OT $105 million school too expenisve to use

[11bee]

This thread got me to thinking while at the gym last night; I'm not sure trades have it that bad in America, after all; maybe opportunities are under-reported. On the one hand, national leadership both public and private--including both political parties--have essentially decided that with few exceptions, Americans don't manufacture anymore. We're "idea-people," or "knowledge-workers." This is why we're supposed to pay lip service to "made in America" while really accepting why these jobs are shuffling overseas. It's the market, once again making our world more efficient, we're told. Well, you may or may not believe that. And even if you do, you could raise a scary question that--gasp!--cuts across currently fashionable political lines: maybe national security is more important than capitalism and free markets. After all, if some potential adversary makes all our stuff, how do we get new weapons?

Okay, but on the subject of keeping skilled crafts. These jobs should be in decline if we don't make anything other than "good ideas," right? I mean, outside of maintaining cubicle farms and the machinery we get imported, why do we need electricians and HVAC troops? I think I've read where truck driving has fallen on some hard times. But wait! I hear from several directions that at least in some parts of the country, there is actually a shortage of skilled labor, and not just those required to maintain stuff, but even those involved in manufacturing--machinists, for example. If this is true, and you get trained in operating C&C machines at Tri-County VoTech, you're probably going to out-earn your brother who got that philosophy degree from Uppinsnout University. (At this point, with the glut of lawyers, even if your brother parlays his senior thesis on Emmanuel Kant into a law school slot he's only digging himself a deeper hole.) I see ads on TV for trade programs, but am suspicious that, like private for-profit college programs, a lot maybe diploma mills and student-loan farms that really just fleece their students.

So honestly, I don't know what the state of things are in America--maybe trades have it better than reported, but nobody's reporting it. Maybe, like college grads, they have to ruthlessly follow jobs by moving wherever they are, regardless of familial or sentimental attachments to this place or that.

Depends on the trade. Technical trades such as plumbing, electricians, etc seem to be doing quite well and I know a good number of guys in both. I can vouch that they make nice $. The ones that hustle make very good money because they can pull in side jobs on weekends / nights that are often "under the table". Construction always pays well but the down side is that you will probably sit in the winter and during recessionary times. Lesser skilled trades such as truck driving, etc. may always be able to find work but at least up in this area, the pay isn't much over min wage.

True manufacturing jobs are still around but unless you are lucky enough to get a union job (and those are definitely on the way out in this area), the pay doesn't seem to be that great either. If you want to work in manufacturing, move south and hope to get a job but be prepared for a shock when you see the pay.

My advice for anyone who doesn't want to go the college route - look at a good vocational trade such as an electrician or plumber. Otherwise, find something in health care. Even nursing assistants up here make $16-17/hr and it is a good pathway to becoming an LPN / RN. If I had to do it all over again, I would have gone this route. RN's make very nice money, will always find work and can pick and chose shifts. They also can pick up per diem work for extra $. With the baby boomers fading away, health care is one of the few promising labor fields for the next 10-20 years.

Whatever you do, do not plan on getting out of HS with a general degree and expect to find anything beyond minimum wage work for the rest of your life. Get a degree or get a trade, otherwise you are hosed.

[pastafarian]

I think that most foods are still produced here, but on "commercial" farms rather than independent farms. Back in Tennessee, I knew several people that were growers for Tyson with a couple chicken houses on private land. I guess rather than commercial vs. independent, is more like contractors.

In the winter, at least out here in Texas, we import alot of fresh fruit from South America. That's kinda silly though because grapes get up to around $4 a pound. I'm too cheap for that so I just skip fresh fruit in the winter.

I think all electronics and toys with tasty lead paint come from China (not aware of any made here). I'd guess the other stuff you mentioned gets produced here though. Other than an ak-47, the only other firearms that i would buy would be made here. I think in that area the "made in the usa" tag is still pretty important and seen as quality.

John

[Wayne S]

Jefferson's ideas were wrapped up in politics at the time, more than a narrow discussion of what it means to be intelligent.

Where did you come up with the thought of narrow discussion pertaining to intelligent?

His Ideas were wrapped around building a society, below has to do with complexity of said society.

Jefferson hoped that America remain a land of small farmers, perfect democrats, free of such evils as big, authoritarian governments, rich merchants, banks, and factories powered by helpless wage-workers. In this way, democracy and morality would best be preserved. Jefferson was politically opposed to those such as New Yorker Alexander Hamilton, who wished to see the new Federal Government support the growth of business, banking finance, and even manufacturing, similar to England at the time.

So Jefferson wished to establish the innate moral superiority of the humble farmer, an idea that has survived strongly in America since. It's been the basis for lots of government subsidies toward farmers.

Of course, this Jeffersonian vision had curiously little to say about Virginia and Carolina planters and their slaves. It also implied that, as population grew, land for more small farms had to come from somewhere--the Indians.

[Wayne S]

This thread got me to thinking while at the gym last night; I'm not sure trades have it that bad in America, after all; maybe opportunities are under-reported. On the one hand, national leadership both public and private--including both political parties--have essentially decided that with few exceptions, Americans don't manufacture anymore. We're "idea-people," or "knowledge-workers." This is why we're supposed to pay lip service to "made in America" while really accepting why these jobs are shuffling overseas. It's the market, once again making our world more efficient, we're told. Well, you may or may not believe that. And even if you do, you could raise a scary question that--gasp!--cuts across currently fashionable political lines: maybe national security is more important than capitalism and free markets. After all, if some potential adversary makes all our stuff, how do we get new weapons?

Okay, but on the subject of keeping skilled crafts. These jobs should be in decline if we don't make anything other than "good ideas," right? I mean, outside of maintaining cubicle farms and the machinery we get imported, why do we need electricians and HVAC troops? I think I've read where truck driving has fallen on some hard times. But wait! I hear from several directions that at least in some parts of the country, there is actually a shortage of skilled labor, and not just those required to maintain stuff, but even those involved in manufacturing--machinists, for example. If this is true, and you get trained in operating C&C machines at Tri-County VoTech, you're probably going to out-earn your brother who got that philosophy degree from Uppinsnout University. (At this point, with the glut of lawyers, even if your brother parlays his senior thesis on Emmanuel Kant into a law school slot he's only digging himself a deeper hole.) I see ads on TV for trade programs, but am suspicious that, like private for-profit college programs, a lot maybe diploma mills and student-loan farms that really just fleece their students.

So honestly, I don't know what the state of things are in America--maybe trades have it better than reported, but nobody's reporting it. Maybe, like college grads, they have to ruthlessly follow jobs by moving wherever they are, regardless of familial or sentimental attachments to this place or that.

Hey Fish just out of curiosity. When it comes to these thoughts, what way are you looking at the public school system? Are you looking at as Workforce training?

[Fishwelding]

Hey Fish just out of curiosity. When it comes to these thoughts, what way are you looking at the public school system? Are you looking at as Workforce training?

I tend to see the public school system as an ideal that we just do our best to meet. It should be a universal system that supplies some basic curriculum required for citizenship in our society. By this I don't mean political concepts so much as skills: communication, mathematics, a working knowledge of history, social concepts, and so forth. Obviously, politics do enter into this because it's a bear getting too many Americans who agree on what "working knowledge" of any of that means. Again, an ideal we do our best to meet, and that includes agreeing on rough definitions for what we teach kids. In a sense, this is workforce training, because I believe that basic education, however bad we think it now is in this country, is still in large measure an oft-overlooked asset in promoting our collective standard of living. It can be very difficult to do and have many things we do in this country in another society where education is less available. (The same, incidentally, might be said for our great evil du jour, bureaucracy). No bucks in education, no buck rogers.

I think public school should offer several paths, perhaps beginning in High school. Yes, more vo-tech preparation. Having these directional paths split too early is controversial, because high school kids don't necessarily know what they want to do in life, or maybe simply haven't matured enough yet to realize the importance of it. Similarly, lots of people dislike the thought of channeling students based on testing. But practically, we do a lot of this already, and formalizing it could still include avenues for people to change their minds later on. (I, for one, would like to see more programs aimed at getting adults into college later than, say, age 22).

Okay, but beyond these practical job-preparation points, I think the public school can, in some sense, offer lessons in basic citizenship. This is where things get really controversial, as nobody will precisely agree on what this means. Does this mean a general commitment to the Golden Rule? Patriotism? Some sense of religiosity? Skills in debate, rhetoric, persuasion? Philosophy of some or another kind? Or just a basic outline of the procedures of government, law, and how to mail a letter? My take? Well, for what little it's worth, my vote is for encouraging students to be able to discuss ideas civilly, to investigate their world, try to understand how and why it is, and consider how it could be different. I'm not interested in telling students what they should like or dislike, so much as getting them to base likes and dislikes on rational inquiry. My message to young people is: making intelligent judgments is more work than most people care to do or admit. If you haven't considered--listened to, read, thought about--opposing viewpoints, than you have no sense of how sturdy your own ideas even are. Thinking is hard work, so work hard at it, so you are a better citizen. If, as high school students often do, they fancy themselves world-wise cynics, I'd settle for appealing to them in the short-term by saying simply: if you think harder than other people, you'll be better at things than they are. That'll hold them over until they mature, anyway.

With regard to the vocational-technical schooling, I've considered that it might be beneficial to move past the now-strong distinction at a four-year degree. We might find it better to tailor degree programs in different ways, which might save some people time and money by having a frankly shorter college experience, while bringing other people into more college than they otherwise would have had. RNs, mentioned above, have all sorts of ways of moving through degree programs at various levels, and although I'm somewhat concerned about the integrity of a lot of "alternative" degree programs, I think we could bring that under at least as much oversight as now exists on traditional colleges.

[TaiidanTomcat]

With the baby boomers fading away, health care is one of the few promising labor fields for the next 10-20 years.

Until they die off, then the bubble bursts. Sort of... Thank god for fat kids!

[11bee]

Until they die off, then the bubble bursts. Sort of... Thank god for fat kids!

And their fat parents... We are blessed with an abundance of fatties so that should keep the health care industry in hiring mode for the next 50 years. I wonder if it's too late to get my RN?