B-25J question

[Neo]

Hi Guys

my current build of a 1/48 B-25 "That's all brother" is mooving along but ive come up with this puzzel ...

In this pic(and some others) you can see a round exhaust sticking out of the side of the coaling.

The questions are:

-Is this only on restored Birds?

-If not is there one on both side of the coaling?

-Also is there a anti glare on the inside of NMF B-25?

Thanks for all your help

Cheers

Neo

[Kostucha]

If you find a picture of a Mitchell with that round exhaust on the side (exactly like the one on the Mitchell trainer I did for the school), there is an identical one, same location (port side of the nacelle) on the other engine as well. Further to that, the "Bumps" on the cowling are covered over near the round exhaust, not going completely around it.

As for what birds have this exhaust and which ones dont, you've got me on that one.

Mark.

[DonSS3]

I think that exhaust layout was a postwar mod, or it may even have been a civilian mod, done when/if the aircraft was converted to civil use (ie, firebomber?) I've read that the short exhaust stacks that were used prior to this were incredibly loud. I have no idea of the history of the pictured aircraft so I may be totally out to lunch here…

[Steve N]

The exhaust stacks in the photo were part of the "Hayes Modification Program," which most of the Mitchells still active with the USAF were put through in the 1950s (this also usually included the large, square carberator intake seen on most warbird B-25s.) The upper single stacks were replaced with a collector ring, exiting on the outboard side, to cut down on the exhaust noise. Most civil B-25s operating in the postwar years had various exhaust mods done for the same reason. On wartime B-25s, the individual stacks were introduced on the C/D, and continued through the end of production. So the bottom line is: on a wartime B-25J you would only see the individual stacks. On a postwar Mitchell with a collector ring mod, you would only see the exhaust pipe on the outboard side of the engine nacelle.

SN

[Shawn M]

^ thats what I came in to post as well.

[Bigasshammm]

As for question 2 they were identical to B-17s of the time. Either had an anti-glare panel or the entire cowling was painted a flat color.

[Neo]

The exhaust stacks in the photo were part of the "Hayes Modification Program," which most of the Mitchells still active with the USAF were put through in the 1950s (this also usually included the large, square carberator intake seen on most warbird B-25s.) The upper single stacks were replaced with a collector ring, exiting on the outboard side, to cut down on the exhaust noise. Most civil B-25s operating in the postwar years had various exhaust mods done for the same reason. On wartime B-25s, the individual stacks were introduced on the C/D, and continued through the end of production. So the bottom line is: on a wartime B-25J you would only see the individual stacks. On a postwar Mitchell with a collector ring mod, you would only see the exhaust pipe on the outboard side of the engine nacelle.

SN

Thanks allot for the intel

so i shall leave them OOB.

As for question 2 they were identical to B-17s of the time. Either had an anti-glare panel or the entire cowling was painted a flat color.

Anyone have a pic of this ?? That's also what i tough to paint OD green but cant find any ref on that

Neo

Edited August 11, 2011 by Neo

[Bigasshammm]

BOOM

That even looks like a period photo and you can see the anti-glare on the port engine and the demarcation line on starboard.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Bigasshammm

[Neo]

thanks Ham

[DonSS3]

BOOM

That even looks like a period photo and you can see the anti-glare on the port engine and the demarcation line on starboard.

That is one of my favorite B-25 photos of all time. I don't know why, it just calls to me.

[Steve N]

It's not particularly relevant to the original question, but notice also that the restored B-25 in the photo has a Martin upper turret, rather than the original Bendix. Many warbird B-25s are restored with Martin turrets..most people wouldn't notice the difference, and I understand the Martins are a lot easier to find than the Bendix (the Martin turret also doesn't take up nearly as much space inside the plane as the Bendix.)

SN

[Bigasshammm]

That is one of my favorite B-25 photos of all time. I don't know why, it just calls to me.

It's a hell of a photo!

[Neo]

weah i love this pic it my destop backgroud(in hi res) that is the B-25 i wanted to build but never found any decals for it so im gona have to be satisfied with a half naked chick nose art instead :P

Edited August 11, 2011 by Neo

[B-17 guy]

The exhaust stacks in the photo were part of the "Hayes Modification Program," which most of the Mitchells still active with the USAF were put through in the 1950s (this also usually included the large, square carberator intake seen on most warbird B-25s.) The upper single stacks were replaced with a collector ring, exiting on the outboard side, to cut down on the exhaust noise. Most civil B-25s operating in the postwar years had various exhaust mods done for the same reason. On wartime B-25s, the individual stacks were introduced on the C/D, and continued through the end of production. So the bottom line is: on a wartime B-25J you would only see the individual stacks. On a postwar Mitchell with a collector ring mod, you would only see the exhaust pipe on the outboard side of the engine nacelle.

SN

I thank you for this post as well, I honestly did not know that. I've seen numerous B-25's at the airshows, and seen many pics of them from the war, and I never put that together. Now that I know this, I see the difference in the pics from during the war to postwar.

[phantom]

Most of the Canadian B-25s got that mod. Once they were retired most were bought by Americans and repainted in your colours.

Therefore you could be looking at an X-US X-Canadian restored bird.

[Steve N]

Like the Yankee Air Museum B-25D. She flew combat with the USAAF in Italy, then flew with the RCAF in the '50s, then went through a few private owners before being acquired by the museum. While not quite the Hayes mod, you can see her exhausts were modified at some point..whether this was done during her RCAF service or after she passed into civil ownership I don't know. I couldn't find any pics of her online in her RCAF colors.

This was what she looked like while flying combat (the name is "Ellen & Son")..

And this is her today, as "Yankee Warrior"..

SN

Edited August 12, 2011 by Steve N

[DonSS3]

You might find some useful shots here. These are photos I took of the aircraft based at the Air Museum in Reading, Pennsylvania. They include some exhaust details of the original (Clayton exhaust?) system:

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/DDonSS3/B-25J%20Walkaround/

[redwoodmodels]

I heard that they had problems with exhausts cracking or something. I'm not sure if that's true.

But I did come across this picture of a TB-25J, and it looks like it has the same exhaust configuration as the one in the original picture.

http://www.aero-web.org/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=18330

[Steve N]

Yep..that one's definiately been through the Hayes Modification program. You can barely make out the taller carb intake on the right engine. I'm not sure what else the program entailed, but I believe it also included the removal of all armament and related systems, including fairing over the tailcone and putting a pair of jumpseats where the upper turret used to be.

I noticed the difference in exhausts and carb intakes back in the 70s, when comparing magazine photos of restored warbirds to wartime photos. I learned about the Hayes Modifications while talking to Col (Ret.) Glenn Lamont back in 1990, when he was "barnstorming" with his freshly-restored B-25J selling rides. I paid 100 bucks to ride in one of the jumpseats behind the flight deck (he was charging 80 to ride in the waist, 125 for the nose, and 150 for the right seat.) These days I don't think you can touch a B-25 ride for less than 300!

Col. Lamont's B-25 was called "Guardian of Freedom." I took this pic in October of 1990 when he stopped in Battle Creek for a few days. The plane had actually sat abandoned at the same airport from about 1960 to 1974, when Lamont purchased it (at the time, he owned the B-25D now flown by the Yankee Air Museum.) Last I heard "Guardian of Freedom" was based on the West Coast, owned by the same guy who owns the B-17 "Fuddy Duddy" (which, ironically, I've also flown in.)

SN

Edited August 13, 2011 by Steve N

[DarylH]

Great pic Steve of the larger carb scoop.

[Hugh]

Yep..that one's definiately been through the Hayes Modification program. You can barely make out the taller carb intake on the right engine. I'm not sure what else the program entailed, but I believe it also included the removal of all armament and related systems, including fairing over the tailcone and putting a pair of jumpseats where the upper turret used to be.

I noticed the difference in exhausts and carb intakes back in the 70s, when comparing magazine photos of restored warbirds to wartime photos. I learned about the Hayes Modifications while talking to Col (Ret.) Glenn Lamont back in 1990, when he was "barnstorming" with his freshly-restored B-25J selling rides. I paid 100 bucks to ride in one of the jumpseats behind the flight deck (he was charging 80 to ride in the waist, 125 for the nose, and 150 for the right seat.) These days I don't think you can touch a B-25 ride for less than 300!

Col. Lamont's B-25 was called "Guardian of Freedom." I took this pic in October of 1990 when he stopped in Battle Creek for a few days. The plane had actually sat abandoned at the same airport from about 1960 to 1974, when Lamont purchased it (at the time, he owned the B-25D now flown by the Yankee Air Museum.) Last I heard "Guardian of Freedom" was based on the West Coast, owned by the same guy who owns the B-17 "Fuddy Duddy" (which, ironically, I've also flown in.)

SN

Steve N - GREAT photo of Glenn Lamont's "Guardian of Freedom". I too flew with him (Canton Ohio) in June 1990. I had the bombardier's seat....awesome. It was my first warbird ride. I had a video camera - took video before, during and after the flight. What a great photo.... Thanks for sharing and bringing back a GREAT memory.

Hugh Harrington

Edited March 6, 2012 by Hugh

[Phil marchese]

I dsproved the Ellen And Son j/ jocker relationsip to the YAF D2 over 25 years ago in correspondence with the now deceased Bill State and Todd who is still active with the plane. All in common was the call sign on the tail... maybe 8C. It was lon ago.