Lifecolor acrylic paint?

[FrankC]

My LHS just starting stocking "lifecolor" acrylic paint.

Whats the skinny on this stuff - I am really hesitant to even try it $4 a bottle!

I currently use Tamiya acrylics almost exclusively. Is this stuff compatible with Tamiya?

Also -can you thin it with lacquer thinner?

Any input appreciated.

Frank

[Jennings]

I haven't used it myself, but I've heard nothing but good things about it. I've not heard of it being compatible with Tamiya. Just curious why you would want to thin a water based acrylic with something as nasty as lacquer thinner? I thin Tamiya with Tamiya thinner, and Xtracrylics with distilled water. Way less toxic and foul-smelling than lacquer thinner.

[casey]

Hi Frank,

Lifecolor paints are water based acrylics. They can be thinned with distilled water or Tamiya X-20A thinners. You cannot use lacquer thinners. The colors are accurate. They go on best when sprayed in light misty coats.

[Triarius]

Also -can you thin it with lacquer thinner?

Frank

I haven't used it myself, but I've heard nothing but good things about it. I've not heard of it being compatible with Tamiya. Just curious why you would want to thin a water based acrylic with something as nasty as lacquer thinner? I thin Tamiya with Tamiya thinner, and Xtracrylics with distilled water. Way less toxic and foul-smelling than lacquer thinner.—emphasis mine, Triarius

Ditto. Search these forums for "lacquer thinner" and my handle (Triarius) to find out why thinning any acrylic with lacquer thinner is unnecessary, unwise, and just plain uncool.

Hi Frank,

Lifecolor paints are water based acrylics. They can be thinned with distilled water or Tamiya X-20A thinners. You cannot use lacquer thinners. The colors are accurate. They go on best when sprayed in light misty coats.

Thanks for the info! Yet another vote for Lifecolor.

[FrankC]

Ditto. Search these forums for "lacquer thinner" and my handle (Triarius) to find out why thinning any acrylic with lacquer thinner is unnecessary, unwise, and just plain uncool.

Thanks for the info! Yet another vote for Lifecolor.

I guess I don't know what is cool? I thin tamiya exclusively with lacquer thinner! Tamiya and GUNZE are wierd the are "acrylic lacquers". Not only can you thin them with lacquer thinner, you probably hate Tamiya paint UNTIL you thin it with lacquer thinner! search on my name to find out why thinning tamiya with lacquer thinner is cool because you get WAY better results than you ever could with water...

Sorry Triarius - you're all wet on this one.

As far as lifecolor - it seems it's not an acrylic lacquer. It's going to be a more tradional acrylic. Like Pollyscale or even the old Polly-S (which you absolutely can't thin with lacquer). I have a few bottles of it I got in a figure painting set. It actually reminds me of the old polly-s in the way it smells and looks in the jar! I wonder if it's close? I hope not! That stuff brush painted ok but was a serious pain in the butt to spray. As hard as pollyscale was to wrangle into a fine line polly-s was impossible!

I have used pollyscale for years - I can get good results with it, but it's working VERY hard. I suspect this lifecolor is the same way. I don't feel like taking a few years and spending hundreds on a new line that's hard to work with (I mostly do stuff that requires fine lines and translucent coats). I'm less interested in it because it's not compatible with my main paint - Tamiya. (you can't mix them like you can gunze and Tamiya). It's also extremely expensive $5 a bottle!!..

I'll probably get some - but until my supply of Tamiya drys out I probably won't get much..

Anyways - thanks for the responses.

Frank

[Mike C]

In my experience with LifeColor, it sprays best when thinned with mixture of distilled water and denatured alcohol, at 50:50 ratio. One colour that you should AVOID at all cost is the bare metal. Down here where I live, they cost AU$4 as well for 22ml bottle, while Tamiya costs AU$3.50 for 10ml bottle, which makes LifeColor almost half the price of Tamiya.

Also, LifeColor is quite a bit thicker than Tamiya or Gunze, so when thinned for spraying, you'd end up using less paint than Tamiya or Gunze.

[Triarius]

I guess I don't know what is cool? I thin tamiya exclusively with lacquer thinner! Tamiya and GUNZE are wierd the are "acrylic lacquers". Not only can you thin them with lacquer thinner, you probably hate Tamiya paint UNTIL you thin it with lacquer thinner! search on my name to find out why thinning tamiya with lacquer thinner is cool because you get WAY better results than you ever could with water...

Sorry Triarius - you're all wet on this one.

Frank

"Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain."—G. B. Shaw

Not only am I not all wet, you've been breathing too much lacquer thinner. When someone who really knows what they are talking about offers you some gentle but cogent advice, take it, don't spout nonsense.

There is no such thing as an acrylic lacquer, period. Acrylics are polymers, and they don't just dry, they cure. Lacquers only dry, and can be redissolved in their original solvents.

"Lacquer thinner" is not a single solvent. It is a blend of solvents, one of which is usually alcohol. Others include acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, toluene, xylene, and often others—anything the manufacturer wants to put in. These other solvents (besides alcohol) are intended to dissolve the modern lacquer resins that are not soluble in the traditional lacquer solvent—alcohol. When you mix Tamiya or Gunze with lacquer thinner, you are altering or even destroying the acrylic polymer. It will never polymerize. Then, because several of the solvents in lacquer thinner dissolve styrene, you are melting it into the plastic surface.

Tamiya and Gunze are properly thinned with 90% isopropyl alcohol and a few drops of acrylic retarder. That is essentially what their proprietary thinners are. They work beautifully with this. Clean up with Windex (or equivalent) and Simple Green.

But instead, you insist on filling the air, your lungs, liver, kidneys, and brain with more toxic substances. Several of the solvents often found in lacquer thinner penetrate latex and nitrile gloves, too, and are absorbed through the skin. One of the main reasons for using acrylics is lower toxicity and environmental harm. The other is ease of clean-up with materials of lower toxicity. You have obviated those reasons.

Ignorance is no disgrace. Willful, stubborn ignorance is.

[FrankC]

There is no such thing as an acrylic lacquer, period. Acrylics are polymers, and they don't just dry, they cure. Lacquers only dry, and can be redissolved in their original solvents.

I'm not a chemist but I do have EXTENSIVE experience as a modeler. IE I may not be book smart but I have used many types of paint (note - "used"). I have heard it referenced as being an acrylic lacquer. You probably are correct there. But whatever the correct term is you CAN thin Tamiya paint with Lacquer thinner. Tamiya sells their own "lacquer thinner" but it's very expensive. ITEM87077**500 "lacquer thinner"..

Tamiya and Gunze are properly thinned with 90% isopropyl alcohol and a few drops of acrylic retarder. That is essentially what their proprietary thinners are. They work beautifully with this. Clean up with Windex (or equivalent) and Simple Green.

Well this is where you are mistaken.. This combination of thinners will not give you the performance I am talking about. It might be ok for certain types of modeling - but what I do requires two things..

1. Ability to paint a very tight line (control)

2. Paint becomes somewhat translucent

I was enlightened to this phenomenon by a master painter named Greg Cooper (who isn't a chemist either - but is most certainly a master modeler!). When used in combination with a technique of making the finish by building up extremely thin layers of paint you can get what I consider really good results. Now I don't really care about simplicity of clean up, or smelliness (i use a paint booth). I have read that certain ingredients in some of the thinners used for acrylics are more harmful in ways than lacquer thinner (but I don't know much about that). I do know that when I was using pollyscale I found that I needed to use lacquer thinner to clean out my airbrush! Tamiya thinned with the iso alchol was super easy to clean - I agree, but I like the effect that happens to tamiya when you add lacquer thinner. This only happens when you use lacquers - I won't happen if you use the basic thinner or alcohol.

You can thin Tamiya paint with lacquer thinner and obtain results like you will never get using any other thinner! It's not a theory and I don't care if you are Sherwin Williams himself! You can google quotes and call me stupid, and suggest I'm ignorant but I wouldn't use tamiya paint if I couldn't get it to do the things it does.

"Lacquer thinner" is not a single solvent. It is a blend of solvents, one of which is usually alcohol. Others include acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, toluene, xylene, and often others—anything the manufacturer wants to put in. These other solvents (besides alcohol) are intended to dissolve the modern lacquer resins that are not soluble in the traditional lacquer solvent—alcohol. When you mix Tamiya or Gunze with lacquer thinner, you are altering or even destroying the acrylic polymer. It will never polymerize. Then, because several of the solvents in lacquer thinner dissolve styrene, you are melting it into the plastic surface.

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.†-plato

Now I take exception to being accused of being disgraceful, ignorant and stupid - so lets talk modeling results.

Here are some models painted with "tamiya"thinned with lacquer where apparently the "polymers were destroyed and will never polymerize"..

(the Fw-190 D is 1/144 - the wingspan is 2 inches.. Or that squiggle pattern on the me-262. try that with tamiya thinned with alcohol -lol)

(more in next posting)

So those are results - not theories. I have no idea if the polymers were destroyed or any of that stuff. I do know that the finish is exactly what I am looking for.

Yep - I'm calling you out..

I hope you take the time to show me some models that feature complex paint schemes painted with tamiya thinned with alcohol. It would be really good if they were yours - you loose points for showing other peoples work (I mean how do we know what they actually did?). Perhaps there is something I am missing and I might actually change techniques if I can see something that makes me think you are on to something better. But Greg Cooper's results spoke volumes to me- so lets see what you got?

or are you "just some fool how has to say something"?

Regards,

Frank

[FrankC]

more models!

[FrankC]

[Murph]

Frank,

Having talked with you extensivley about your painting techniques, I don't think you'll be able to get the level of thinning for the transluscency you want with these paints.

Regards,

Murph

[FrankC]

Thanks everyone!

Sounds like lifecolor isn't what I am looking for for overall finish.

I found other threads that suggest it drys out quickly in it's container - yikes! That's not good at $5 a bottle!

Does it brushpaint well?

[Aigore]

I´ve been using Lifecolor for a while now and I have no complaints, actually I´m going all in with Lifecolor.

I´ve been thinning with ordinary tap water and I´ve had no issues, it atomises as well as tamyia and they are matched colors. I have to clean the needle a bot more often but that I can live with.

It airbrushes well and it´s awesome to brush paint with!

[Mike C]

I have to clean the needle a bot more often but that I can live with.

Aigore, try mixing tap water with denatured alcohol as thinner for LifeColor. I find this mixture doesn't gunk up the nozzle as much.

[Aigore]

Aigore, try mixing tap water with denatured alcohol as thinner for LifeColor. I find this mixture doesn't gunk up the nozzle as much.

I´ll try that :D I have a 70% mix on bottle already.

[Mike C]

I´ll try that :D I have a 70% mix on bottle already.

Cool. I usually mix equal part denatured alcohol (called methylated spirit in my part of the world) and distilled water. Then add equal amount of paint.

[galileo1]

Just to add my 2c on the issue of mixing Tamiya paints with lacquer thinner, some of the so-called Master Modelers in the armor world such as Mike Rinaldi, Miguel Jimenez, Adam Wilder, and Rick Lawler (to name but just a few), have unequivocally stood behind this combination for years. As an armor modeler myself, and as someone who has actually tried thinning Tamiya paints with Tamiya's lacquer thinner, I can also unequivocally tell you that it CAN be done! The results are much, much better than what you get if you just use alcohol and a retardant, or Tamiya's own X20A thinner. Now, in my case, I like to use Tamiya's X20A for the simple fact that I don't like the smell and the fumes of enamels and lacquers. Of course, this is a personal choice and not one based on how the paint performs. If I were truly only looking for paint performance, I would have never switched to acrylics from enamels.

Re. Life Color, I tested them a while back and they were generally okay. You need to keep in mind, however, that the paint inside the jar is not consistent from color to color. Some colors need more thinner while others don't. Priming is also recommended (as with most acrylics) for adhesion purposes. Personally, I wasn't very impressed.

Rob

[Triarius]

As an armor modeler myself, and as someone who has actually tried thinning Tamiya paints with Tamiya's lacquer thinner, I can also unequivocally tell you that it CAN be done!

Tamiya's lacquer thinner appears to be formulated for use with their entire paint lineâ€â€not a bad move on their part. But still, beware of other brands off the shelf.

Re. Life Color, I tested them a while back and they were generally okay. You need to keep in mind, however, that the paint inside the jar is not consistent from color to color. Some colors need more thinner while others don't. Priming is also recommended (as with most acrylics) for adhesion purposes. Personally, I wasn't very impressed.

Rob

The differences in paint viscosity from color to color (or even jar to jar of the same color) are not unusual. You say priming is needed for adhesion. How do you prepare the surface for acrylics? Aaron Skinner found Lifecolor adhesion to be quite good, but that was several years ago.

[galileo1]

Tamiya's lacquer thinner appears to be formulated for use with their entire paint line—not a bad move on their part. But still, beware of other brands off the shelf.

I'd agree as I did not try any hardware-store-type lacquer thinners. Others may have tried such thinners with success but don't honestly know of anyone who has.

The differences in paint viscosity from color to color (or even jar to jar of the same color) are not unusual. You say priming is needed for adhesion. How do you prepare the surface for acrylics? Aaron Skinner found Lifecolor adhesion to be quite good, but that was several years ago.

I clean all surfaces with Windex and then rinse with distilled water. Once the parts are clean, I never again touch them with bare hands (use nitrile gloves). With Life Color I find that you not only have to get the right consistency for getting them through the airbrush but for them to also adhere better. My mixes were very thin as I like layering the pain in small increments so perhaps that's why I had issues. Don't get me wrong, the paint itself seems to cover very well and their range is second to none but the two I tried did not work well for me. If I can find a place in the U.S. that carries all the individual paints (a thing that was a huge issue when I first tried them several years ago) I may give them a try again being that I now feel much more comfortable with acrylics (when I tried Life Color I was just switching from enamels so...)

Rob

Edited July 27, 2011 by TOPGUN

[Triarius]

That's an excellent cleaning regimen. I suspect that if the adhesion has anything to do with your process, it's the very light misting coats. You may have been pushing the paint out of it's workability window.

I'd like to try them if I can find a good source. Same with Vallejo. I've got one bottle but haven't done much except test for solvent compatibility.

And yes, there is a learning curve for acrylics, and every brand is at least a little different. That situation is likely to last awhile, too. I wish Testors hadn't discontinued their military color line. Used to be great paint, though they changed the formulation in 2007 and after that it wasn't as good. And you've probably seen my opinion of MM Acryl and Testors, generally.

[galileo1]

That's an excellent cleaning regimen. I suspect that if the adhesion has anything to do with your process, it's the very light misting coats. You may have been pushing the paint out of it's workability window.

I'd like to try them if I can find a good source. Same with Vallejo. I've got one bottle but haven't done much except test for solvent compatibility.

And yes, there is a learning curve for acrylics, and every brand is at least a little different. That situation is likely to last awhile, too. I wish Testors hadn't discontinued their military color line. Used to be great paint, though they changed the formulation in 2007 and after that it wasn't as good. And you've probably seen my opinion of MM Acryl and Testors, generally.

Yep, I believe I may have simply thinned the paint too much. And yes, sourcing them in the individual jars would be great in the U.S. Last I checked I could only get the basic colors and the sets for the most part so I hoping they become readily available here.

Vallejo is pretty good. I use both Model Color and Model Air with success. Using the Glaze Medium they provide helps reduce the clogging while making the pain also flow well. With Vallejo, priming is also highly recommended (I would say even more than with Life Color). Although Vallejo itself tells you that, with Model Air, there is usually no need for priming, I still do as there have been several reports of the paint lifting, even after cleaning the surfaces properly. Vallejo sells their own primers as well (polyurethane) and they are good for the most part.

You know, it's funny how paints like Vallejo and Life Color are just now being discussed (here in the aviation side of modeling) in more depth. In the armor modeling circles, these paint lines and their performance (or lack there of) have been discussed for some years now. It's good to see that they are starting to be recognized, in some respects, in aviation modeling (especially now that it's gotten harded to get paints like Gunze Aqueous and even Tamiya).

Oh, and yes, MM Acryl sucks (for me)! I can't make the thing work no matter what I try.

Rob

Edited July 27, 2011 by TOPGUN

[FrankC]

I'd agree as I did not try any hardware-store-type lacquer thinners. Others may have tried such thinners with success but don't honestly know of anyone who has.

I use tamiya lacquer thinner to thin exclusively. I have heard you can use automotive painting lacquer - but I don't know where to get that so I'm stuck with the super expensive tamiya stuff... Gunze thinner seems to be some sort of lacquer and will also work just fine. But yea I wouldn't thin it with hardware store lacquer thinner (should have made that clear).

However, I do use the cheap thinner to clean my brush out with. It's fine for that.

I have recently gotten some mr color "leveling thinner" I hear it works really well- I'll have to see. It also smells like some sort of lacquer thinner - I guess it also has some sort of retardant in it? I don't know - but if it works - cool.

Regards,

Frank

Edited July 27, 2011 by FrankC

[FrankC]

Yep, I believe I may have simply thinned the paint too much. And yes, sourcing them in the individual jars would be great in the U.S. Last I checked I could only get the basic colors and the sets for the most part so I hoping they become readily available here.

Vallejo is pretty good. I use both Model Color and Model Air with success. Using the Glaze Medium they provide helps reduce the clogging while making the pain also flow well. With Vallejo, priming is also highly recommended (I would say even more than with Life Color). Although Vallejo itself tells you that, with Model Air, there is usually no need for priming, I still do as there have been several reports of the paint lifting, even after cleaning the surfaces properly. Vallejo sells their own primers as well (polyurethane) and they are good for the most part.

You know, it's funny how paints like Vallejo and Life Color are just now being discussed (here in the aviation side of modeling) in more depth. In the armor modeling circles, these paint lines and their performance (or lack there of) have been discussed for some years now. It's good to see that they are starting to be recognized, in some respects, in aviation modeling (especially now that it's gotten harded to get paints like Gunze Aqueous and even Tamiya).

Oh, and yes, MM Acryl sucks (for me)! I can't make the thing work no matter what I try.

Rob

I also agree mm acryl is terrible. I used it once and never bought another bottle. While thier paint sucks, I have found that paints like vallejo and pollyscale thin really well with testors acrylic thinner ironically. I stocked up on that stuff using hobby lobby 1/2 off coupons. I use that and a drop of generic flow retarder (also from hobby lobby). I typically thin about 50% to 80% for tranlucent coats and 20 % or so for base coats (except lighter colors like white, yellow or red which I put on as thick as I can) If you let it sit in the bottle for a few days - it will lay down pretty nicely and won't clog the brush as much. I'm not sure why letting it sit helps, but in my experience it does FWIW.

Frank

[galileo1]

I also agree mm acryl is terrible. I used it once and never bought another bottle. While thier paint sucks, I have found that paints like vallejo and pollyscale thin really well with testors acrylic thinner ironically. I stocked up on that stuff using hobby lobby 1/2 off coupons. I use that and a drop of generic flow retarder (also from hobby lobby). I typically thin about 50% to 80% for tranlucent coats and 20 % or so for base coats (except lighter colors like white, yellow or red which I put on as thick as I can) If you let it sit in the bottle for a few days - it will lay down pretty nicely and won't clog the brush as much. I'm not sure why letting it sit helps, but in my experience it does FWIW.

Frank

That's interesting, Frank. Never thought of trying Vallejo with MM Acryl thinner. I always use Vallejo's own thinner or distilled water. I have four bottles of the Testors' Acryl thinner just sitting there since I don't use Acryl (bought many thinking, foolishly, that I was going to switch to Acryls for good) so I'll really have to give it a try. I also have a couple of bottles each of Liquitex Flow Aid and Slow Dri but never really know which one is best for delaying the drying time. I assume it's the Slow Dri but I've heard others have success with the Flow Aid. Which one is it?

Rob

Edited July 28, 2011 by TOPGUN

[Triarius]

) If you let it sit in the bottle for a few days - it will lay down pretty nicely and won't clog the brush as much. I'm not sure why letting it sit helps, but in my experience it does FWIW.

Frank

There are two things that might be happening when you let the paint sit after thinning. One is wetting the pigment. Some pigments, especially in a reduced viscosity paint, tends to clump together. Letting it sit allows the solvent-binder to rewet the pigment particles and the clumps fall apart. The other I will call polymer relaxation. It works like this: Using a solvent blend that contains one or more solvents not compatible with the binder (polymer) causes the polymer particles to shrink, initially. Acetone and other ketones are well known for this (at least in coatings technology) especially for hydrophillic polymers like many acrylics. This probably is what you are getting when you have trouble with clogs. When the thinned paint is allowed to sit for a time, the "bad" solvents are sufficiently diluted that the "good" solvents predominate, and the polymer particles relax into their normal prepolymerized state, or close too it. Not all polymers that shrivel up like this when exposed to incompatible solvents will return to normal under any conditions. Some will get worse. Some will relax but change shape and never cure. Others will remain stable for a time, then suddenly turn to sticky goo.