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Rhino Modelworks is a fraud counterfeiter


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Something I missed in the prior thread in early October was that the ebay seller "rhino" had changed his name to "rhino3401". Someone pointed out that one of the feedback responses for "rhino" was, "Best ebayer ever! Missed delivery but items shipped again. Thank you Paul!!"

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=rhino_models&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&interval=0&mPg=41&page=16

Since we now know for certain that Rhino Modelworks is indeed Paul Miller, who we know for certain has copied other people's work in the past (and my photographs), why is there any doubt about whether or not he is selling pirated copies? The other thing I noticed is that "rhino" had feedback for 678 transactions and "rhino3401" has feedback for 132 more. Using a conservative guesstimate of $20 profit per transaction, this jerk has made ~ $16,200 flogging other people's work for these 2 accounts on ebay!

"rhino" joined ebay in October, 2009 the same month Dimitri first busted Paul Miller and I also notice the last feedback for "rhino" was in February and the first feedback for "rhino3401" was in August of this year, so the rhino name took a break for 6 months. I bet he sold stuff in between those dates as someone else, or took a break because he felt heat for some reason.

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read the post, and saw some problems.

* why were the photos not watermarked? (as in copyrighted) I had a problem a few years back with Sony using my photos and another guy also selling post cards with my photos. It took about a month for Sony to pull all their magazine adds with my photos, and the dealers selling the post cards removed them.

* You folks making this stuff (masters) can also copyright your masters before you sell them to somebody in the resin industry. When you sell them to the end user he also buys the copyright for his own protection. Then when a guy like Mr. Miller pulls another stunt you have him by the jugular vein!

* The U.S. Government dosn't take lightly to the theft of intellectual property, and if it's used to manufacture a similar product it becomes industrial espionage. Penalties are extremely stiff, and often mean jail time and a rather stiff fine that's usually six figures or higher.

* The end user here has the right to file mail fraud charges against Mr. Miller and Ebay in this case (they were the outlet). I would file a complaint with the Canadian counterpart, who in turn should files a complaint with the U.S. Postal folks (in this country we honor Canadian complaints)

Now go get him

gary

I have mentioned something along this line not too long ago. Its beating a dead horse, aparrently, but not my problem. I still support ORIGINAL work.

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I have mentioned something along this line not too long ago. Its beating a dead horse, aparrently, but not my problem. I still support ORIGINAL work.

I spoke with my daughter a couple hours ago (has a degree in International Law, Copyright Law, and Corporate Law). She said the stuff we are whining about is not much till he used the U.S. Postal Service. and took his business across state lines (let alone international borders). Secondly the folks that are being ripped off need to keep an accurate log of the Ebay transactions (she said to also print out the add for each part everytime). She also said that once the business has been proven to reach $100 dollars in harm (as she put it) you have reach a certain level. Then when it reaches $1000 you have then moved on up the ladder and so on. You also have the right to sue for as much as three times the damages in many states, plus punitive damages leveled by the courts. Then you also have the right to seek the same thing from any accomplace (including and end user if he knew in advance before purchasing the product (in a few states possession is good enough). I asked her about royalties, and she said in some areas the court can set them, and in many other areas the individual can assess whatever he thinks they should be. She spoke of an outfit in the western part of the country that went thru the same deal, and the judge had them figure out what they wanted for royalties. They came up with a $25 price on a $12 part. The judge over ruled them, but made the royalty $12, and retroactive for every part they sold. Then the folks came up with bogus figures and the court ordered a complete audit at the company's expense. Then held them in contempt of court with even further penalties. She said you must have very accurate documentation, and be able to prove yourself right. In this case Ebay is your friend.

gary

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So lets say that you were the one who created and owns the patterns and hold the copyright for them.

You spent hundreds of hours researching and making the parts.

You had to close your business for personal reasons and plan to someday either re-open or sell the patterns to another business.

How would you feel if this guy copied your work and was selling tons of them on Ebay, taking future profit out of your pocket?

As a former business owner I'd sue. As a consumer, I usually buy the best whether it be a knock off or the real deal. If it's OOP, then in my ethics book all bets are off. The end user, benefits the most in this case. Which is why I really don't care too much about OOP items being reproduced.

So which is it? You'd sue or you wouldn't care if you were being robbed?

What would you do if you were a small aftermarket company that barely makes enough money to keep food on the table let alone hire a lawyer?

Or would you have no cares that your hard work is being exploited and your potential profits are going into the pocket of a freeloader?

So it's okay to copy off the kit maker, but not okay to improve on someone's resin piece which is a copy of the kit itself? I don't see the theft there. I understand why someone would be ****** if they spent countless hours and someone else just recasted what they did, but to label it theft when the original was a copy? I don't get the logic. It's not moral to reproduce something and the orginal person not be paid for his time and research, but when the item is based off a kit part then it's not so black and white.
My post from the previous thread:

Patterns made form injection kit part vs. patterns made from modified aftermarket parts:

It doesn't hurt the plastic company but it kills the aftermarket company.

There's a big difference here in my mind between modifying an original kit part and selling it and modifying an aftermarket part and selling it.

If I modify a Trumpeter part, improve upon it, make molds and sell a copy to you, you would still need to buy the Trumpeter kit to use my part. Trumpeter still makes 100% of their profit for their hard work.

If somebody copies and sells my part, modified or not, then I am making 0% profit, even though it was my hard work that made the original pattern.

To me it's a matter of ethics. Copyright law might allow someone to purchase and modify a competitors aftermarket part but it's just wrong...

You keep saying that aftermarket parts are just copies of the original kit makers parts, yet you can understand why they'd be 'upset' if they spent countless hours and somebody re-casted it.

If they spent countless hours modifying a part it isn't merely a 'copy'.

If someone wants to run their own aftermarket company and sell the same item as another , they should buy their own donor kit, spend their own time and modify the parts themselves (if they have the skills to do so).

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Trumpeter take your corrected resin parts and apply them back to their Su-27 fixing their orginal flaws? So who wronged whom?
Well let's see...

I spent hundreds of hours researching and hand-crafting scratchbuilt parts to enhance the kit. They didn't lose a single sale, in fact they increased sales to those who wouldn't have bought the kit unless the correction set was available.

By using my hard work and "fixing their original flaws", they not only got hundreds of hours of free labor but took thousands of dollars of potential sales out of my pocket.

You answer the question...

And even if it is a copy or modified version, do people really care?
I'm amazed and saddened by your attitude.

Yes, thankfully, most people have higher morals and ethics and do care.

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The cottage industries on here make these parts for us because we request them, and there is a modest amount of profit to be made for all their hard work and effort. When some bozo steals from the originals (whether in production or not) it does a few things:

1: It is robbery pure and simple

2: Why would the original people feel the need to make new products when they are just going to get ripped off anyways?

Don't support theft, if you do, one day you may want a new widget for your model, and no one will bother because of this crap right here.

Support honest cottage manufacturers or there wont be any more decent aftermarket!

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Um guys, it's obvious to me that he is NOT copying anybody on anything. Look at this listing. He says so himself. That solves that problem. You guys obviously were worked up over nothing.

Aaron

:wasntme:

Of course I just got rid of my CE intakes w/the anticipation of the Twomikes set coming out soon, so I can not compare the two.

Edited by strikeeagle801
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Um guys, it's obvious to me that he is NOT copying anybody on anything. Look at this listing. He says so himself. That solves that problem. You guys obviously were worked up over nothing.

Aaron

:wasntme:

Of course I just got rid of my CE intakes w/the anticipation of the Twomikes set coming out soon, so I can not compare the two.

My intakes will and are based on the Tamiya kit intakes so anyone can compare away with the CE ones. I will say however that all of this crap going on with Rhino and seeing that some individuals here have no scruples makes me wonder if this is even all worth it. Pretty sad to be honest.

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Um guys, it's obvious to me that he is NOT copying anybody on anything. Look at this listing. He says so himself. That solves that problem. You guys obviously were worked up over nothing.

Aaron

He has just introduced these comments on his ebay listings as a result of me and this thread. Ignoring all the other comparisons and doubt they might inspire, here are a few indisputable facts, which I have proof of above and beyond what has been documented here:

Fact Rhino = Paul Miller

Fact Paul Miller sold stuff on ebay under the name of "c027e14fa01bed4855bb090f23b800e621834113" which disappeared in October, 2009

Fact Dimitri of DMold first alerted us of pirated copies of his work in October, 2009 here...

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=194304

and here, all sold by Paul Miller......

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=194372&hl

Fact Paul Miller sold me a set of fake DMold F-18 intakes on ebay just prior to this time. This was one of several sales he made during that time period on ebay of DMold products when all other reputable suppliers couldn't get their hands on any. I still have them in their poor packaging, sold as an original DMold product, and I can trace the transaction back to him.

Fact When I asked Paul Miller for a refund on ebay, he totally ignored me, even though we had many email conversations before without a problem.

Fact A new ebay seller is launched in October, 2009 (as the above account disappears) as "rhino_models". Proof here:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=rhino_models&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&interval=0&mPg=41&page=16

Fact "rhino_models" is replaced by "rhino3401" in August, 2011 for reasons unknown, but they sell the exact same stuff.

Fact My ebay account is blocked from buying any products from either Rhino ebay seller, even though I have a perfect record and they sell internationally (I live in Canada).

Fact After acquiring a set of F-18 exhaust nozzles (that look identical to MK1 Design nozzles) from Rhino from another ebayer, I find that Paul Miller has stolen my photographs of the real deal to give instructions on how to paint them. The nozzles are almost certainly copies of the MK1 Design nozzles, right down to some subtle mold flaws within the nozzle itself. There are a few small changes, but a monkey could have done it in an attempt to hide the crime.

Fact I have a few more, but I'll hold these back in case Mr. Miller foolishly attempts to defend himself, which he has never done- ever.

So if some of you guys think a guy who actually had the gall to not only copy DMold intakes but to sell them as ORIGINALS wouldn't copy other products, you either live in la-la land or you're in denial. I don't believe any of his products are complete originals, but copies altered to somehow make them less obviously so and unique to Rhino. If he actually has made some original pieces, who cares? The guy is proven pirate of other people's hard work, pure and simple, so why would you buy anything from him?

Edited by chuck540z3
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I'm amazed and saddened by your attitude.

Yes, thankfully, most people have higher morals and ethics and do care.

I'm not.

There are far too many people that just don't care in this world. They only care about themselves and saving a buck.

The use of the Aires wheel well in the A-7 intake and photos from someone else are strikes against. Strike one and strike two.

MK1 Design nozzles. Strike three.

Sierra Hotel S-3 inlets. Strike four.

How many strikes until he's out?

For me one strike is enough.

Edited by Maker
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My intakes will and are based on the Tamiya kit intakes so anyone can compare away with the CE ones. I will say however that all of this crap going on with Rhino and seeing that some individuals here have no scruples makes me wonder if this is even all worth it. Pretty sad to be honest.

Mike- I was talking about comparing the CE ones to the Rhino ones, NOT yours to the CE ones. I hope you know me better than that to think that I would be accusing you of copying something. I consider you a friend, and you've helped me out with a lot of stuff over the years that we have known each other. I would NEVER accuse you of un-ethical conduct. My comment was "tongue in cheek" anyways...I merely thought that it was interesting that after all that has been said in this thread(which people have suggested that he has read) that he would come out and say in his description of the item that "All original work, performed by me………"

Rest assured that when your intakes and nozzle come out, as soon as I have the money for them, you'll have an order from me for them. I sold me CE sets specifically because I knew that you would be coming out with them, and as with the rest of your stuff, they would be top-notch.

I guess I just should have kept my comment to myself, as it appears that no one got my sarcasm, and I appear to offended a friend. For that I apologize. As far as the original thing is concerned, I don't know what to think about it. I have the 1/48 F-4 intakes, 1/32 F-18 intake/wheel set, and the 1/32 F/A-18 nozzles (which Dave Roof said are wrong anyways) and I'm happy with my purchases. All were bought before this thread was started, and I don't have any of the D-mold/CE/whoever products to compare them to. There's nothing on his list now that I need, so it is unlikely that I will buy anything else from him.

Aaron

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Aaron,

Oh no man, you read MY comments all wrong. I just stated that my intakes would not be based on the CE ones but on the kit ones. Guess what? The CE ones are basically the kit ones too! How do I know? I have em. :)

My comments were mainly directed at the people who think it is just fine to buy copied parts with no issues at all. Do I know 100% that Rhino has copied anyone elses stuff? Nope. Mainly because I have none of the offending parts in my hands to prove or disprove it. I do trust the words of people who do this such as Chris, Mike V and Dmitri. We are a small fraternity of resin makers and I think we go out of our way to keep an eye out for each other. While we are "competitors" I don't think any of us are out to ruin one another. Heck if you look at our product lines, I don't think there are any duplicates between us.

I really take issue with people who see no issue in buying parts that are pirated though (Rhino Models not withstanding)from any manufacture past or present. That is what makes me wonder why I even bother doing this.

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So should Dell be mad at Toshiba for making a laptop? Should Ford be mad at Chevy for making a car? Let's not get mad at someone because they made a "F-18 intake" look like a "f-18 intake". As long as nobody broke into this guys house and stole the molds then what's the big deal? This hobby needs more AM choices, not less. Who the heck wants to pay $50.00 for a AM part when you can get it for $30.00? What matters is, is the $30.00 part just as good as the $50.00 part. Or, is the $50.00 part worth the cost because it's much better and worth it.

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Let's not get mad at someone because they made a "F-18 intake" look like a "f-18 intake". As long as nobody broke into this guys house and stole the molds then what's the big deal? This hobby needs more AM choices, not less. Who the heck wants to pay $50.00 for a AM part when you can get it for $30.00? What matters is, is the $30.00 part just as good as the $50.00 part. Or, is the $50.00 part worth the cost because it's much better and worth it.
So you're saying that it would be just fine for me to pour rubber on the entire Aires line, cast them up and sell them, so long as my prices were cheaper?

:deadhorse1:

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So should Dell be mad at Toshiba for making a laptop? Should Ford be mad at Chevy for making a car? Let's not get mad at someone because they made a "F-18 intake" look like a "f-18 intake". As long as nobody broke into this guys house and stole the molds then what's the big deal? This hobby needs more AM choices, not less. Who the heck wants to pay $50.00 for a AM part when you can get it for $30.00? What matters is, is the $30.00 part just as good as the $50.00 part. Or, is the $50.00 part worth the cost because it's much better and worth it.

I ignored your last post because it was so moronic, I knew it must be some sort of joke. You just proved me wrong.

Let me spoon feed you, since you obviously need it. Is Toshiba selling a laptop that does the same thing as Dell or copying every little part and assembling it to look exactly like the Dell product? If it's the latter, it's a copyright violation and it's against the law. Why do you think they have patents?

For a modeling example, Alexander (Eastern) spent many weeks and months perfecting a perfect looking AIM-9 missile that blows away any kit part. He and Chris (Zactoman) collaborate on replicating it in resin so that you and I can buy a missile just like it. They do this to make a few bucks because they have something original and unique. Hopefully it is a smashing success and they are rewarded for their efforts and everyone is happy, including many modelers like you and me who can now buy this new product. Suddenly, however, sales drop off because some jerk has copied one of the missiles and sells it on ebay for half of what the Zactoman product sells for. Apparently you think this is OK and you're one of the dopes who readily buys from the pirate "because its cheaper". If you read the thread properly you'd realize that we're not talking about someone making a similar looking F-18 intake, we're talking about someone using someone else's F-18 intake creation to form a mold for their own pirated exact copy. Get it?

So tell me this, why in hell would anybody want to go to all the effort of creating these resin products if anybody can copy it for free and make money for themselves off all their hard work? How does this scenario create "more AM choices"? If it is allowed to continue without any consequences, almost all AM resin manufacturing would come to a complete halt. If there's no financial upside, why bother?

I bet you bought your wife a fake Gucci purse in Mexico or Hong Kong, didn't you? "Who the heck wants to pay $500.00 for a purse when you can get it for $30.00?" People like you keep pirating alive. With no sales, the pirates wouldn't bother making knock offs.

Edited by chuck540z3
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I ignored your last post because it was so moronic, I knew it must be some sort of joke. You just proved me wrong.

Let me spoon feed you, since you obviously need it. Is Toshiba selling a laptop that does the same thing as Dell or copying every little part and assembling it to look exactly like the Dell product? If it's the latter, it's a copyright violation and it's against the law. Why do you think they have patents?

For a modeling example, Alexander (Eastern) spent many weeks and months perfecting a perfect looking AIM-9 missile that blows away any kit part. He and Chris (Zactoman) collaborate on replicating it in resin so that you and I can buy a missile just like it. They do this to make a few bucks because they have something original and unique. Hopefully it is a smashing success and they are rewarded for their efforts and everyone is happy, including many modelers like you and me who can now buy this new product. Suddenly, however, sales drop off because some jerk has copied one of the missiles and sells it on ebay for half of what the Zactoman product sells for. Apparently you think this is OK and you're one of the dopes who readily buys from the pirate "because its cheaper". If you read the thread properly you'd realize that we're not talking about someone making a similar looking F-18 intake, we're talking about someone using someone else's F-18 intake creation to form a mold for their own pirated exact copy. Get it?

So tell me this, why in hell would anybody want to go to all the effort of creating these resin products if anybody can copy it for free and make money for themselves off all their hard work? How does this scenario create "more AM choices"? If it is allowed to continue without any consequences, almost all AM resin manufacturing would come to a complete halt. If there's no financial upside, why bother?

I bet you bought your wife a fake Gucci purse in Mexico or Hong Kong, didn't you? "Who the heck wants to pay $500.00 for a purse when you can get it for $30.00?" People like you keep pirating alive. With no sales, the pirates wouldn't bother making knock offs.

It's called competition, life, and buisness Chuck. Sorry that you can't deal with it. Oh, i looked up the seller on eBay and see that he has 100% pos. feedback from customers, why is this in the bad trader section? Hey, congrats on the free intake. You can now afford that $500.00 Gucci bag for the wife! :thumbsup:

Edited by big fatty
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It's called competition, life, and buisness Chuck. Sorry that you can't deal with it. Oh, i looked up the seller on eBay and see that he has 100% pos. feedback from customers, why is this in the bad trader section? Hey, congrats on the free intake. You can now afford that $500.00 Gucci bag for the wife! :thumbsup:

No, it's called cheating, morals, and illegal business. Either you don't understand what it is these guys are accusing him of, or you have a rather strange sense of right. They aren't saying the guy created parts that looks like another companies or even that perform like another ones. They are saying the dude made a mold of the other companies parts and cast some as his own and sold them. It would be like Chevy made a cast of a Ford and sold it as a Chevy. BIG difference! If you can't see the difference in that and what you describe (which is called reverse engineering) then there's not much sense in explaining it further. BTW, I don't know one way or the other so I'm not arguing that Chuck is right (I tend to think he probably is) but I'm arguing against the rather casual attitude towards cheaters in general. That's not competition, it's WRONG.

Bill

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It's called competition, life, and buisness Chuck. Sorry that you can't deal with it. Oh, i looked up the seller on eBay and see that he has 100% pos. feedback from customers, why is this in the bad trader section? Hey, congrats on the free intake. You can now afford that $500.00 Gucci bag for the wife! :thumbsup:

Since you are obviously ethically challenged, there's no use debating the merits of buying products that are known to be pirated from others any more. Your position is clear- buying fake or copied goods is OK with you as long as they're cheap. Sad really.

As far as the 100% positive feedback for this seller on ebay is concerned, there are no reasons to not give positive feedback to this vendor. The buyers are either unaware that many (if not all) of the products are derived directly from other people's excellent work or, like you, they really don't GAS, so why would they not be happy as long as they get the goods they paid for and they were delivered on time and undamaged?

You've brought up the lame "free intake" shot twice now and although it hardly deserves a response, the reality is that I got the intake to compare to the pirated copy by the owner of DMold who created the original F-18 intakes in the first place. If receiving free intakes from this vendor to help him bust a thief is a big bonus somehow, I really don't get it. They replaced the fake parts, which went into the garbage, so I'm no further ahead.

Lastly, to answer your question, this thread is in the Bad Trader Forum not because of me. I originally posted it in the General Discussion Forum, but the Admin's thought it belonged here instead and therefore moved it here later. I tend to agree with them.

Edited by chuck540z3
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Since you are obviously ethically challenged, there's no use debating the merits of buying products that are known to be pirated from others any more. Your position is clear- buying fake or copied goods is OK with you as long as they're cheap. Sad really.

As far as the 100% positive feedback for this seller on ebay is concerned, there are no reasons to not give positive feedback to this vendor. The buyers are either unaware that many (if not all) of the products are derived directly from other people's excellent work or, like you, they really don't GAS, so why would they not be happy as long as they get the goods they paid for and they were delivered on time and undamaged?

You've brought up the lame "free intake" shot twice now and although it hardly deserves a response, the reality is that I got the intake to compare to the pirated copy by the owner of DMold who created the original F-18 intakes in the first place. If receiving free intakes from this vendor to help him bust a thief is a big bonus somehow, I really don't get it. They replaced the fake parts, which went into the garbage, so I'm no further ahead.

Lastly, to answer your question, this thread is in the Bad Trader Forum not because of me. I originally posted it in the General Discussion Forum, but the Admin's thought it belonged here instead and therefore moved it here later. I tend to agree with them.

Well we can agree on the fact that you did not put this thread in this catagory. I'm sorry but i see the competition with AM parts that look the same and do the same thing. Yet we don't sit around and **** and moan that some AM company made a part that looks like ours! I just feel like competition is good for this hobby and if i can save a few bucks then i can pick up a set of ZACTOMANS AIM-9's, i'm sure he would like that. Also, i never buy anything JUST because it's cheap, i look at the value of what i buy. I may not agree with your buisness sense or lack their of, but i sure enjoy your F-4 build!

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