F-22 Jet Is "Expensive Corroding Hangar Queen." McCain Says

[SBARC]

I remmeber in the '70's or '80's Fiat was using substanddard steel that had rust inside the steel. Some of the new Fiat cars were being delivered to the dealer with rust already forming on them.

[Scooby]

The opposite is true. Advanced technology means higher reliability and lower maintanence. It is an accepted requirement for the military planners today. A "hanger queen" with low combat ready rate is of no value to the men and women in uniform. To win in time of war, they train like crazy in time of peace. They do not polish their airplanes waiting for the enemy to come.

Being a former Navy aviator, McCain probably understands that better than most.

No it does not, it means you need more specialized training and more care. I worked maintenance in military aviation for 25 years so I think I have a clue at what I am saying. More systems mean more things can go wrong. Yes, each system is more reliable then the past but there is more to care for and the systems are more complex.

McCain is a corroding hanger queen himself. He is so far behind in current technology he should keep his trap shut.

Regardless what many may think, the development of stealth technology is still evolving and changing. Perhaps this corrosion issue is one the government decided to live with.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Scooby

[eharrold44]

This sounds like the USS Independence situation all over again. Or the USS Independence sounds like the F-22 situation all over again, however you want to look at it.

Seriously, how do design flaws like this end up in high-end military hardware? It can't be ignorance. In the case of the F-22, they flat out stated that they knew of the corrosion risk. So, is it willful negligence? It's kind of sad to see multi-billion dollar projects using the same logic as a three pack a day smoker- "Eh, there's a risk, but it won't happen to ME!" Why on Earth would you find it acceptable to build a jet or a ship with serious galvanic corrosion risks, especially in an era when the lifespan of military hardware is counted in decades instead of years? The carelessness is astounding to me.

[TaiidanTomcat]

McCain is a corroding hanger queen himself. He is so far behind in current technology he should keep his trap shut.

Im buying you a Beer

If its up to McCain its F-15s until they're 80 years old. thats “cost-prohibitive to sustain over the long run.” too, but we don't talk about that.

Its not a gentle curve, its exponentiation in value and cost. a 4th Generation fighter doesn't cost 4 times more than a first generation fighter, the number is actually about 64 times more expensive! But of course the 4th gen fighter can go twice the speed of sound, has its own radar, an ejection seat, etc. the 5th generation fighter once again adds a high cost, for a high reward.

Anytime I hear a politician whining about the Military industrial complex i don't know whether to laugh or cry. Its a system created by, "hated" by, and sustained by politicians. And any attempt to cut it is met with stiff resistance from all parties who stand to lose something. All politicians are for the abolishment of the complex, providing everything dismantled-- is rebuilt in their home state. Its politicians, not the military, and not the contractors, that created it. The civilian authorities (IE elected politicians) make the rules, make the laws, make the decisions, and have oversight over the entire system --and then they can't figure out why it is such a disaster.

"I blame the people in charge!" said the head of the armed services committee!

Lacking the courage to dismantle the system they created, the folks in charge have pretty much become firemen who realize they started a fire they can no longer control, and have decided to join in the crowd of spectators watching it burn while shouting "Someone should do something" trying to share the discontent, and blend in .

Edited December 17, 2011 by TaiidanTomcat

[C-130CrewChief]

The article said the corrosion issue was noted and the switch to titanium was over ruled. It was a gamble by engineering to save weight and assist stealth, not a blunder. I'm sure a serious risk assessment went on. Lockheed does NOT want to be the company that produced a corroded lemon!

[GreyGhost]

<....>

the 5th generation fighter once again adds a high cost, for a high reward.

Not exactly seeing a high return on the investment so far with either 5th Gen fighter program ...

Gregg

[The Rat]

"I blame the people in charge!" said the head of the armed services committee!

Physician, heal thyself.

[TaiidanTomcat]

Not exactly seeing a high return on the investment so far with either 5th Gen fighter program ...

Gregg

Gimme a war, I'll give you a winner.

[GreyGhost]

Gimme a war, I'll give you a winner.

When should we schedule that ?

Gregg

[TaiidanTomcat]

When should we schedule that ?

Gregg

I'm just pointing out that luckily the US doesn't build a weapon system and look for a victim, the F-22 can't really pick who and why we fight. It will fight when called, and succeed when it fights. Until then (like a lot of weapons) it waits.

[GreyGhost]

And I just hope it will be able to fight when and if it's called upon ...

Gregg

[fulcrum1]

One thing I'm sure of, if we need it, they will be used. Withstanding the Israeli F-15's, our own Eagles took awhile before they were proven. I'm actually a fan of this program and would have liked to seen a fleet of 350. The F-35 on the other hand........

[Raymond]

ditto

on the plus side they could re coat them; say in something more modeller-friendly? B)

[TaiidanTomcat]

And I just hope it will be able to fight when and if it's called upon ...

Gregg

It will be because you can "throw caution to the wind" and any kind of peacetime safety concerns go right out the window once the bullets start flying. And thats the way its been for decades. "if it flys, it fights"

[TaiidanTomcat]

ditto

on the plus side they could re coat them; say in something more modeller-friendly? B)

Hopefully white... Oh how many great white model hells I have been in :bandhead2:

[eharrold44]

A new weapon system with unexpected issues is fine with me, progress isn't easy. It's the arrogance of ignoring a basic engineering flaw for the sake of marginal performance gains that annoys me. Like I said before, I understand trying to get every last ounce of performance out of a jet, but risking long-term structural damage for slight gains doesn't seem like a good risk-reward situation to get yourself into.

I don't want to be too reactionary here, but it's tough not to when our state-of-the-art jets and ships are corroding and our stealth drones are (Maybe, don't know the whole story yet...) being redirected to hostile territory using relatively simple methods. It's been a pretty embarrassing year in terms of mostly avoidable technical problems.

[Aaronw]

Aaronw, very true, But when automakers put aluminum on steal, and they do, you get galvanic corrosion. I use rust as a general term and i apologize. I love when people come to my shop and tell me their aluminum hood is rusting.. ha ha...

I haven't run across that. If that is being done than yes definately a real problem. Funny I learned about that issue as a flunky working in the plumbing department of a hardware store, you know with the special bronze fittings used to join copper and steel pipe.

Im buying you a Beer

If its up to McCain its F-15s until they're 80 years old. thats “cost-prohibitive to sustain over the long run.†too, but we don't talk about that.

Its not a gentle curve, its exponentiation in value and cost. a 4th Generation fighter doesn't cost 4 times more than a first generation fighter, the number is actually about 64 times more expensive! But of course the 4th gen fighter can go twice the speed of sound, has its own radar, an ejection seat, etc. the 5th generation fighter once again adds a high cost, for a high reward.

Anytime I hear a politician whining about the Military industrial complex i don't know whether to laugh or cry. Its a system created by, "hated" by, and sustained by politicians. And any attempt to cut it is met with stiff resistance from all parties who stand to lose something. All politicians are for the abolishment of the complex, providing everything dismantled-- is rebuilt in their home state. Its politicians, not the military, and not the contractors, that created it. The civilian authorities (IE elected politicians) make the rules, make the laws, make the decisions, and have oversight over the entire system --and then they can't figure out why it is such a disaster.

"I blame the people in charge!" said the head of the armed services committee!

Lacking the courage to dismantle the system they created, the folks in charge have pretty much become firemen who realize they started a fire they can no longer control, and have decided to join in the crowd of spectators watching it burn while shouting "Someone should do something" trying to share the discontent, and blend in .

The daily show interviewed Lawrence Lessig who just wrote Republic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress--And a Plan to Stop It.

An interesting point was the place congress finds its self. If they really reform campaign contributions then they become unimportant. Businesses fund their campaigns to gain influence, remove the influence and congress loses its ability to arm twist for contributions. Without those contributions they would actually serve at the whim of the voters (the horror :blink: ). I'm grossly simplifying things but that was the authors main direction, fix the problems and congress reduces itself.

[TaiidanTomcat]

I haven't run across that. If that is being done than yes definately a real problem. Funny I learned about that issue as a flunky working in the plumbing department of a hardware store, you know with the special bronze fittings used to join copper and steel pipe.

The daily show interviewed Lawrence Lessig who just wrote Republic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress--And a Plan to Stop It.

An interesting point was the place congress finds its self. If they really reform campaign contributions then they become unimportant. Businesses fund their campaigns to gain influence, remove the influence and congress loses its ability to arm twist for contributions. Without those contributions they would actually serve at the whim of the voters (the horror :blink: ). I'm grossly simplifying things but that was the authors main direction, fix the problems and congress reduces itself.

At this point McCain probably thinks the F-22 is a waste because it can't detain American citizens indefinitely

on an unrelated note, I take back everything I have ever said that disagrees with the fine Senator from AZ...

[Scooby]

A new weapon system with unexpected issues is fine with me, progress isn't easy. It's the arrogance of ignoring a basic engineering flaw for the sake of marginal performance gains that annoys me. Like I said before, I understand trying to get every last ounce of performance out of a jet, but risking long-term structural damage for slight gains doesn't seem like a good risk-reward situation to get yourself into.

I don't want to be too reactionary here, but it's tough not to when our state-of-the-art jets and ships are corroding and our stealth drones are (Maybe, don't know the whole story yet...) being redirected to hostile territory using relatively simple methods. It's been a pretty embarrassing year in terms of mostly avoidable technical problems.

I don't think their is any ignorance at all in the development of this jet. There are two sides to every story and you have only heard McCains tainted side and have taken it as gosphel.

I know one thing, the F-22 is an impressive weapon flatform. My squadron was in the air at the same time as F-22s when we were in Tyndall and we couldn't see the jets on radar at all.

Everything is 20/20 after the fact.

[xv107]

At this point McCain probably thinks the F-22 is a waste because it can't detain American citizens indefinitely

Yes, but at least one of them made some effort to try to win his approval...

(Link)

[eharrold44]

I don't think their is any ignorance at all in the development of this jet. There are two sides to every story and you have only heard McCains tainted side and have taken it as gosphel.

I know one thing, the F-22 is an impressive weapon flatform. My squadron was in the air at the same time as F-22s when we were in Tyndall and we couldn't see the jets on radar at all.

Everything is 20/20 after the fact.

I was reacting to the article about F-22 corrosion posted on Page 2, not McCain.

[Julien (UK)]

On a tangent is the F-22 flying again or is it still grounded?

Julien

[Berkut]

On a tangent is the F-22 flying again or is it still grounded?

Julien

Flying.

[Bonehammer73]

I remmeber in the '70's or '80's Fiat was using substanddard steel that had rust inside the steel. Some of the new Fiat cars were being delivered to the dealer with rust already forming on them.

It was not substandard steel, it was poor preparation due to low workplace morale if not deliberate sabotage. "Luxury" sedans were especially subjected to the latter, but all models could be involved; frames would be left out in the rain or hastily blasted with dirty water. What with the social/political climate in those years, for a production manager to take QC too seriously would mean taking potshots from a P-38 or a Skorpion when leaving the factory.

And it's happening again, from Sicily to Poland. Now not because of unrealistic demands from "red" movements but because Fiat is the Wal-mart of the automotive world.

[Kei Lau]

LA Times: Fatal problems plague the F-22, the U.S.' costliest fighter jet

Last week's report generated much debate over whether the Air Force turned Haney, an experienced and award-winning aviator, into a scapegoat to escape more criticism of the F-22.

Haney "most likely experienced a sense similar to suffocation," the report said. "This was likely [Haney's] first experience under such physiological duress."

To save himself and the plane, Haney should have leaned over and with a gloved hand pulled a silver-dollar-size green ring that was under his seat by his left thigh to engage the emergency system, the report said.

It takes 40 pounds of pull to engage the emergency system. That's a tall order for a man who has gone nearly a minute without a breath of air, speeding faster than sound, while wearing bulky weather gear, said Michael Barr, a former Air Force fighter pilot and former accident investigation officer.

"It would've taken superhuman efforts on the pilot's behalf to save that aircraft," he said. "The initial cause of this accident was a malfunction with the aircraft -- not the pilot."

Barr said the Air Force blamed Haney because the brass doesn't want more criticism of the F-22 program, which will cost an estimated $77 billion and whose need was called into question even before its first test flight.

I am not sure how accurate is this LA Times report, but it is evident that the AF Accident report had generated controversy.

Previous oxygen systems in fighter jets used a separate bottle that fed air to pilots. In an F-22, the air intake system uses air from the jet engine's compressor section to supply oxygen for pilots.

Last week's report found that when the air intake system malfunctioned, the jet shut down multiple systems, including oxygen supply, to protect itself from further damage, as designed. Therefore the oxygen system was not at fault, the Air Force said.

If this is true, it is even more sad. The F-22 seemed to be designed to protect the aircraft ahead of the pilot. For many years, the motto for the USAF fighter design is "Bring the Pilot Home". It is indeed a fatal design fault if the F-22 does not have an automatic backup systme of oxygen supply when the engine air intake malfunction. I am speechless.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Kei Lau