Rhino Modelworks is a fraud counterfeiter

[big fatty]

No, it's called cheating, morals, and illegal business. Either you don't understand what it is these guys are accusing him of, or you have a rather strange sense of right. They aren't saying the guy created parts that looks like another companies or even that perform like another ones. They are saying the dude made a mold of the other companies parts and cast some as his own and sold them. It would be like Chevy made a cast of a Ford and sold it as a Chevy. BIG difference! If you can't see the difference in that and what you describe (which is called reverse engineering) then there's not much sense in explaining it further. BTW, I don't know one way or the other so I'm not arguing that Chuck is right (I tend to think he probably is) but I'm arguing against the rather casual attitude towards cheaters in general. That's not competition, it's WRONG.

Bill

Sir you are correct, the Ford / Chevy comparison was vague. How about Green Giant sweet peas to Libby's sweet peas,they look the same, no? But do they taste the same? They show you how to make molds in the modeling magazines and i'm sure on line. I'm sure that others "barrow ideas" from others that have paved the way, so what! If a person wants to take the time to make a mold and pour some resin to make a buck, big deal! It's called FREE enterprise. This is why we have competition in the real world, if you want to stay in buisness then compete. If not, then some guy in his garage will put you outta buisness!

[peebeep]

Wow, you really don't get it. There is a difference between free enterprise and theft, even if the theft is based upon abstract ideas, but still another person's intellectual property. Presumably you are comfortable with buying pirated DVD's or MP3 data, despite the fact that it effectively robs the author of their royalties? Same thing with copying another guys resin bits.

peebeep

[big fatty]

Wow, you really don't get it. There is a difference between free enterprise and theft, even if the theft is based upon abstract ideas, but still another person's intellectual property. Presumably you are comfortable with buying pirated DVD's or MP3 data, despite the fact that it effectively robs the author of their royalties? Same thing with copying another guys resin bits.

peebeep

To each his own.

[peebeep]

I think we can take that as a 'yes' then.

peebeep

[Zactoman]

It's called competition, life, and buisness

I'm sorry but i see the competition with AM parts that look the same and do the same thing. Yet we don't sit around and **** and moan that some AM company made a part that looks like ours! I just feel like competition is good for this hobby and if i can save a few bucks then i can pick up a set of ZACTOMANS AIM-9's, i'm sure he would like that. Also, i never buy anything JUST because it's cheap, i look at the value of what i buy. I may not agree with your buisness sense or lack their of, but i sure enjoy your F-4 build!

I'm hoping that Peebeep is right and that you just don't understand what we are talking about here. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt...

It's not about another company 'making' the same product, which would be competition, which is just fine.

It's about the other company stealing and selling the parts as their own. That's not competition, it's theft and copyright infringement.

You say you'd buy my Sidewinders because you appreciate the value.

But would you buy identical Sidewinders from a different company because they are cheaper?

Even if that company didn't actually make them but broke into my shop and stole them from my inventory? Because that is essentially the same thing as what we are talking about here.

If another company takes my Sidewinder and pours a mold over it, they will be able to cast parts that are essentially identical, right down to fingerprints on the parts. They have not created anything to sell but stolen my part. It is theft, period.

Like I said, I'm hoping that you just misunderstood this discussion and wouldn't knowingly support a thief at the expense of an honest, hard-working businessman.

[big fatty]

I think we can take that as a 'yes' then.

peebeep

No. If you want to cry about some guy selling resin on eBay for a fair price, fine. I will keep buying the items i feel like buying. FYI, the last DVD i purchsaed was Dawn of the Dead (un cut Version)from a video store. And i listen to music the old fasion way, radio and CD's. Funny how people assume things just because you don't see things their way or don't take the same point of view. But i'm not shocked, internet is great cover.

[big fatty]

I'm hoping that Peebeep is right and that you just don't understand what we are talking about here. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt...

It's not about another company 'making' the same product, which would be competition, which is just fine.

It's about the other company stealing and selling the parts as their own. That's not competition, it's theft and copyright infringement.

You say you'd buy my Sidewinders because you appreciate the value.

But would you buy identical Sidewinders from a different company because they are cheaper?

Even if that company didn't actually make them but broke into my shop and stole them from my inventory? Because that is essentially the same thing as what we are talking about here.

If another company takes my Sidewinder and pours a mold over it, they will be able to cast parts that are essentially identical, right down to fingerprints on the parts. They have not created anything to sell but stolen my part. It is theft, period.

Like I said, I'm hoping that you just misunderstood this discussion and wouldn't knowingly support a thief at the expense of an honest, hard-working businessman.

Zactoman i will buy anything you make, so start the molding! I understand your side of this and other AM folks. A exhaust on a F-? looks like this. And i make a AM copy to replace the kits. Well you decide to make a copy and the end result looks a lot like mine, now what? Remember the exhaust looks the same on all F-?. What happens, we start pointing fingers at each other and fighting on the inet? Are we sure that it was "theft"? IMHO, i always thought that the 1 piece F-4 intake was a combo of the CE intake and SS trunk, see what i'm getting at? And yes i would buy your replica winders just so i can have the cash left over to buy stuff that only you make. Just spreading my little wealth around.

[Zactoman]

No, you really aren't understanding what we're talking about.

A exhaust on a F-? looks like this. And i make a AM copy to replace the kits. Well you decide to make a copy and the end result looks a lot like mine, now what? Remember the exhaust looks the same on all F-?. What happens, we start pointing fingers at each other and fighting on the inet? Are we sure that it was "theft"?

So lets say that YOU spend 200 hours scratchbuilding this exhaust. You decide to start your own business and spend $800 on equipment, website, packaging and a proper business license. You spend 30 hours preparing a mold and casting a bunch of parts.

I buy one of your first castings for $40. Your first profit!

I take your part, spend 15 minutes and pour a mold on it. I Spend a couple of hours casting copies. I then go on Ebay and sell them for $20.

Is this still OK with you?

And yes i would buy your replica winders just so i can have the cash left over to buy stuff that only you make. Just spreading my little wealth around.

And what if the pirate steals all of my stuff and sells it for less? I go out of business.

[peebeep]

But i'm not shocked, internet is great cover.

Yes, pirates and thieves of intellectual property love it. Who's crying about people selling stuff for a fair price? The issue that has been raised is whether it's OK for somebody to profit from stolen property. Are you saying you unequivocally agree that it is wrong to do so? Or maybe you think it is OK? You're previous statements are very ambiguous.

peebeep

[big fatty]

Yes, pirates and thieves of intellectual property love it. Who's crying about people selling stuff for a fair price? The issue that has been raised is whether it's OK for somebody to profit from stolen property. Are you saying you unequivocally agree that it is wrong to do so? Or maybe you think it is OK? You're previous statements are very ambiguous.

peebeep

Well i stand corrected,the pics of the F-18 exhaust he used looked the same, the intake not so much. Look at at the bottom left corner of the "fake", looks smaller under the opening towards the back . But hey, if it bugs you so much and he broke the law then call the cops and have him arrested! Gotta go to work so i can get my wife that $500.00 Gucci bag that Chuck called me out on and i may have to get the MP3 player as well. Then this all may make sense to me.

[timc]

I've seen this guys work and having been around the block a few years, I immediately recognized the work as someone elses. Upon gettin a closer look at the Ebay listing(s), I'm sure of it. I remember when Dimitri first unveiled his F-4 intakes; they were awesome and still are. I've seen/read Dimitri's thread about the pirating. I have in the past and always will in the future, go right to the original source(if at all possible) when buying my aftermarket accessories. That means for anything Su-27 as well as some other unique corrections/additions, I go (and have been) to Zactoman, period, end of sentence. For F-4, F-18 intakes, I go to DMold (if I can). Anybody elses work has to be substantially different in order for me to consider it. If it's not, then I'll pay the extra money to get the original. Having said that, for stuff that's not available any longer (i.e. Cutting Edge), is substantially different or never been done, I will entertain lesser known/new manufacturers (usually after having read the reviews). I will always support the legitimate artist/manufacturer when it comes to aftermarket stuff. Doing anything else just takes money out of his/her pocket and sustainability out of their business. This Rhino guy is, in my opinion, stealing from Dimitri and from anybody else he's copying to promote himself and I won't have any part of it. Will it cost a few bucks more? Sure, but what price can you put on originality and creativity? These guys give us great stuff to augment our modeling experience and make our builds that more intricate/detailed/correct. If you don't mind misshapen/inaccurate/bogus details, go ahead and buy the pirated stuff...the original guys who created the good stuff are no longer going to generate anything new; they can't afford to or they're sick of having their creativity stolen.

Edited November 16, 2011 by timc

[Bubby]

Crap! I ordered stuff from Rhino Models not too long ago, twice! I didn't know he was a fraud. His eBay account changed at some point between my two and I found it odd but I didn't dig any deeper. He's off my list! You say his stuff is copied from DMold? I'll have to go check him out.

Thanks for the alert. That's the last purchase he sees from me!

[phasephantomphixer]

He gets well paid for purchasing an AM set, changing something small on it, then casting, packaging, and listing it on Ebay.

Thing is, he knows it is wrong and proves it everyday by not showing up ANYWHERE in the hobby other than Ebay...

To me it is personal since he has copied one of my items with no authorization.

[chuck540z3]

Just in case there are still skeptics out there, consider this. I have personally contacted Paul Miller recently and through a 5 email exchange I have saved, I called him a thief and what was his reaction? He offered me SEVEN of his 1/32 resin sets for FREE including shipping (his idea) without so much as a fight and presumably to shut me up. Who gives $150 worth of ebay products to people who call them a thief, unless they're guilty? Of course I declined.

That is why I started this thread and that is why it remains up today with no response from Mr. Miller. He won't fight me because he's guilty.

Edited December 16, 2011 by chuck540z3

[Maker]

He's back again. http://www.ebay.com/sch/rhino_models/m.html?hash=item337021deed&item=220924600045&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&_trksid=p4340.l2562

[Scooby]

Just in case there are still skeptics out there, consider this. I have personally contacted Paul Miller recently and through a 5 email exchange I have saved, I called him a thief and what was his reaction? He offered me SEVEN of his 1/32 resin sets for FREE including shipping (his idea) without so much as a fight and presumably to shut me up. Who gives $150 worth of ebay products to people who call them a thief, unless they're guilty? Of course I declined.

That is why I started this thread and that is why it remains up today with no response from Mr. Miller. He won't fight me because he's guilty.

Wow, amazing stuff.

Good on you for refusing the stuff.

[phasephantomphixer]

So should Dell be mad at Toshiba for making a laptop? Should Ford be mad at Chevy for making a car? Let's not get mad at someone because they made a "F-18 intake" look like a "f-18 intake". As long as nobody broke into this guys house and stole the molds then what's the big deal? This hobby needs more AM choices, not less. Who the heck wants to pay $50.00 for a AM part when you can get it for $30.00? What matters is, is the $30.00 part just as good as the $50.00 part. Or, is the $50.00 part worth the cost because it's much better and worth it.

So you are at your local hobby club meeting and a member sees you have skill. He asks that you help with a part of a kit that is problematic. You analyze the issue and come up with not only a solution, but spend two days assembling, sanding, and correcting the shape of the part by researching from photos because you are a nice guy. After giving him the part you find out he has cast it and is selling it with no mention of your efforts. It's not that this guy is selling something he's made on his own, it's that he's recasting and selling another persons time and effort as his own-stealing.

[HOLMES]

....I never buy from evil bay and certainly have never bought anything from this seller and I am not likely to do so..

But I was discussing this particular thread with one of MY friends and colleague who works in Fraud and Economic Crime Unit[Police Force}

who deal with all sorts of crimes and many varieties of Fraud in real life and online in cyber- land as he calls it.

He and I both wondered if any one of you or all OF YOU have reported the fact that Rhino Model works is in fact a

fraud; and that this man and his company { whether it is one man band or not , it is his Company AND HE RUNS IT !} are in BREACH of the VeRO { VERIFIED RIGHTS OWNER} Program that E-Bay has set out in their guidelines, OR rather in their agreement that you have to sign when you join the evil bay as a seller etc ..

...They state quite clearly that anyone who infringes the VeRO program that is set up to protect the owners of "intellectuala property rights ".

I have found the link that he gave ME for your perusal ...{ SCROLL half way down the link }

http://eizzy.hubpages.com/hub/Suspended-eBay-Account

..... and he informs ME that the more people complain and show that the product he sells is stolen from you{ or is copied } and you are the the original rights owner then the evil bay will have to look into it and take measures to suspened that person and be suspended from ever doing that kind of selling again and may not be reinstated... you will have to show that the product was yours etc.

What he is doing is like stealing industrial products manufactured by someone else and making out he made it and then seliing it for big Bucks.

Most people who own a product or have rights to that product and can produce evidence to that effecet will invariably go to their Police Stations to lodge a complaint & make a report of FRAUD ,which to cut a long story short, will be or should be investigated and eBay contacted by the Cops to start the ball rolling where by the invesigation will need proof etc.....

.... and I am sure that if you are in the prodcut /molding etc business and you have the copyright then you should theoretically win hands down.He copies and then sells it as his own,,then that is copying/countrfeiting as it is NOT THE ORIGINAL..you shoud make the complaint to the Ebay before you lodge a compliant to the Cops , that way you have informed the E BAY that the perosn is infriging EBAY'S VeRO PROGRAM and that you will now report the matter to the Police for them to investgate the FRAUD .

I do so hope you guys get the Justice you want and this seller... RHINO MODLES.. gets suspended indefinitely.

Best of LUCK..

HOLMES

[Dave Williams]

According to eBay's VeRO page, ONLY the original right owner can make a complaint to eBay.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/vero-rights-owner.html

The way I read that is that only D-mold can make a claim for infringement under the program. All of the people here and on other forums who think that the Rhino stuff are copies can't just send claims to eBay. I suspect it would be similar for going to the police and claiming fraud. Only D-Mold is being potentially defrauded if his stuff is being copied and sold under a new name.

It seems that as far a legal action goes, D-mold is the only one who can take it. All others can do is choose to not buy things they believe are illegal copies.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Dave Williams

[chuck540z3]

Holmes- and others,

Since I first posted this alert, I have learned a lot about what resin makers do to make their products and what others do, like Paul Miller, to copy them. Most of the original products are made directly from the kit itself, so that the new resin fits perfectly. Using the various 1/32 F-4 resin intakes as an example, you will find that the rivet and panel line detail is identical to the Tamiya kit, so comparing a DMold F-4 intake to a Rhino intake in this area is inconclusive- and always will be.

When Mr. Miller sold me a set of DMold F-18 intakes 2 years ago, he was not only directly copying Dimitri's resin, he was handing them off as original DMold intakes, right down to the copied packaging. Dimitri did contact ebay at the time and Mr. Miller's account was then frozen. The intakes that Paul Miller was selling had several tiny casting flaws on the intakes, which were identical to Dimitri's, so proving that they were pirated was easy, notwithstanding the fraud of selling them as DMold originals.

Since that time, as described in detail earlier, Mr. Miller has re-surfaced under the Rhino name with a wide variety of products, including the 1/32 F-18 intakes. What he has done with these particular intakes is to change them, so that the 2 intake parts are now fused as one. It is now different enough that there's no way you can prove it was derived from DMold in the first place and ironically, he has actually made them a better product by eliminating the seam between the 2 parts. He has modified a lot of his other products as well, such as very small tweaks to the MK-1 Design F-18 engine nozzles, to make them "his" now.

The other issue is that most of the original makers of the resin kits are no longer in business like Cutting Edge, so there's nobody to complain to ebay or anybody else if these products are copied. Even if DMold complained again, the products that Mr. Miller now sells have changed enough that there's no way you can prove they were pirated in the first place. Bottom line is that Paul Miller gets away with it because he can, so all I can do it post a message like this thread to discourage others from buying from him and try to hurt his sales, even if it has a very minor impact.

Edited January 15, 2012 by chuck540z3

[HOLMES]

Chuck

Reading the link that goes back a while , I was wondering that DIMITRI STILL could report it even though it is 2 years since the initial counterfeiting/copying was made and churned out by Miller.

Dimitri stated in the previous threads that he was not aware of who the culprit was and now after almost 2 years the man responsible for fake parts has been identified [bY NAME and his NEW COMPANY NAME and even the name he may use on E BAY} and he could make the report coudn't he.....WELL I THINK SO.

....Fraud is such that it does not always come to light instantly like embezzlement or false good being sold in shops or markets or in the streets ; and I sincerley think that D MOLDS, Dimitri, should make the complaint even NOW after all this time has passed.He has been doing this for much longer than that thief therfore he will have models etc still to prove that he indeed was the SOLE producer of the parts that MILELR claims are his own...

All those modelers that bought things from Miller { Never knowing that they were fakes till you made the comparison or Dimitri mentioned it and you were made aware , and you all bought them in good faith at the time so you can't be complicit } will NO DOUBT stiil have those parts and IMHO you guys would be Dimitris witnesses on behalf of the Police.

The Cops would dig into any other fakes that he may be producing and passing them as his own...that is how counterfeiters work and how they are outed by searches and further investigations .{ many thieves like MILLER usually do other fakes as well, once they know they can get away with it and no one can do one iota about it ... }

Dimitri NEEDS TO REPORT IT EVEN NOW.TO THE POLICE as the Ebay have no real way to stop this guy but the Police do....

...Chuck you say that even if D MOLD complained agian there would be no eveidence to rpove that MILLER copied but there will be something that proves the case for Dimitri as he will have the blueprint[ you know what I mean..like templates etc.. } as it were that he used to make the VERY ORIGINAL parts.

You posted the photos in your thread here showing the differnece .DO you still have them ..they would be of evidential value...

I know it is a long shot but I think DIMITRI should definitley report it{ To his local Police station ..as FRAUD } and as many modelers as possible, who bought MILLERS fake stuff, but also have DMOLD stuff could make them available for the Police to see, if not seize for evidence for their investigaton { They usually return things at the end of the case if you make it known that you wish it to be returned }....I hope you guys have kept ther fake parts either on yourmodels or in storage.....Dimitri can always say that he has been tracking or making enquiries as to who stole his original ideas and parts and passed them as their own on EVIL BAY.....This is true as it has been ongoing for a little while now...

It makes ME seethe when thieves do this to honest people... Grrrr.

HOLMESY

[Dave Williams]

What "Police" are you talking about? Not sure how things are where you are, but there is no one "Police" in the US. The only "police" that might be applicable, would be in the either in the jurisdiction that Rhino or D-Mold operate out out. If I go to my local police in Florida and say I have some Rhino F-4 intakes and I think they are copies of the D-mold intakes they are going to look at me and tell me that they can't and won't do anything about it, and the same is probably going to be true for almost any of us. I doubt the police here will consider some postings of picture on forums here as real "evidence" that can be used is a criminal trial, or consider us all "witnesses" to fraud. Speaking for fraud, I think what is currently happening is intellectual property theft, not fraud in that the Rhino items are being sold as Rhino items and not as original D-mold items (although that might have been done in the past), and to be honest I doubt the local police really care that much about that. Not that they condone lawbreaking, but they likely don't have the resources to expend on analyzing relatively low volume and low dollar items like some resin parts for models.

If Dimitri wants to pursue it with eBay or his (or Rhino's) local authorities, I believe he should do so. But to be honest, he might have better luck with small claims court or Judge Judy. If he chooses to not pursue it, then the hard truth is that this guy will get away with it. As Chuck said, all "we" can do is choose to not buy the stuff, and I agree it will likely have a negligible impact.

[Scott R Wilson]

Just playing devil's advocate, I'm in no way condoning what Rhino is doing. But I have to ask, if the resin part makers can take the original kit part (Tamiya F-4 intake and duct for instance) and improve it and sell resin casts of the original part with improvements without the kit manufacturer's permission, how is that any different from Mr. Miller taking Dmitri's resin, improving it, and selling his cast of that? I understand it was obviously fraud when he was selling exact copies of Dmitri's parts under the D-mold name, but when Mr. Miller later improved or changed the parts and changed the name of the company doing the selling, that seems a little more gray to me. How much improvement does it take to make selling your parts okay without permission of the maker of the original part? Who decides these things if it doesn't end up in court? Don't flame me please, I really would like to understand the thinking here.

Scott W.

[chuck540z3]

Just playing devil's advocate, I'm in no way condoning what Rhino is doing. But I have to ask, if the resin part makers can take the original kit part (Tamiya F-4 intake and duct for instance) and improve it and sell resin casts of the original part with improvements without the kit manufacturer's permission, how is that any different from Mr. Miller taking Dmitri's resin, improving it, and selling his cast of that? I understand it was obviously fraud when he was selling exact copies of Dmitri's parts under the D-mold name, but when Mr. Miller later improved or changed the parts and changed the name of the company doing the selling, that seems a little more gray to me. How much improvement does it take to make selling your parts okay without permission of the maker of the original part? Who decides these things if it doesn't end up in court? Don't flame me please, I really would like to understand the thinking here.

Scott W.

The main difference is that the kit manufacturers do not suffer if somebody copies part of their kit to make an improvement to it. You can't use the new resin unless you buy the kit, so the manufacturers actually gain sales, not lose them, so they would be crazy to complain. Whenever there are copyright or other intellectual property law suits, you have to prove real damages. There are none in this case.

In the case of Mr. Miller copying DMold's resin, DMold obviously loses sales because there is now competition due to the pirated copies out there. One might argue that it's alright to copy products from companies like Cutting Edge, who are no longer in business, because nobody is "harmed". The flaw with this argument is what if the owner/creator of Cutting Edge wanted to get back into business, or sold his molds to somebody else to do the same thing, Mr. Miller has competitive copies of many of their products out there on ebay, which again reduces demand for sales of the original. Theft is still theft.

Now if somebody wanted to copy some Cutting Edge resin for their own personal use, there really is no harm and I don't think anybody should care, as long as they weren't sold for profit to the public.

As mentioned many times above, the police don't care because they're too busy with more important crimes with limited manpower, and a civil suit isn't worth the legal fees. What are the lost sales/damages to DMold in a year due to Mr. Miller's activities, even if it could be proven in court? $2,000? $10,000? I good law suit will cost you about $30K at $500 an hour for a decent lawyer, so you "lose" even if you win the lawsuit.

Edited January 15, 2012 by chuck540z3

[Scott R Wilson]

Thanks Chuck, I think I get it now. Too bad lawyers think they have to charge so much. My only experience with legal fees was my divorce some years ago. I'll tell you what, if I ever charged anyone that much money for doing that piddlin' little amount of work like my lawyer did for me, I'd be ashamed of myself. If there's ever a next time I'll just give her her everything she asks for and save money and aggravation in the long run.