - $20B..$30B... and more. All that money just sunk into the ground. For any economy, that is a killer.

It had help from a nebulous war in Afghanistan, and specific economic and industrial mismanagement (independent of any generalized opinion about their brand of garrison-state Marxist socialism). The reactor systems' design, and the crews' operating practices left much to be desired to begin with.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I did some poking around......explosion at Chernobyl happened at 1:23am on Apr 26 and the evacuation of Pripyat began at 1pm on Apr 17......36 hours after the accident began. Pripyat is within a couple of miles of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/features/ch...herno-faq.shtml

The entire town of Pripyat (population 49,360), which lay only three kilometres from the plant was completely evacuated 36 hours after the accident. During the subsequent weeks and months an additional 67,000 people were evacuated from their homes in contaminated areas and relocated on government order. In total some 200,0000 people are believed to have been relocated as a result of the accident.

Some 150,000 square kilometres in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine are contaminated and stretch northward of the plant site as far as 500 kilometres. An area spanning 30 kilometres around the plant is considered the “exclusion zone” and is essentially uninhabited.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it appears it was weeks and months before everyone was evacuated from some of the more contaminated areas. Of course there was contamination to a lesser degree all around the northern hemisphere....such as Sweden and these areas were never evacuated due to the lower (and in some cases "much" lower) level of contamination.

So the basic rule is.......don't live near a nuclear plant.....because if a bad accident happens......it's pretty certain you won't be notified until after the accident and your children have been exposed. In all the 3 accidents........USSR, US and Japan........the local population wasn't notified of the accdent and given the chance to evacuate while the disaster was in the earliest stages.

Regarding the evacuation from Three Mile Island and the somewhat confused situation wihtin the first days after the accident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

The accident began at 4 a.m. on Wednesday, March 28, 1979.

Twenty-eight hours after the accident began, William Scranton III, the lieutenant governor, appeared at a news briefing to say that Metropolitan Edison, the plant's owner, had assured the state that "everything is under control".[47] Later that day, Scranton changed his statement, saying that the situation was "more complex than the company first led us to believe".[47] There were conflicting statements about radiation releases.[48] Schools were closed and residents were urged to stay indoors. Farmers were told to keep their animals under cover and on stored feed.[47][48]

Governor Dick Thornburgh, on the advice of NRC Chairman Joseph Hendrie, advised the evacuation "of pregnant women and pre-school age children...within a five-mile radius of the Three Mile Island facility." The evacuation zone was extended to a 20 mile radius on Friday March 30.[49] Within days, 140,000 people had left the area.[10][47][50] More than half of the 663,500 population[51] within the 20 mile radius remained in that area.[49] According to a survey conducted in April 1979, 98% of the evacuees had returned to their homes within 3 weeks.[49]

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...