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New Aftermarket Resin Technology


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This doesn't have much to do with helo modeling but I know a few guys that run aftermarket resin outfits frequent this site so I figured I'd post this here.

I just came across this company:

http://www.live-resin.com/

They offer a most impressive range of modern US weapons and other items. The resin detail is absolutely amazing, some of the best details I've seen. They claim they use "3D modeling and rapid prototyping" to achieve this. What exactly does this mean? I'm not up on current technology, I thought resin parts were produced by scratch-building a master and then pouring multiple retail copies from the molds.

I'm just curious if this is the future of aftermarket resin or does it have additional drawbacks or is so expensive it just isn't practical to use?

John

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3D printing of masters has been around for at least 4-5 years now. The quality improved a lot since then and the price has dropped. 90% of aftermarket wheels available in resin were made using 3D printing. Hussar wheels is one of them. Here is a sample of their work. I ordered those from Hussar for my upcoming 1/35 Zu-23-2 and ZPU-4 guns. Took them 3 weeks from start to finish.

th_081007203150_ZPU-4-A.jpg

th_ZU-23-Awheels.jpg

th_ZPU-4master4.jpg

th_IMG_1086.jpg

th_IMG_1138.jpg

It is still not the cheapest way to make masters, but is much more precise and accurate then you can make with your hands.

Live resin found their niche in small arms, which is great! I would buy several sets from them.

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These guys are from some Eastern European Country or Russia. They have the same technology that we have in the US. The difference is they work for a lot less money. As with any modeling concern they will go where the money is best and in an area where they will be unchallenged. The weapons for 1/35th scale figures and armor modeling is wide open and has huge appeal. In order to get what they have, they need access to very accurate measurements and photos. Just as Andy said, the more precise the measurement the better the end product. CAD is CAD, no matter where you are. That's no big deal. The big deal is the master. The best and latest prototyping forms masters by directing lasers into "pools" of resins that react and solidify as the CAD design directs the beam. These types of rapid prototypers have a huge advantage over the previous generations which cut the master from a solid block of material. This left very small lines in the finished master, very similar to what you get with print a part technology. Those tiny lines can't be on the surface of your master, you spend hours trying to get rid of them. This technology is here in the USA but the investment in design time and then the cost to run the design through the production cycle makes it an ineffective tool for small modeling concerns. The cost is huge and the return is very risky. The companies that do this type of work generally handle contracts that are in the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. Getting them to even consider this type of thing in the USA is almost nonexistent. One of the best known master pattern makers I know works for a such a company. He assured me when we talked about this that his company would politely shoo away people with these small end jobs. They make LOADS more with big time projects.

The CAD designs used in making metal molds for injected kits is pretty much the same as for this resin stuff. It runs milling machines to cut the steel molds needed for injection molding, for the resin stuff is runs the lasers solidifying the resins in the pools. The pools eliminated the "lines" left on the solid pieces of older technology. That's why these resin parts look as good as injection molded parts.

Chris M

Edited by Chief Snake
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Helo to all

I just wanted to ad that 3D printing is a technology in constant move. Same as 2D printing in fact.

Prototypes were in the past, and still are on old machines, not very precise.

That means you can see layers of material on the prototypes.

recent technology, widely used today, give a resolution of 0.15 mm, (so about 200 DPI in comparison).

higher technology are available : resolution of 0,001 is possible on some very rare machines (about 25000 DPI)

these kind of machines are called Micro 3D printers or ultra micro 3D printers or micro lithography.

there are in the market a few machines with a layer size of about 0,01 mm (about 2500 DPI)where the layers are realy hard to see. However, the operating size of these machines are generaly under 200 mm (8") or less and are used to design jewels or microtechnology.

You can imagine that small arms are just adapted to these technologies, as wheels, some resin details, etc...

It will be a different question with my Mi-6...

Norbert

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However, the operating size of these machines are generaly under 200 mm (8") or less and are used to design jewels or microtechnology.

You can imagine that small arms are just adapted to these technologies, as wheels, some resin details, etc...

It will be a different question with my Mi-6...

Norbert

Very interesting... So it sounds like we won't be seeing full size resin kits with this level of detail due to the size limitation.

How expensive are these machines?

Thanks for the replies from all the resin experts.

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Very interesting... So it sounds like we won't be seeing full size resin kits with this level of detail due to the size limitation.

How expensive are these machines?

Thanks for the replies from all the resin experts.

These technologies are very expensive. As Norbert mentions the type of applications where they are being used collect very high prices when offered on the market. Jewels and micro technologies require very precise non-failing manufacture or refining systems and that contributes to the high end pricing of the finished items. There are less costly approaches that work extremely well in certain fields, like injection molding. Sales of injection molded kits of attractive nature generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in income. Injection molding in styrene is much cheaper than casting in resin. Injection molding is automated, resin casting for the most part is manual labor except in the larger prototyping firms where they have adapted technology to do mutli piece resin casting in a production line.There are some specialty resin casters who can do this but the cost creates a problem for low end users. Getting crossover quality would be great and the people that step up to do it are going to go in the direction that nets them the most money for their effort. While others of us would be willing to operate at less income level to put out specialty products, many of us are not able access the technology to make master parts at a reasonable price.

Chris M

Edited by Chief Snake
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many of us are not able access the technology to make master parts at a reasonable price.

Reasonably sophisticated and affordable 3D prototyping services are available from many different service companies such as Shapeways, Cloudfabs, etc. I personally know two folks who get their railroad hobby product masters produced by such companies and sell resin copies.

I am currently working on a new line of detail parts and accessories that will be designed and produced this way.

http://www.shapeways.com

http://www.cloudfabs.com

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Reasonably sophisticated and affordable 3D prototyping services are available from many different service companies such as Shapeways, Cloudfabs, etc. I personally know two folks who get their railroad hobby product masters produced by such companies and sell resin copies.

I am currently working on a new line of detail parts and accessories that will be designed and produced this way.

http://www.shapeways.com

http://www.cloudfabs.com

Good luck on your business (same goes to all the aftermarket guys who posted here).

Any info you can share on what you will be offering?

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There are several resin kits over on the Sci-Fi side of the hobby that are made from 3D masters. It's actually getting more and more commonplace to do most of the work digitally and then "grow" the masters, which still require some degree of clean-up and final detailing. A small kit like a 1/72 fighter costs into the hundreds of dollars to have printed, and the cost rises astronomically as you go bigger. That's just the cost of printing; the cost to develop the digital 3D files is another whole issue. But you have to remember that just because a kit is mastered using 3D CAD it doesn't necessarily mean the end product will be a perfect replica of the real thing.

edited to fix my horrendous spelling

Edited by Joseph Osborn
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Amen to what Joseph is saying. The Live-Resin guys are using the top end stuff, multi-laser/pooled resin prototyping and tooling. And if you look carefully at the suggested companies for 3D prototyping, one is not offering a tooled product only 3D design. Cloudfab is 3D printing and appears to offer a tooled product but this again is layered tooling which leaves something to be smoothed off before using as a master unless they have some sort of miracle micro printer.. And they have a limitation in size measured in centimeters, 48X48X58.

Chris M

Edited by Chief Snake
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Look really carefully at the companies I suggested, and you will see both companies basically provide a 3D-printing service where you can upload a design and get it 3D-printed in one of the various technologies and materials they provide. They also provide a marketplace where you can choose to offer your designs for sale through them, where anyone can order a printed copy of a design you uploaded, and you get part of the revenue.

If you want to see examples, their forums are full of examples printed through their services:

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=34100&

The figurine in the post above was later cast in resin and offered for sale through the poster's business:

http://www.rivetwars.com/images/for_sale/vert_tank_55.jpg

http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=6379&start=0&

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/kampfflieger?sg85287%5Bpage%5D=2#sg85287

I am not merely posting a link to companies I read about, I used the services of Shapeways several times and received excellent-quality finished prototype parts from them (not for scale modeling purposes). They have several different types of machinery with different precision levels, and many different types of materials. While not quite at the level of precision that Live-Resin uses, their high-end process and materials are definitely good enough to be used for scale masters.

Whatever technology Live-Resin uses must certainly be available from an online service, too. I simply don't see any small scale model accessories vendor investing in a $100K+ SLS machine, so logic dictates that they are using someone else's service bureau, just like Mark does.

Edited by KursadA
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You are right, I didn't find that.I am glad you did. But as a resin caster and business man I can tell you their product leaves me with practically the same man hours cleaning off the print lines as if I did it myself the traditional way. The print lines are there, I see them, you can not miss them. In the scale aircraft detailing world that kind of product would get trashed quickly. You can not have those print lines running through the instrument panel of a set, can you? Can you imagine a helicopter transmission with all those lines embedded in it? What ever product you got that you were pleased with wasn't used for modeling, you say it yourself. Since we can't see what you got it's impossible for me to agree that what you received would be up to the standard I need in my products. The standards of finish vary greatly with the users expectation. Those little men or whatever they are may be at the accepted standard for those folks who model those subjects. That finish is unacceptable as a standard for my products.

And SLS was not something I remembered, only the method I saw. Yes, there are vendors who provide this service as I have investigated this myself. The problem remains that getting the 3D CAD done cost quite a bit of money (there are different standards of this) and then getting the part molded was an additional very costly sum. And those vendors I talked to about it had minimum dollar requirements. Not something I could afford, I guarantee you that! As with everything, you get what you can pay for.

I agree that the guys in Europe probably are moonlighting on someone else's equipment. Over there idle time that can be turned into money buys a service that might usually be out of reach. The economic situation in Europe has people working for less than their counterparts in other places in the world. So, a bit of genius, the right offer of money to the otherwise idle manufacturer is getting them access we would find very difficult to compete with. The USA vendors have minimum dollar investments in the jobs they take on and that is out of reach to small endline users like me.

Chris M

Edited by Chief Snake
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