1/72 Shuttle Resin

[Brian 1]

Brian, I'm wondering what price point this package will be. There are other resin SSME's & OMS engines packages available for $20(US). I hope these won't be too much more. I do understand the RCS packs are included and the package will most likely be more then $20.

There are also plenty of information and hi-rez pictures available out there that accurately show the shapes. You really should consider what others are saying and consider revisions where applicable. As Pete said, "It would be even more successful the more accurate they look."

Another thing to consider is 'scale'. Just because there is a detail on an actual real world part doesn't mean it will be seen at 1/72. I like to see as many details as possible but sometimes certain details should be left out.

I'm looking forward to seeing the newer pictures on your website. All in all the details you added look great!

Mike.

Hi Mike, if you are after something in the $20 range RSM is definately your ticket. I don't know what the final price will be but $20 won't even be close.

Brian

[MarkD]

Yes the LOL response wasn't nice. I was trying to help by giving tips to make the resin look more accurate. For example this photo of the real OMS engine/ pod shows the correct shape of the engine. http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/images/medium/2011-6028-m.jpg The kit engines are one thing, but the stuff like what you are selling or other people sell for a more realistic model should look more like the real thing. I'm sorry, but the OMS engines in the photos look too much like the kit version instead of a more accurate look of the actual shuttle. That's the only error I see with the resin parts is that one item, the rest of it looks good.

[X-Plane Fan]

To be fair to Brian, I think he did a great job on those masters, the SSME nozzles are stunning. The OMS nozzles can be a challenge to get good details of since they're partially hidden when installed on the Orbiter.

Tony

[niart17]

Great pics as always Tony. I just wish you could get in a little closer!

You're right, he did a great job. I don't think anybody came in saying "wow, these things suck". I think the criticism has been pretty civil and with good intentions of trying to help a company get things right. I mean, afterall, we are all are just builders and want to see all of these products for the shuttles as good as possible. But having said that, they are in the business of trying to sell things as the most accurate parts possible. When you make those kinds of claims, and by saying that your product is worth a price "Not even close" to the price of other similar products, well then you have to expect people are going to judge pretty tightly. And when what appears to be slight errors in shape are pointed out, going on the defensive and belittling the same modelers that are trying to help "get it right" just doesn't seem like a good business strategy. That's all. Like he said, it may show in person much better than the pics, it's hard to say. I hope they are super-duper accurate, but based on the photos so far, I'm leaning towards them not being just right.

Bill

[Brian 1]

Great pics as always Tony. I just wish you could get in a little closer!

You're right, he did a great job. I don't think anybody came in saying "wow, these things suck". I think the criticism has been pretty civil and with good intentions of trying to help a company get things right. I mean, afterall, we are all are just builders and want to see all of these products for the shuttles as good as possible. But having said that, they are in the business of trying to sell things as the most accurate parts possible. When you make those kinds of claims, and by saying that your product is worth a price "Not even close" to the price of other similar products, well then you have to expect people are going to judge pretty tightly. And when what appears to be slight errors in shape are pointed out, going on the defensive and belittling the same modelers that are trying to help "get it right" just doesn't seem like a good business strategy. That's all. Like he said, it may show in person much better than the pics, it's hard to say. I hope they are super-duper accurate, but based on the photos so far, I'm leaning towards them not being just right.

Bill

Bill, I want to be very clear with you on a couple of points. First and foremost, I have not belittled or been defensive with anyone about this set including you. My position has been clear from the start, these are the parts we are offering, we would be very happy if you bought a set, if you don't maybe next time.

As for the pricing, Mike asked for an idea and I gave him one. Again if the pricing doesn't reflect the value you expect then its your decision whether to buy them or not. I'd also like to point out that you were "judging tightly" from the get go and thats fine, but your last message doesn't convey that fact.

The bottom line is see a set for your self, decide if you want them. If you do thank you, we appreciate your business and support, if not maybe next time.

thanks for your interest

Brian

Edited August 2, 2011 by Brian 1

[niart17]

Bill, I want to be very clear with you on a couple of points. First and foremost, I have not belittled or been defensive with anyone about this set including you. My position has been clear from the start, these are the parts we are offering, we would be very happy if you bought a set, if you don't maybe next time.

As for the pricing, Mike asked for an idea and I gave him one. Again if the pricing doesn't reflect the value you expect then its your decision whether to buy them or not. I'd also like to point out that you were "judging tightly" from the get go and thats fine, but your last message doesn't convey that fact.

The bottom line is see a set for your self, decide if you want them. If you do thank you, we appreciate your business and support, if not maybe next time.

thanks for your interest

Brian

Fair enough. I realize that what we type on this innnernets thingie can be mis-read and doesn't come with voice tones and inflections. So perhaps what may have been read as be-littling may have simply been a poke in jest. I concede I may have mis-interpreted your post to MarkD. Apparently he did as well.

And yes, from the get go I was viewing your product tightly (my nature I guess), but I'm not the first person to point out potential fixes and in fact was hesitant to do so in public, hence the initial IM.

It's all good. I do wish you guys luck in your endeavour (see what I done thar?) There isn't enough good things for the shuttles on the market so I really really really hope you guys nailed this one as well as any future products you come out with.

Bill

[K2Pete]

Aw-w-w come on guys ... let's cut Fisher Models some slack ... huh?

The SSME's DO look good! Out of 100, IMHO they're still get a 93!

That RCS package DOES look good too, right? (We'll just hafta match those surface details to the rest of the Orbiter)

And we don't know if the OMS bell is the correct shape, and bearing in mind the size of 'em, those little tile details look good too, right? ... we's just be speculatin' about the proportions at this stage.

PLUS ... they're still coming out with Wheels (and Tires?) for the Nose and Main gear ... plus the cockpit ... plus the Fuel Umbilical doors and inserts, on the shuttle's belly!

Brian's been very, ver-r-ry patient with us ... and he's taken our 'sniping' with humour and tact.

If I was him, I woulda ... by now!

We should Brian! Thanx!

Pete

[MarkD]

The other stuff for the shuttle I am curious to get. The OMS engines, well we've all been over that subject regarding the shape of the nozzles. It's a minor change to the resin mold, but it looks perfect if done. There are the diagrams and photos on this thread showing what they should look like. The wheels and tire sets will be cool to get. :)

Hmm, will there be a little "arrowhead" RCC piece for the ET forward attach point? Also what about a new SILTS pod for Columbia? Last I heard of the SILTS was years ago by another company. It was for the Revell kit and not the Monogram shuttle. Maybe even an OBSS set to compliment the RSM payloadbay set.

[stevenichols]

Mom always said do not criticize unless you can do better yourself. Brian did a great job of producing these detail sets, and I know how difficult casting thin walled pieces can be. The initial reactions from some members were far from positive, something that would make some people not want to continue, but he hung in there.

[wwesley3]

When can I order your sets? Now I can dump my CE sets on Ebay.

Bill

[Brian 1]

When can I order your sets? Now I can dump my CE sets on Ebay.

Bill

Hi Bill, Thanks for the interest, as far as I know they will be up next week for sale.

brian

[Brian 1]

Fair enough. I realize that what we type on this innnernets thingie can be mis-read and doesn't come with voice tones and inflections. So perhaps what may have been read as be-littling may have simply been a poke in jest. I concede I may have mis-interpreted your post to MarkD. Apparently he did as well.

And yes, from the get go I was viewing your product tightly (my nature I guess), but I'm not the first person to point out potential fixes and in fact was hesitant to do so in public, hence the initial IM.

It's all good. I do wish you guys luck in your endeavour (see what I done thar?) There isn't enough good things for the shuttles on the market so I really really really hope you guys nailed this one as well as any future products you come out with.

Bill

Aw-w-w come on guys ... let's cut Fisher Models some slack ... huh?

The SSME's DO look good! Out of 100, IMHO they're still get a 93!

That RCS package DOES look good too, right? (We'll just hafta match those surface details to the rest of the Orbiter)

And we don't know if the OMS bell is the correct shape, and bearing in mind the size of 'em, those little tile details look good too, right? ... we's just be speculatin' about the proportions at this stage.

PLUS ... they're still coming out with Wheels (and Tires?) for the Nose and Main gear ... plus the cockpit ... plus the Fuel Umbilical doors and inserts, on the shuttle's belly!

Brian's been very, ver-r-ry patient with us ... and he's taken our 'sniping' with humour and tact.

If I was him, I woulda ... by now!

We should Brian! Thanx!

Pete

Mom always said do not criticize unless you can do better yourself. Brian did a great job of producing these detail sets, and I know how difficult casting thin walled pieces can be. The initial reactions from some members were far from positive, something that would make some people not want to continue, but he hung in there.

Thanks for the responses guys, we hope to see our parts on your kits....and yes Pete, you can buy me a beer! LOL

see ya

Brian

[MarkD]

When it comes to aftermarket stuff to add to model kits, the point of those is to make the model to look more like the real thing.

[babyduck5]

The problem is that he didn't ask the modeling forum for their collective opinion. He posted pics of his new product to promote the upcoming release, not to have you nit-pick the details. Again his company, his perogative. The problem is that those were your opinions, based on your interpretation of your current resource materials. And we all know that opinion are like....so maybe next time you should consider not giving opinion unless someone asks, "hey, what do you think of this..." But then again, thats just my opinion :)

Jim

[niart17]

So, just so I understand, whenever you see a movie trailer, or a new car in a magazine, or see screen shots from the latest shoot-em-up game you NEVER say negative things to your friends or on a forum or anything like that? From you it's always, "hey, I can't make a movie, or I can't make a car... I can't program a video game, so I'm glad someone is doing it?" And these comments here weren't really negative, just constructive criticism. I think he handled it really well, and for the most part I think he understood that we were trying to be helpful. It is after all a discussion forum so things get discussed. In his defense, he said he didn't know if this was the correct place for his announcement, BUT if it's placed in a discussion forum, you have to expect discussions about it. (novel concept, I understand)Those discussions can be positive, negative or indifferent. I think he has thick enough skin to realize that, and took it for what it was. But to come in here and start throwing names around about people (not pieces of resin) who were really trying to help (right or wrong) is pretty petty if you ask me (which you didn't, I get that) But that's just my opinion.

Brian, I really do hope the best for these products. I do feel you guys have done a good job and I hope more good things to come.

Bill

Edited August 10, 2011 by niart17

[MiG31]

The problem is that he didn't ask the modeling forum for their collective opinion. He posted pics of his new product to promote the upcoming release, not to have you nit-pick the details.

Then he shouldn't have posted photos of the products. People are going to pick them apart, especially if there are egregious issues of accuracy and/or quality. In this case, the accuracy of the parts is in question.

The problem is that those were your opinions, based on your interpretation of your current resource materials. And we all know that opinion are like....

And they are informed opinions using visual references of the real articles. If a scale reproduction doesn't match the 1:1 piece, it's going to be noticed. The thickness of the bells; the coarseness of the interior piping, etc.

One lesson to be had from this is to ask for feedback while developing parts. There are many, many people willing to offer a helping hand to make things look right.

[Jay Chladek]

Before I begin, I am going to spell out what my involvement is with Fisher on these. I was asked a few weeks ago if I could help advise them on their products since it has been documented that I am the "go to" guy on shuttle modeling. I don't claim to know everything about shuttle, especially since I don't work with them and I live 1500 miles away from KSC. But I have collected a lot of the data on shuttle of course, which many of you know. Now, being an advisor means that I advise, but it does NOT mean that I am in direct line of production as a quality control inspector might be. Advice can be taken, advice can be ignored. It is a give and take relationship here as my considerations must be factored in with others. I must say though that it has been a joy to work with Fisher as my input into their products has been considered quite well by the people that are working on them. They have other advisors as well, including people who have worked on the stuff for NASA. I personally think they should be applauded for sticking their necks out on the line and going into an aspect of the hobby that very few have done before.

As Brian has said though, there are other considerations at work here. The part can be made as technically accurate as possible, but if the resulting shape ends up killing molds after two or three pulls, it isn't going to do much good for a company trying to make money off of a product (it is different when you are doing a short run of parts for just your own model). These are many of the same concerns that a styrene company has to consider when producing a kit. And you have to keep things filtered down to a certain select few people or the old addage "too many cooks spoil the broth" comes true.

Okay, given that I am in the loop on the things Fisher are doing, I've been given approval to post some photos of some parts modifications made today because Paul and Brian wanted ME, little ole ME to give this project a go for launch if I liked what I saw with the modifications. I have the first run resin shots in my possession and gave them a full looking over and sent them my constructive critiques, which in turn resulted in the modifications you see. I have to say, I am blown away that Paul Fisher actually managed to implement them so quickly based on the images I sent. Brian did the original masters and considering how much it costs to make these with the capabilities they have, if mods can be done without having to burn a new master pattern, so much the better. So here we are. And yes, I am putting my neck on the line. So I gave my approval and after a little bit of work is finalized on the SSMEs and some test pulls are made on the OMS motors, here is what you will likely see on these new parts from Fisher.

First up is the main engine bell:

I recommended a groove be cut into the back to separate the pipe from the bell. While it is a bit thick, it improves the looks of the bell quite a bit when viewed from the rear.

Secondly, another short segment is being added to the front of the bell. This helps improve the shape at the front and should make it easier to add the bell to the styrene parts on both the Revell and Monogram shuttles. Some pipe work will be added to the extension to blend it in with the rest of the bell. Based on what I can see, these main engine bells look AWSOME otherwise. The internal detail is the best you are going to find anywhere (to me it doesn't look overscale at all) and the exterior features look good too. I can fully understand why the channels are flashed onto the bell and not separate as this causes Realspace's molds to get beat to hell rather quickly on their mold pulls (and if you put a dark wash here, nobody is going to be able to tell if the pipes are molded on or raised above). While I think Realspace's bells might be a little more technically accurate to flight articles in some regards externally, the sets I see here look good enough for me to use on an in-flight orbiter displayed horizontally while the Realspace bells I would be more inclined to use on a launch stack shuttle (where the SSMEs are at the bottom of the model and not as easy to see).

Now for the bit a few of you have been griping about, the OMS engine bell shape:

It took a few tries grinding these down on the lathe for Paul to get the shape closer and that was based on some sketches I sent to him for how the "liposuction" on the bells might be carried out. I like the results quite a bit. As for the engine bell lengths, while I don't have the full numbers (because NASA to my knowledge hasn't posted all the measurements on those, probably due to ITAR but even going back to the first press guides from the 1980s), I know they should extend only a little past the RCS pods on the back of the OMS pods and my test fits show that these indeed do. Some may still quibble about the shape. But these bells are more accurate than the Realspace ones and certainly more accurate than the Cutting Edge ones. If you think you can produce a better one, go for it; produce it, sell it, I'll be happy to buy it. Until such a time, I'll go with these.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Jay Chladek

[crowe-t]

WOW, Jay these parts look incredible! The groove added to the back of the SSME gives the allusion that the bell is thinner.

Great idea.

In an earlier post I thought the SSME's didn't seem to have enough cone shape to them. Yet the SSME in the picture Brian posted, resting on the blue hobby knife, looked to have the correct shape. I'm sure it was the macro pictures as Brian stated because they look perfect in shape. Adding the extra segment really improved the overall shape too.

It appears the stubby look of the OMS engines was more of a 'chubby' look and seeing the before and after picture you posted proves that. They just needed to be slimmed down a bit. The length looks good now and the shape is dead on or as close as I've seen.

Jay, Fisher really did their homework on these and, I for one, am glad they asked you for input. You know more about the shuttle then I'll ever know. Thanks for posting these pictures.

I'll be using these on my 1/72 stack, for sure. :D

Edited August 12, 2011 by crowe-t

[niart17]

Thanks for the update and preview Jay. I'm glad they weren't too far in to production to take a look at them and improve them. I might should apologize for possibly pushing the issue too much beyond the first suggestions, but I honestly was trying to be helpful as I'm sure most everyone else here was. From the sound of the Brians first response it was too late to make any corrections. I'm very happy to see that it wasn't and they've seemed to really improve their product. I think in the long run their willlingness to listen will pay off and people will be even more willing to pay for their stuff. Awesome job guys!

I think this is one of the best things about forums such as this. While it's true the information and help you get on such sites might not always be correct or even helpful. Sometimes it may come in a form that doesn't sound too pleasant even if the information is correct. But the bottom line is, it CAN be helpful.

Is it group hug time? (gosh I hope not, I forgot to put deordorant one this morning)

Bill

[K2Pete]

Alrighy-y then!

Thanx a lot Jay for the review / preview and the better photos. Now a good, informed decision can be made regarding those niggly little detail issues.

As Bill ( niart7 ) said, the critiques offered weren't intended to put down Brian or Fisher, but to suggest improvement in the parts. We've all built a Shuttle model ... or 6, and we know what we're looking for. I, for one, wasn't comparing the look of the parts to the kit's parts, but to what else was offered in the aftermarket.

From my POV, I'm thrilled to read that Fisher took these suggestions and actually made the effort to improve the parts. From your profile shot of the OMS bells, Jay, the new one does look to be a better proportion, assuming the new one is on the right side ...

My hat's off to you Brian! ( You deserve a pat on the back for taking our 'griping' and 'whining' as constructive criticism [ ... however, I would've loved to be a fly on the wall while you were discussing some of our posts! ] ) Thanx for the effort, and the parts. They look good!

and ... uh, yup, I'll be buying at least one set! I've got 5 kits waiting to be built ...

Are you still developing the other parts too? Cockpit, Wheels and tires and Fuel Umbilicals?

Pete

[Jay Chladek]

Those bits are still in development. I believe the tires are on track next and the umbilicals. There are other projects they are working on as well, so it may be a bit before work begins on the big items (such as the cockpit).

[niart17]

Hey Jay, I know they said the bells won't be available separate from the RCS pods and that's understandable. BUT man if they would offer the bells separate I think they would open their market a little wider since it would be easier to sell them to the Monogram builders as well. I don't know if I'll buy any aftermarket for my builds at this time so I'm probable speaking out of turn (wouldn't be the first time) but for me to consider buying these for a Monogram stack over say Realspace, I'd not want to pay extra for the RCS pods and not use them or have to do major surgery to use them. That is unless the pricing is not much higher than without them, in that case I'd be all over it.

Bill

[MarkD]

Those look cool. Yeah the OMS engine you trimmed down looks very close to the real thing. :)

Will there be the Forward RCS made as well?

[Jay Chladek]

Nope, no foreward RCS at all (gotta use old fashioned modeling skill on that area). As for the sets and the pricing, Fisher has it pretty well established what they are going to offer in the set and they are offering what you see here in one package. They aren't going to break the set up. Considering the alternatives, I consider these money well spent when one factors the amount of work that went into their design and the resulting quality of the pieces.

[niart17]

Oh well, It doesn't hurt to ask. I agree that if you're building the Revell kit, the whole set is the way to go and probably worth the money (depending on what they are asking) and those RCS pods look really good and probably worth the extra. But I have a feeling most people building the Monogram stack might pass on it and opt for another set. But that's fine I'm sure Fishers other sets might make up for that.

Bill