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Black Thursday: Luftwaffe vs USAAF


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Hi Guys

October 14, 1943. AKA Black Thursday, was when USAF B-17s were on a bombing raid on German factories, but luftwaffe shot down 77 B-17s in one day.

I heard Jg 27,54 and a lot of other gruppe participated, but are there any pilots that stand out? Wilhelm Schilling, Hans Dortenmann, etc. Which model 109/190s did they fly, also markings are preffered

Thank you very much

DAKfreak

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The second Schweinfurt raid was attacked by elements of numerous Gruppen,both single and twin engined aircraft.JG 3 initially then JG 1 and JG 26 did most of the damage.Maj.Johannes Seifert,Kommandeur,II./JG26 is perhaps the most well known claimant. He shot down a B-17 (42-29952) near Maastricht.

Steve

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Twin engined aircraft? What kind of twin engined luftwaffe birds were agile enough to take down Schweinfurt bombers?

The Bf 110 and Me 410 were both used in the anti-bomber role, you don't have to be particularly agile to take on a "dicke max". They had the advantage of being able to pack a lot of punch but were extremely vulnerable to escorting fighters, once the P-51 came into service they were doomed.

Edited by The Mikester
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Oh sorry about that guys, but I dont know what it is, the USAAF was established 1947, and the US navy planes were fighting in the pacific, what was it then,that was flying over europe?

DAKfreak

My dates my be off a little but I believe the Army Air Corps became the USAAF in March of '42. It remained the USAAF until Sept. of '47 when it became the USAF and was established as a separate, independent branch of the armed forces.

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The number seemed a bit high.

From Wiki;

Overall 60 bombers were shot down by German fighters and flak and 17 additional bombers were damaged so badly, that they crashed upon return or had to be scrapped afterwards.

The numbers are the same, but the breakdown is more clear.

Best wishes,

Grant

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The Bf 110 and Me 410 were both used in the anti-bomber role, you don't have to be particularly agile to take on a "dicke max". They had the advantage of being able to pack a lot of punch but were extremely vulnerable to escorting fighters, once the P-51 came into service they were doomed.

True but they were still used,even if only to lob rockets and mortars into the formations.

The first missions flown by Thunderbolts with drop tanks utilised the 75 gallon tank from the P-39 and were started on July 24th 1943. The first British manufactured 108 Gallon tanks for the P-47 were delivered in early September 1943 a few weeks before the P-51s arrived. Things were about to get more difficult for the Luftwaffe.

According to 8th Air Force assessments it wasn't until January 1944 that the fighters shot down more enemy (Luftwaffe) aircraft than the bombers themselves did,though the figures are somewhat inflated (300 for the bombers and 350 for the fighters)attacking a bomber formation,even unescorted,was a dangerous task.

Radio intercepts make it quite clear that by late 1943 some Luftwaffe fighter units were not at all keen to attack escorted bombers at all.

Here's a sample from 8th Air Force documents.

8thintercepts.jpg

Cheers

Steve

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One of the units that stands out in my mind for the luftwaffe is JG 3 "Udet" ..

Here is a model I built a few years back of a plane from that unit that was destroyed and it's pilot killed during the Raid.

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/801-900/Fea884_Bf-109_Crenshaw/00.shtm

Since is was 1943 these were fairly early G6 aircraft - note the zebra striped cammo - which was common for JG3 during this time.

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