thatguy96 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) Are we sure the 530Fs aren't from the 160th? In 1989, the Army Engineering Flight Activity published an airworthiness and flight characteristics review on the 530FF, which it had conducted in support of the plan to upgrade MH-6E and AH-6F with the 530FF engine and powertrain to form the AH-6G and MH-6H. Maybe the 530FFs that the Army acquired for those tests went to the 160th, as well. See: www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a218253.pdf Edited December 13, 2017 by thatguy96 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
usmcski6502 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Can you post a link to the other thread, Floyd? I'd like to see the battle from the Somalis point of view. Cheers, Ski Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 2 hours ago, usmcski6502 said: Can you post a link to the other thread, Floyd? I'd like to see the battle from the Somalis point of view. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
usmcski6502 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Wow, Floyd. I have NEVER seen that before, thanks for posting! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 On 12/12/2017 at 4:19 PM, Loach Driver said: Further to the mysterious 530Fs in Somalia, this photo was posted here some time back. At the time, I think it was reckoned these 530Fs were FBI HRT machines. Can anyone identify the equipment on the group in the foreground. Are they US Miliatry Special Operators or could they be FBI HRT personnel? If they are US Spec Ops operators, then maybe the 530Fs in the background belong to the Army and are the same helicopters as seen in Somalia. It looks like the 530F on the left might also have the Batwing antenna on the tailboom which is something no FBI HRT 530F has been seen with, which to me points to these being Army Spec Ops helicopters. LD. Don't think you would ever be able to conclusively ID their unit, unless someone "in the know" chimes in. Higher level military spec ops troops have a wide latitude in uniforms, gear and weapons, so these guys could be any number of military or law enforcement operators. Regarding the 530's, I posted this pic a ways back. It's got the batwing antenna, consensus was at the time, it's a privately owned helo that contracts out to various law enforcement agencies for training support. Who knows for sure though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 Yea, it is hard to tell who operated the 530Fs in that photo in my last post. It could be the FBI HRT or Spiral Wing Aviation or, now, it could be the guys who had the 530Fs in Somalia. The more we dig, the more confused we get. I guess that's what they want! LD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted December 14, 2017 Author Share Posted December 14, 2017 On 13/12/2017 at 2:24 AM, thatguy96 said: Are we sure the 530Fs aren't from the 160th? No, the problem is we are not sure of anything! That test report refers to the MD530F but it then goes on to explain the configuration of the AH-6G/MH-6H. It basically describes the new helicopter as being a 500D with the 530F power train, longer main rotor and tail rotor with tailboom extension and the C-30 engine. It does mention that the 500D transmission was retained and thus it had a lower torque limit than a full-spec 530F. As a result, it appears the army never acquired a standard-production 530F and any data from it would not have assisted in gaining an airworthiness release for the AH-6G/MH-6H as it has a greater performance at certain altitudes than the converted Little Bird. The airframe featured in the test report is, coincidentally, 84-24319, which it appears was one of the AH-6 airframes flown in Somalia in 1993! LD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatguy96 Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Always more questions rather than answers heh. Well then I'm glad I shared the report to add to the existing information. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sky Dancer Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 For what it's worth, a couple of comments re. the photo of the 7 operators with the two blue "Littlebirds" 1. I'm not sure that that is a Batwing fitted to the lead airframe. To my eyes the forward rake of the object isn't sharp enough for a batwing - but I could be mistaken. The pilot appears to be dressed casually, possibly wearing jeans? 2. The operators themselves - There is some variation visible on the kit fitted to the plates, dependent on role, but it is all remarkably uniform. Hard to tell due to resolution but:- Operator No.1 (front row, far left) appears to be the M.O.E. guy (Method of Entry, you call him a breacher). Again hard to tell, but could that be a shotgun he has attached from the pistol grip to his plate carrier by a bungee? Gun itself is slung behind the holster of his side-arm. Has a torch slung under the forearm of his weapon - SFOD-D operators in Op. Gothic Serpent famously had their shotgun fitted here for breaching purposes. Operator No.2 (front row, 2nd from left) appears to have 4 x "Hatton" or "Irritant" rounds on his upper chest (spares for MOE guy? - not unusual). These are 12 bore shotgun rounds. Problem is I'm basing this on the colour of the rounds, and these are the colour of the British rounds, not U.S. and, in addition, I'm not sure the size of these objects (Might be too big for 12 bore cartridges). Operator No.4 (front row, far right) & Operator No.6 (back row, middle) - team leaders, based on their comms set up. Operator No.5 (back row, left), Operator No.3 (front row, 3rd from left) as well as Operators 1 & 6 all seem to have pistol mag pouches on the upper chest on their plates. As for Operator No.8 - he is taking the photo. The pistols - the next part of the conundrum. Judging by Operator No.1 and the size of his holster, to my eyes at least that is a pretty big side-arm, and it doesn't seem to be low-slung. Again it's hard to tell because its not a clear photo and that area is in shadow, but the only pistol I know that would be that size would be a HK Mk.23 - US SF issue. Apart from the pistol, and I could be very wrong in my interpretation of this (and everything else), my gut instinct is that these guys are FBI - but are they SWAT or HRT? My understanding was that HRT were usually ex-Tier 1 operators, or at least ex-SF or ex-SEAL - but who nows? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 Thanks, Sky Dancer. Sadly, these 530s in that photo are probably FBI, and not Seaspray. I found an old pilot resume for a guy stating that he flew with Flight Concepts Division. He listed the following types as being ones flown by him during his time with FCD; S-76B, UH60A/L, B407, B412EP, AS350B2/B3, AS355, BK117, MD500/530, Mi-17, AB139. The list was dated 2009. It looks like the 500 and 530F could still be active with this unit. Interesting that he not only mentioned 530F but also the "500". LD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sky Dancer Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) Hi LD, Thanks, but I was wrong on at least one thing - that is a Batwing fitted to the 530. There's a picture of one landing on top of a B747, with a Batwing in the same location - think it was posted, or at least referred to, by 11Bee. The photo was in a thread somewhere prior to "The Great Photobucket Incident". There are other photos on the web of FBI 530's which show them with a long (flat) mounting on the tail boom in the same general area - but mostly they seem to have a single white aerial fitted on it, but when fitted, the batwing is also positioned there. Why does the FBI still use a batwing (on their B407 and B412's anyway), whenever the military have moved to the "egg-beater' aerial? As 11Bee also stated, the Operators could be from any military or law enforcement unit. It seems that post-9/11, everybody is wearing kit like this. They are definitely set up for Dynamic Entry/Intervention Ops, but it is still my view that they are not a Tier 1 or "Super Secret Squirrel Unit" - their kit isn't "special" enough. Your comment about the pilots resume for the Flight Concepts Division is very, very interesting. Why, very specifically, mention both the 500 & 530? The remainder of types he mentions is also of interest - B407 and B412EP (as well as 530) - all used by FBI. The Mi-17 - obviously of use in Middle East and other foreign climes. I know it's off-topic, but what really stands out, in my eyes, is the mention of the S-76B and BK117. In the early 2000's I read an article here in the U.K. concerning an armed response team attached to the Department of Energy, basically a SWAT team, tasked with responding to incidents at nuclear facilities in the U.S. There was a photo (maybe even two) of a team beside a BK117. It was painted in what I would term "corporate" colours, as far as I can recall, it was dark grey with a lighter grey trim. Also from memory, it was fitted with either a nose radar or FLIR (I can't remember which). The photo showed it's "N" number, I researched it at the time, but cannot remember the result - I'm not sure if FAA Registry had gone online at that point. What really stuck out in the text of the article was that this BK177 could be fitted with an M60. There was no elaboration, no photos, but the impression I got (maybe wrongly) was that this was door mounted. I'm sure I kept the article somewhere; I wondered about the legality of operating an "N" registered airframe with such a weapon. As for the S76B, I came across a photo of one within the last few months, again in "corporate" grey colours, but with at least one (possibly two) SATCOM aerials on its rear fuselage - not sure of its designation, but similar to the CV-22 and "heavy" type aerials. It was captioned as belonging to the Department of Homeland Security. I will look at these photos with renewed interest.... Sorry for going off-topic Update & Correction - 1. Re. the comment about the S76B's - these are not Satcom aerials, they are 2 x radio aerials, the standard military secure ones (not sure of designation). They are visible on N844LC and N159CM. 2. Department of Homeland Security also operates AW139 - so this pilot appears to have flown airframes in both the FBI and DoHS fleets. Edited December 17, 2017 by Sky Dancer Correction of info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted December 17, 2017 Author Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) The 530F resting on the 747 is, as far as I know, an aircraft operated by a company called Spiral Wing Aviation. http://www.spiralwingaviation.com/ It is a well kitted-out 530F for what is a civilian, commercial aircraft (if it is company-owned aircraft and not an FBI or FCD fleet aircraft being used for training). Some photos of that BK117 would be interesting.(Mission Impossible II might not have been too far off the mark! ) LD. Edited December 17, 2017 by Loach Driver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sky Dancer Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Hi LD, Knew I had the pics somewhere, not a great quality scan as the article was printed on low quality paper. The article was based around the Savannah River Site Special Response Team; the aviation aspect received a paragraph or two and was referred, confusingly, to as the Aviation Operations Unit, the Aviation Operations Department and the Aviation Operations Division all within the same paragraph. Article stated that the BK117 was fitted with FLIR, Nightsun and had an NVG-compatible cockpit, adding that pilots used NVG's. Article continued that there were 2 x hell's, these carried an M60E3 which "can be used dismounted in a ground support mode if need be." Bit of research suggests that the airframes are N116SR and N117SR, they are still current, albeit the colour scheme has changed slightly. I promise not to drift off-thread in the future! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted December 17, 2017 Author Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) No need to apologise for thread-drift. The information on the background of these other types helps build up a picture of the 500?530 fleet and its possible use. Personally, I am fascinated by these modified special-use aircraft. That BK117 is VERY interesting and that photo alone could inspire a model or two. Thanks for posting it. Can you say what year the photo was taken or the year the article was printed? Here is a resume for a Savannah River Site SRT operator; Work Experience SPECIAL RESPONSE TEAM OPERATOR WACKENHUT COPORATION - Aiken, SC 2007 to Present Assignment: DOE Savannah River Site Responsible for protection of special nuclear material Counter terrorist operation Personal protection, Hostage rescue Perform close quarter battle and dynamic operations Aviation assets, provide aerial insertion, extractions and fire support Provide security over-watch for convoy operations Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical incident response Conducts Ground, Helicopter and Recapture fire team missions Executes response to active shooters and barricaded suspects Vehicle assaults and takedowns Apprehension and detention of suspects Implements protest, demonstrations and crowd controls Aggressive Tactical Team member trained to operate in any environment Here is possibly N117SR BK117 pictured in 2006. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Protective_Forces#/media/File:Protective_Forces_helicopter.jpg This has a more modern FLIR unit and it's also fitted with a downlink antenna on the skid. LD. Edited December 17, 2017 by Loach Driver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Loach Driver said: This has a more modern FLIR unit and it's also fitted with a downlink antenna on the skid. LD. Pretty impressive helo... can't say the same thing about those "operators". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sky Dancer Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Hi again LD, I am also fascinated by them, I label them "Spooks, Sneaks and Freaks"!! I am pretty sure the article was from 2001, it was in a British defence-type magazine. Cannot find the exact article, as I didn't keep it all, but an internet search showed that there was an issue of "Special Ops: Journal of Elite Forces and SWAT Units" Volume 14 which features the Savannah River Site SRT. This was published by Concord Publications on June 15, 2001. The article was written by Joel B. Paskauskas II. He must have sold his article to the British mag too. There's a copy of the "Special Ops" publication on Amazon, the front cover has a photo of an SRT team and aircrew in front of a BK117, but not much of the airframe can be seen. That photo was also in the British mag. The article was in no way an in-depth analysis of the Unit, but the photo of the BK117, and the mention of the M60, definitely attracted my attention. Interestingly, the BK117's seen to have lost the box-type particle separator in the intervening period. If nothing else, it shows that there is at least one government agency using the BK117...... Bearing in mind the resume you posted of the Flight Concepts Division pilot, and his experience on type, does this suggest that the Flight Concepts Division has access to any, or all, government aircraft? Or at least uses similar airframes, perhaps as part of "plausible deniability"? Perhaps it's time to make a tin foil hat..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 13 hours ago, Sky Dancer said: Hi LD, Thanks, but I was wrong on at least one thing - that is a Batwing fitted to the 530. There's a picture of one landing on top of a B747, with a Batwing in the same location - think it was posted, or at least referred to, by 11Bee. The photo was in a thread somewhere prior to "The Great Photobucket Incident". Your comment about the pilots resume for the Flight Concepts Division is very, very interesting. Why, very specifically, mention both the 500 & 530? The remainder of types he mentions is also of interest - B407 and B412EP (as well as 530) - all used by FBI. The Mi-17 - obviously of use in Middle East and other foreign climes. Sky - for whatever it's worth, in a previous thread a couple of years back - I mentioned that in viewing some Google Earth pics of Ft. Eustis, VA (the home of Flight Concepts or whatever they currently go by), I noted a couple of Bell 407's on the ramp. Found it interesting, for the same reasons you mentioned above. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sky Dancer Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Hi 11Bee, I remember that previous thread - IIRC there was a 'Hip' on the ramp too......? Just checked Google , they're still there! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rlangdale Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Not sure if this would qualify as "special operations", But i came across these while looking for something else and thought you all might be interested (if this has not already been brought up) https://sobchak.wordpress.com/tag/hughes-500p/ https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-cia-built-a-special-helicopter-to-sneak-into-north-vietnam-b1bb0ea35a7b Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrittMac Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 On 12/21/2017 at 12:21 PM, rlangdale said: Not sure if this would qualify as "special operations", But i came across these while looking for something else and thought you all might be interested (if this has not already been brought up) https://sobchak.wordpress.com/tag/hughes-500p/ https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-cia-built-a-special-helicopter-to-sneak-into-north-vietnam-b1bb0ea35a7b Ha! There is a photo credit to our very own Ray in the medium.com article. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 Since we are on the subject of "other" US goverment helo operators, thought this story would be of interest. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12616/unmasking-the-s-92-mystery-helicopter-in-syria-which-was-spotted-again-near-raqqa Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted December 26, 2017 Author Share Posted December 26, 2017 Two weeks back, I posted a question up on Pprune about the armed H-76 Eagle and a possible spec ops link. A pilot there replied that he did an S-92 conversion course and 50% of his class mates were from Flight Concepts Division. They had business cards and all! That's not proof that these S-92s are FCD but......... LD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Loach Driver said: Two weeks back, I posted a question up on Pprune about the armed H-76 Eagle and a possible spec ops link. A pilot there replied that he did an S-92 conversion course and 50% of his class mates were from Flight Concepts Division. They had business cards and all! That's not proof that these S-92s are FCD but......... LD. Is FCD still in business? Figured they would have changed names by now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Loach Driver Posted December 26, 2017 Author Share Posted December 26, 2017 52 minutes ago, 11bee said: Is FCD still in business? Figured they would have changed names by now. I'd imagine they are still in business but under what name, now, who knows? I'd guess that the S-92 course they were on took place some time ago, maybe 2010 or even before. LD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Loach Driver said: I'd imagine they are still in business but under what name, now, who knows? I'd guess that the S-92 course they were on took place some time ago, maybe 2010 or even before. LD. Ahh.... I see. Thought this course was recent. I’m sure this unit is still active. Be surprised though if they still go by FCD. On another related note, Army just inked a big contract to supply a wide range of Bell helos to foreign governments and various US “government agencies”. Be interesting to see where all these helos wind up. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17175/the-us-army-wants-to-buy-150-helicopters-for-allies-and-other-government-agencies Edited December 27, 2017 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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