Jump to content

Raptors grounded once again


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 114
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Not surprising, another problem relating to the pilot's O2 system. The AF rescinded the grounding order a month ago for political reasons, to keep their pet aircraft from suffering additional bad press. The safety of the pilots was a secondary consideration. I love the addition of a carbon scrubber to the oxygen system, even though it won't remove any of the contaminants that they suspect are in the system (CO, nitrogen). Just a placebo to make the pilots feel that they are being protected.

The last sentence of the article:

"numerous sources had voiced their misgivings about the return to flight arrangements".

Somebody's head needs to roll over this fiasco.

More info here:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/stealth-fighters-grounded/#more-60880

Edited by 11bee
Link to post
Share on other sites

Somebody's head needs to roll over this fiasco.

I agree. The sooner we find a scape goat, the faster this gets swept under the rug. The best part about blaming an individual is if the problem is systemic, it never really gets solved, but at least we all feel better.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still trying to figure out what the F-22 is designed to fight (if it ever gets off the ground again). It's nothing but a relic of the Cold War. We could buy 20 new build F-15Cs for every F-22, and still kick butt against any comer for the foreseeable future.

Edited by Jennings
Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm still trying to figure out what the F-22 is designed to fight (if it ever gets off the ground again). It's nothing but a relic of the Cold War. We could buy 20 new build F-15Cs for every F-22, and still kick butt against any comer for the foreseeable future.

I'm wondering this as well. How many of our enemies have stealth fighters? Our potential enemies? China is the only one to worry about, and their "stealth" fighter has massive engines that probably nullify any stealth technology it has, or at the very least gives it a massive IR signature....and it's Made in China :whistle:

A few months back I read about recent developments to the F-15's radar that allows it to detect stealth anyway--so why is the F-22 even needed? Is it just a show-off piece?

Edited by Jinro
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still trying to figure out what the F-22 is designed to fight (if it ever gets off the ground again). It's nothing but a relic of the Cold War. We could buy 20 new build F-15Cs for every F-22, and still kick butt against any comer for the foreseeable future.

20? Alright, if you say so.

A few months back I read about recent developments to the F-15's radar that allows it to detect stealth anyway--so why is the F-22 even needed? Is it just a show-off piece?

That just shows lack of understanding of stealth.

Why is B-2 needed? I dont know any other nations that use stealth bombers. Useless! :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites
Why is B-2 needed? I dont know any other nations that use stealth bombers. Useless!

Err, well... yeah, actually.

Weren't we supposed to have bought a whole lot more of those, and then canceled them after we figured out that the threat they were supposed to fight went out of business?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The AF rescinded the grounding order a month ago for political reasons, to keep their pet aircraft from suffering additional bad press.

I think it was more a paperwork issue - the F-22 pilots were all days away from being decertified for flight because they haven't flown in so long, so if and when the F-22 was fixed there wouldn't be any F-22 pilots certified to fly them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it was more a paperwork issue - the F-22 pilots were all days away from being decertified for flight because they haven't flown in so long, so if and when the F-22 was fixed there wouldn't be any F-22 pilots certified to fly them.

I have a hard time drinking that kool-aid. They wouldn't let the entire fleet be airworthy again just because the pilots are timing out on their landings or flight time (pretty sure its not called "decertified"). Currency can be maintained in the simulator and the classroom.

Aaron

Link to post
Share on other sites

:D, If there are continuing problems with the OBOGS systems in these jets couldn't they be at least replaced temporarily with good old fashioned LOX systems until the problems are sorted? Just a thought, maybe not a very good one but just an idea.

:cheers:,

Ross.

Link to post
Share on other sites
That just shows lack of understanding of stealth.

Why is B-2 needed? I dont know any other nations that use stealth bombers. Useless!

Apples and oranges, no? The F-22 is a stealth fighter. The B-2 is a stealth bomber. Stealth has more relevance in a bomber aircraft or strike aircraft (F-35) that has to penetrate enemy air defenses. Stealth in a fighter? Not as relevant, IMO. The F-15 isn't stealth and (unless the stats have changed recently) hasn't lost a single jet in combat--so why is stealth needed at all for a fighter?

And that has to do with what?

You didn't pay attention to the emoticon, did you?

Edited by Jinro
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm wondering this as well. How many of our enemies have stealth fighters? Our potential enemies? China is the only one to worry about, and their "stealth" fighter has massive engines that probably nullify any stealth technology it has, or at the very least gives it a massive IR signature....and it's Made in China :whistle:

A few months back I read about recent developments to the F-15's radar that allows it to detect stealth anyway--so why is the F-22 even needed? Is it just a show-off piece?

No. just because one of our own aircraft can (Allegedly) detect stealth, stealth is no longer needed? I'm not following that logic. Nevermind that even if the F-22 stuck out like a sore thumb, its still has unequaled performance. high ceiling, Super cruise, thrust vectoring, etc. plus the F-15 won't last forever, eventually you have to build something new. A "young" F-15 is still 30 years old

Err, well... yeah, actually.

Weren't we supposed to have bought a whole lot more of those, and then canceled them after we figured out that the threat they were supposed to fight went out of business?

The original threat yes, but naturally new threats popped up, and continue to this day. If they had known that the US would almost constantly be at war for the next 20 years, they may have picked up a few more. It was short sighted. and pointing to a huge error and then calling that "proof" that they are not needed is ridiculous. Its just meant that the 20 bombers that are active are extremely well used. If they were hunks of junk they probably wouldn't be upgrading them.

I'm still trying to figure out what the F-22 is designed to fight (if it ever gets off the ground again). It's nothing but a relic of the Cold War. We could buy 20 new build F-15Cs for every F-22, and still kick butt against any comer for the foreseeable future.

It was designed primarily as an air superiority fighter, so im guessing other airplanes :) what is the "foreseeable future" anyway? I can tell you what the foreseeable future looked like on September 10, 2001. or in 1991 before the USSR collapsed. One day can make one helluva difference.

The only constant is change. Imagine if in 1945 we said "well hell these P-51s are top notch, don't ever see them needing to be replaced anytime soon!" Stealth is the biggest aviation breakthrough since the jet engine. Sure F-15s are great now, but in about 10 years... moreover, did the F-15 get its astounding record because it fought fair? The F-15 owes a lot of its success to vastly outclassing the competition at the time. It owes it success to being well ahead of the competition from the get go.

I never know what to think of these threads. If we are talking about the F-35 then its "mincemeat for the J-20 or PAKFA" but if its the F-22 its "so utterly advanced its like overkill, its not like the Chinese or Russians are developing new things"

Everyone needs to remember that the US military has the largest arrays, of threats, missions, and distances in various combinations. No other military has to do what the US does. Want a bad guy dead with SEALs and stealth Helicopters in a friendly country? Strategic bombing of a genocidal regime? Precision strike with cruise missiles? Flood relief? Peacekeeping? Counter insurgency? education and training? Nuclear strike? Anti Piracy? No fly zone? Invasion? evacuation? Regime change? Rescue?

You name it we do it. because of that you are going to have a lot of weapons that may never get used, or go decades before use. the F-15 was in service for 15 years before it shot down an aircraft in US service, SEALs played almost no role in the first gulf war, but have bee dazzlingly busy the last decade. everyone may have to come to grips with the fact that the F-22 may not see combat for a couple decades. but don't worry when it does and wins, you can be the "first one" to know the whole time how awesome it was. The F-15 had plenty of detractors in its day, but I bet not one of them would come forward now. "tell us the story of how you said the most successful air to air aircraft to date was a stupid waste of money again"

Apples and oranges, no? The F-22 is a stealth fighter. The B-2 is a stealth bomber. Stealth has more relevance in a bomber aircraft or strike aircraft (F-35) that has to penetrate enemy air defenses. Stealth in a fighter? Not as relevant, IMO. The F-15 isn't stealth and (unless the stats have changed recently) hasn't lost a single jet in combat--so why is stealth needed at all for a fighter?

You do realize that most air combat takes place over enemy territory right? Also F-15s have been lost in combat. Two in the first gulf war, they were Strike Eagles but again, its important to be safe from things firing up at you as well. If your assertion was "we have never lost a fighter since the F-15 was brought to service, and thus stealth is useless" you would have some ground to stand on, but since the more accurate statement would be "We have lost fighters in combat but none of them have been F-15Cs in air to air combat," that doesn't really prove your point. Fighters are still vulnerable to a myriad of threats, and many have been shot down.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone needs to remember that the US military has the largest arrays, of threats, missions, and distances in various combinations. No other military has to do what the US does. Want a bad guy dead with SEALs and stealth Helicopters in a friendly country? Strategic bombing of a genocidal regime? Precision strike with cruise missiles? Flood relief? Peacekeeping? Counter insurgency? education and training?

Nuclear strike? Anti Piracy? No fly zone? Invasion? evacuation? Regime change? Rescue?

You name it we do it.

taqt2_09.jpg

:thumbsup2:

Gregg

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm still trying to figure out what the F-22 is designed to fight (if it ever gets off the ground again). It's nothing but a relic of the Cold War.

I'm wondering this as well. How many of our enemies have stealth fighters? Our potential enemies? China is the only one to worry about, and their "stealth" fighter has massive engines that probably nullify any stealth technology it has, or at the very least gives it a massive IR signature....and it's Made in China :whistle:

---> :blink: <--- Wow... readin' blokes typin' sumthin' like this is quite a clear sign that the world is indeed endin' soon, 'n' that the AntiChrist is among us indeed, deludin' people all round "them" world already. :unsure:

"Yanks, whut d'ya need stealth aircraft for? Get rid of 'em; buy conventional jets instead" Then off he goes to the Chinese 'n' tells 'em exactly the opposite. :lol:

Me's afraid. Whut gives, Jay blokes?

Cheers,

Unc²

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. The sooner we find a scape goat, the faster this gets swept under the rug. The best part about blaming an individual is if the problem is systemic, it never really gets solved, but at least we all feel better.

Good point. The most expensive fighter program in history and the planes can't fly. The smart guys don't seem to have a clue what the cause of the issue is and pretty soon, we will be spending millions more to retrain the entire force of pilots when their currency expires. It's all good and we definitely wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings by holding someone accountable. Just throw more money at it and keep smiling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a hard time drinking that kool-aid. They wouldn't let the entire fleet be airworthy again just because the pilots are timing out on their landings or flight time (pretty sure its not called "decertified"). Currency can be maintained in the simulator and the classroom.

"A pilot who hasn't flown in 210 days must undergo complete requalification." Simulators aren't enough.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We could buy 20 new build F-15Cs for every F-22, and still kick butt against any comer for the foreseeable future.

I've been accused of being overly American-centric but there is no way I could ever make a statement like that with a straight face. Do you really think a 40 year old design like the F-15 is the ultimate fighter on the planet? Even with the latest upgrades, I think it would be hard pressed to compete with some of the newer designs coming from certain eastern manufacturers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Neat read. It states that the USAF is putting pilots through a shortened version of requalification. It doesn't prove my point about currency, but it doesn't exactly say they made the F-22 fleet airworthy just so pilots wouldn't lose currency.

Aaron

Edited by jester292
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...