Helidriver Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Let me explain our situation: We moved into an apartment (top floor of a house, landlords living downstairs) in March of 09. No lease or contract of any kind was signed, although we were promised one during the initial negotiations. We agreed on 1700USD a month, with a one month security deposit, and one month notice before moving out. The landlords are an elderly Italian couple, with poor English skills. They have a tendency to "pretend" to be older than they are, and will blame stuff on their age. Example being taking our mail. All our coupons disappear, and our bills will show up in our mailbox up to a week late, if ever. There have also been a lot of noise from downstairs, including family feuds ending up with them calling the cops on each other, as well as their children. We have finally had enough, and gave them our one month notice on the 15th of this month, to be out by the 15th of Nov. We were then asked if we had paid a security deposit, which to me rings alarm bells that they might not want to pay us back, and will blame their age...saying that they can't remember us having provided the deposit in the first place. We have started packing and moving out, and as such the apartment is a bit of a mess right now. We have two doors to our place, one downstairs door to the stairs and another at the top of the stairs. These are BOTH kept locked, always. We also have a dog. Yesterday a person with a 5-6 year old kid in tow knocked on the UPSTAIRS door, wanting to see the apartment. I looked down the stairs and the landlords were standing at the foot of the stairs, but ran out as soon as they saw me. I showed the person the apartment, and after this he started to argue with me over price. I explained to him that I don't set the price, he needed to talk to the landlords downstairs. He then expressed surprise, as they had let him up the stairs to talk to me...indicating I was the one owning the apartment. After he left I walked downstairs to ask the landlords to please not send people up like that with no notice. I was then told that I had nothing to worry about, as they would never send anyone up there. I was then told that it was their mission to rent that apartment out as soon as possible, and would show it to anyone that asked. I expressed concern over this, as the apartment isn't in the best location, and the sign in the window might attract some unwanted attention. I also explained that I have a dog, and that if someone the dog doesn't know enters the apartment she might bite. I was then told that they (the landlords) didn't worry, as they trust everyone, and we should stop being scared. They again stated that they would show the apartment to anyone that asked, and that they need the apartment rented out immediately. We then offered to be out by this weekend, but they say we need to stay, as they need our money. We now feel like we can't leave the apartment, since we can't trust the landlords to not let anyone up here. They will let them up unattended, even if no one is home. (they had no idea that I was home when they let the first person in) So, my question is: Given this situation, are we within our rights to move out immediately? If we move out now, due to the situation with the landlords, are we still obligated to pay for half the month of November? And will we have the right to get our security deposit back? Ken Quote Link to post Share on other sites
deadmeat Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Seems to me that as a landlord they have certain obligations. As long as you are a tennant they can't let anyone in without prior notice. However, with absolutely nothing signed (BIG MISTAKE) all bets are off. I would say that you could leave whenever you want, but you have probably seen the last of the secutiry deposit no matter what you do. Your first obligation is to you and your family. Do what you have to. They aren't doing their part to see to the secutiry of your family and property and are placing others at risk by ignoring your dog. If you had a signed lease I would say follow the lease even if they don't. However, like I said...no paperwork, no problem. Also, to the question of wether you paid a security deposit, hopefully you paid with a check and placed a note in the memo field. If so, so to your bank and see if they have a scan on file. Most banks are doing that now. If you paid with cash and didn't get or keep the recepit...well...lesson learned. Edited October 19, 2011 by deadmeat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 UMM...WOW. I'd guess without a signed contract, it's only your word against theirs. I imagine they have no legal leg keeping you there since legally you aren't leasing it. But at the same time you have no legal leg getting your deposit back so you both pretty much screwed each other by not having a lease agreement in writing. I'd suggest, if you can afford it to write off the deposit and just leave. You could try to get the deposit back but it sounds like they will fight it and you'd have to bring them to court which may or may not be worth it. You could just tell them the if they don't want to give the deposit back that it will cover the rest of the month, that should solve any claims they want to make against you. Chalk it up to experience and be sure to have a clear and understandable agreement IN WRITING next time. That's just my 2 cents. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ross blackford Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 :D, I'm not sure of the legalities where you live Ken but I'd imagine they'd be pretty similar to what they are here in Australia. If no lease was ever signed and the landlords are doing this sort of thing I think you're within your rights to leave as and when you decide to. Over here any security bond is paid to the Rental Bond Board, not the landlord and that's one difference. If the apartment is in good order when inspected after you leave you get your bond back. If not the bond goes to the landlord for repairs/cleaning etc. I'd think that as no lease was ever signed they wouldn't have anything on you nor any leg to stand on legally if you just up and left tonight as there is no proof that you ever even lived there, unless they have been giving you receipts for the rent and they would undoubtedly keep copies of those. But then again maybe not as it would actually be classed as income and they would likely be taxed on it if receipts are held in duplicate. It's always wise to insist on signing a lease before you move in, this protects both the tenant and landlord from unscrupulous behaviour on the part of the other party. If they continue to give you a hard time and you have receipts you could simply say "well, we have these on you so we're going tonight, what are you gonna to do about it?" Maybe not the best way to part company but if they are as unscrupulous as you say you may not have many other choices. You could also say (if you have rent receipts) "Well, we have rent receipts and we could show those receipts to Internal Revenue, so what do you say now?" , Ross Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CorsairMan Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Assuming you are residing in one of the United States - the fact there was no rental agreement was really dumb on the part of the landlord as all of your rights will fall under the applicable local landlord/tenant act. Here the act is very much on the side of the tenant in most instances. I am sure your local state government has a website where all stature rights of tenants are clearly laid out as well as a number to call if you have questions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MHaz Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Having done the landlord gig once (and NEVER again!), I can tell you I learned quite a few things about it. Before anything else, though, this assumes your apartment is in the USA. Individual states vary as to timing, etc, but there's a few basic things that apply across the board. Security deposit: I sure hope you paid by check, to prove that it was in fact paid, because BY LAW, your landlords have to pay it back to you, less repairs, cleaning, etc. AND give you a statement showing their expenses. Here's the trick, though: they can't charge you for damages caused due to "normal wear and tear." That means if they replace worn carpet, but it's not burned through or with stains in it, they cannot charge you the costs, nor can they charge you to replace worn out appliances, unless you took a baseball bat to them, etc. If they fail to give you your deposit back within the deadline set by your state, you're entitled to take them to court for it, plus an additional penalty, that usually starts around triple the deposit. You can do this in small claims court by yourself. Most judges are not landlord-friendly when one tries to pull a stunt with the deposit. Showing the apartment: again, depends on the state for exact timing, but you are entitled to AT LEAST 24 hours' notice before they show the apartment to anyone. You can actually press charges of trespass against them if they enter or allow someone to enter your apartment with no prior notice. This also applies to your landlord inspecting the apartment. With their fighting and noise, you have grounds to break your lease, since by renting from them, you have the right to "peacable use and enjoyment" of your apartment. Meaning, if there's a constant disturbance preventing your quiet use of your residence, then the landlord must let you out of the lease with no penalty, since they're breaking their end of the lease. The part about them claiming you own the apartment is VERY disturbing. That could mean that it's an illegal apartment, and they told the prospective tenant that to cover their own arses, in case the prospect was an agent of whatever local agency governs apartments in your area. If it's an illegal apartment, then you may be entitled to not only your full deposit back, but perhaps some of your rent, as well. This one may need a lawyer to figure out, but it could be worth it. Age of the landlord doesn't matter. In all states, they're required to keep records of rental income, security deposits, etc. In fact, if you REALLY want to watch them squirm for a bit, ask them to produce the deposit record for your security deposit check. In some states, they are legally required to show you proof that they deposited your check into a bank within 24 hours of your request. Also, the moment they accepted rent check #1 from you, they legally became landlords, and subject to all the laws pertaining to that, whether there's a written lease or not. To force you out, they have to go through the courts to get an eviction. If they change the locks on you, you can call a locksmith to let you back in, and the landlords MUST supply you with the new keys at any time, day or night, that you come to them wanting the keys to the place. Forgot to add: messing with your mail is a Federal crime, with some serious jail time involved on conviction. If you can prove they've stolen mail or even temporarily diverted it, call your postal inspector immediately! HTH! Edited October 19, 2011 by MHaz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blunce Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Without reading the rest of your post, mail theft is a federal crime. Back to reading the rest of your post. What a mess. I'd say it's pretty likely you wont be getting a penny of your "deposit" back since they've already stated they need you to stay because they need your money. If you have the means to get out now, I'd be gone already. All you need is for them to let some fool into your apartment (which is illegal in any state I imagine) and get bit by your dog, then your dog gets deemed a dangerous animal and euthanized. I'd get out of there ASAP or call the cops for them letting strangers into your apartment, followed by a call to your local landlord-tennants rights department. Edited October 19, 2011 by blunce Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lee White Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 This might help- Sounds like a case of constructive eviction to me, but I'm not a Lawyer, nor do I play one on TV- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_eviction Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Netz Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) Change the locks and live there till the cops come to move you out. Pacific Heights Seriously, first change your locks, I assume your living "IN" their house with access through "Their" front door, then the 2 doors on the stair case. Find your check/receipt, money should NEVER leave your hand without a receipt.If you don't have either where did you get the money? if you withdrew it from the bank get that statement, the amount and date will prove the transaction (and bring it to court on the Banks letterhead). Sounds like you will most likely be going to court so you need to document all events that happen, collect all the information on the landlords,ie: source of income, go to the city and see if it is legal for them to rent the upstairs, do not pay them any more money. I think if you do leave you may be liable to pay the entire month, but without a contract it'll be up to the court to decide. So now you need to figure how much they owe you or you owe them and if you want to walk away then do so, I doubt they will sue you, but if they owe you money, I'd surly sue them, just be prepared so you don't walk into court empty handed and look like a fool, make them look like the fools. Curt Don't forget to take photo's before you leave.... Also $1700 a month, you could easily qualify for a $300,000.000 house for that Edited October 19, 2011 by Netz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phantom ordie Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Sounds like a job for Judge Judy. <_< Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bigasshammm Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 1700 dollars a month? Holy **** man there's gotta be better places around. My house isn't anywhere near that nor any apartment I've ever seen or thought about living in. I can understand if it was a high class high end neighborhood but WOW. Your cost of living has got to be atrocious. I agree with everyone here that you're pretty well screwed with the seurity deposit. Landlords can be very shady and work around things often. These sound like two of the worst. Also agree that as long as you are living there and paying rent inside those doors is technically your property and anyone inside without your permission is trespassing. Call the police immediately. Also about the mail fraud I'd call and also get your mail stopped immediately. Open a PO box or whatever you have in the area if need be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
majortomski Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Your local library should be able to provide you with your state's Landlord and Tennant act. That is what you have to stand on. Even without a written lease you, and they, have some responcibilities and protection under the law. Three points. You don't have a lease, you don't have a requirement for a notice to leave.UNLESS specified in the local laws. A Security deposit as stated above is for the repair of the appartment ONLY. It is not the penalty for breaking the leasse early. You don't have a lease you shouldn't have a penalty. You should get your money back. If I were you, I'd rent a new place tonight and be moving out into it tomorrow. My experiance is based with a bad rental corporation in Oklahoma. One letter with quotes from the Landlord and Tennant act with threats to take them, not to court but to the corporation commission, got me a lot of compensation really quickly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pastafarian Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I'd probably play it this way... I figure that you aren't likely to get your deposit back. I suppose you could fight it, but it might end up costing more than it's worth. You might bluff and make them think you'd push the issue, but hiring a lawyer, etc is going to be expensive. AND, even if you do get the judgement your way, do you really expect them to have the cash to pay? That said, you have more than paid for the half of the month for November (with your deposit). So honestly, I wouldn't feel bad at all about the November rent. IF (big if there) they do come across and be reasonable about giving back your deposit, you could tell them to just give you half of it to cover the rent for November. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zerosystem Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 there should be a set of laws in your state that covers this. somewhere in there should be a requirement (contract or not) that all security deposits go into a bank account and they have to be able to provide you with that information (and interest upon returning it to you) i was a 'tenant at will' for just over 5 years and nearly got screwed out of my deposit a few years ago, had to cover most of this...they kept claiming i caused damage to their 35+ year old orange shag carpet... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ross blackford Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) :D, I guess one way to prevent such an occurrence in the future would be to take photos of any place you sign a lease on at the initial inspection, (with date and time on the photos) and put them on several flash drives and send them to friends in various cities around the state. That way if the flash drive in your possession is stolen and 'disappears' there are several more to prove the condition of the place before you moved in and also to prove that you have looked after the place and kept it in the condition you found it in. You could then take more photos at the time you leave the place. I have suggested this to a friend who is taking legal action against her boss (in a government position, mind you, over workplace bullying and harrassment) and her house has been broken into and the relevant documentation stolen from her bedroom. Also her son who works at the same place has had his bedroom torched, (two ignition points according to the firies and forensic squad). I've advised her to redo the relevant statements and put them on a dozen flash drives and send them to a dozen friends throughout the state, that way the documentation can't just disappear or be deleted from her computer by a clever hacker and that has actually happened to another friend in a similar situation, all of a sudden there is no evidence on her part of what she claims has happened. It's a cruel world out there now, and becoming more cruel. We have to protect ourselves in any way we can and this is one way we can do that. , Ross. Edited October 20, 2011 by ross blackford Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bonehammer73 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) Wow, man... wow. Is this in Italy? The law is very much on the side of the tenant, provided that there's a written contract (which many landlords won't sign, for this very same reason). My advice: change the key drum to both doors. In theory, the tenant is under obligation to let the landlord in (with forewarning of at least one day and obvious hindrances notwithstanding, eg you're our of town on a business trip etc), to show the apartment to prospective tenants, but the landlords so far did whatever the hell they pleased so why shouldn't you? The dog is a problem, she might bite the tenant, the landlord or both, or just be frightened and escape onto the street below... etc. Before you move out, put the old drums back on. Also, if you feel you're not getting your money back, don't pay rent until you reach the same amount of the downpayment, then be out like a rocket to Mars, that way you'll be even, money-wise. With no contract, they can't sue you... they'd have to admit they rented out the flat without a contract in the first place. If you don't get your downpayment back, and try to get your money back from them, you'll be in for trouble. It's easy once you're caught in the leagal system to switch from victim to perp. By the by, 1,700 USD is not uncommon in major cities, especially for a furnished apartment. Edited October 20, 2011 by Bonehammer73 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Helidriver Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hey, Thanks for all the great advice. We are now out of the apartment, and I haven't had internet for a while due to the move. The apartment is in New York, Long Island, and is unfurnished. The situation sort of defused itself after the daughter of the landlords took over the handling of the apartment. The search for new tenants is now through a realtor, and everything seems to be going ok. The landlords themselves can't be trusted, as they even lied to their own daughter about the situation (saying that we had told her to not show the apartment to anyone etc) Again, thanks for all the advice, certainly came in helfpful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bigasshammm Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Wow. Seriously for that amount of money you could have a 300K dollar home where I live and probably still have money left over. Glad it all worked out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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