Barneydhc82 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I have the huge box of plastic bits and pieces which I hope to finish in RCAF post-war Reserve squadron markings, probably 442 Sqn City of Vancouver. I have quite a few reference photos of the various squadrons' aircraft and the question of the prop type seems to be hit-and-miss. Some have the cuffed Hamilton Standard and some have the Aero Products prop. The Tamiya kit has the HS cuffed prop which I am not about to try modifying. SO...is there an Aero Products 1:32 scale prop available for this kit???????? Some other interesting notes: The wings were bare metal without the panel lines being filled; the control surfaces were painted aluminum, during their later years some if not all airframes were painted with aluminum lacquer as a corrosion prevention; and the interior colours have been talked about on previous threads. With all of the P-51 models being built in various scales , and in RCAF markings, maybe we need to keep this thread going as a one source reference guide that might help the folks who do not have ready info. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Post-war RCAF Mustangs had either the cuffed Hamilton Standard prop, or the cuffless square-tipped prop...no Aeroproduct props as seen during the Second World War. The props were finished in a variety of ways. Some of the cuffed props were black with yellow tips as we are accustomed to. Some had the front of the blades finished in aluminum, with only the cuff in black and the tips yellow. The backs of these were black. Some of the cuffless props were finished with the front in aluminum, and the backs in black except for approx. 12" of the root, which were also aluminum. Yellow tips as usual. As per the usual rule, you are safest if you have a photo of the aircraft you are building. Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pep Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I believe the most viable source for the prop blades is the monogram mustang. But even then i think the spiner is diferent as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) I take it then that the cuffless blades (post-war) were not Aeroproducts but Hamilton Standard and these were used on some of the RCAF Auxilliary squadron aircraft. I have quite a few photos of the Aux Mustangs but very few with the cuffed blades. 403 Squadron had a couple aircraft with the cuffed blades. The spinners on the post war RCAF Mustangs all appear to be the same for both types of props but then again these old eyes arn't as sharp as they once were. Barney Edited December 27, 2011 by Barneydhc82 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
A340pilot Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I take it then that the cuffless blades (post-war) were not Aeroproducts but Hamilton Standard and these were used on some of the RCAF Auxilliary squadron aircraft. I have quite a few photos of the Aux Mustangs but very few with the cuffed blades. 403 Squadron had a couple aircraft with the cuffed blades. The spinners on the post war RCAF Mustangs all appear to be the same for both types of props but then again these old eyes arn't as sharp as they once were. Barney You may try Ultracast and/or Grey Matter Figures for the various props and correct spinners. Stein Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) I take it then that the cuffless blades (post-war) were not Aeroproducts but Hamilton Standard and these were used on some of the RCAF Auxilliary squadron aircraft. Barney Hi Barney, You're right, the cuffless blades were Hamilton Standard as well. There were also quite a number of props with cuffed Hamilton Standard blades, I'm trying to do a little census of all the RCAF Mustangs for which I have photos. Some strange things show up too...I have one photo of what is clearly cuffless Hamilton Standard blades (aluminum coloured, not black) with the square tips, but with an Aeroproduct decal on it? What I'd like to do is put together a little guide to equipment/modifications seen on Canadian Mustangs, for example all the things seen behind the pilot's armour under the canopy like "ferry packs" with a cover for pilot luggage/equipment, or the small clear bubble covering the loop for the radio compass, the radio fits etc. Also the modifications, like which aircraft had the cooling slots on the radiator doghouse, cockpit colours, tires etc. For the time being I'm working on a guide like this for at least the aircraft featured on the Leading Edge decals sheets. As for finding cuffless Hamilton Standard blades in 1/32, I think Jerry Rutman did a set and they have passed to Grey Matter now. Not sure if they have re-released them yet. The old Monogram kit has them, but I thought I'd read somewhere that there is a slight discrepancy in the length of the blades...probably not enough to be noticed. The spinners were the same, only the openings for the blades differed for the K model. Since all of ours were Hamilton Standard they should all be the same. Not sure where this idea that there was a spinner with different proportions produced for post-war Mustangs? Christian may step in here as he is very knowledgeable about the P-51. Cheers, Richard Edited December 27, 2011 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Hi Richard: I've been going through all of my books and the post-war Mustangs really were a mixed bag. I've been seeing both cuffed and cuffless Hamilton Standard props..for example 9288 has the cuffed blades as do a few others...mostly in the 92xx serials. The cuffless blades were used later in the war and post-war as the cuffed blades were corroding under the cuff. The cuff apparently was used to add cooling to the engine while ground running but the other blades gave the same amount of cooling if the aircraft was pointed into wind on the ground and no more than 1200 RPM was used. Got this from Jerry "Cottonmouth" Janes. I've started my Mustang but with only one good eye and arthritic fingers it is a slow build. I've already "pingged" 3 photo-etched pieces into the jaws of the carpet monster. Regards Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ron Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Post-war RCAF Mustangs had either the cuffed Hamilton Standard prop, or the cuffless square-tipped prop...no Aeroproduct props as seen during the Second World War. I beg to differ and strongly disagree.... Looks like Aeroproducts to me? not square tipped and no cuff..... Grey Matter Figures sells a 1/32 Aeroproducts Prop prefect for what you are looking for (yes it is mastered by Jerry Rutman).....Link and you can find a review of it that I did over at LSP...Review Grey Matter Figures sells a 1/32 Aeroproducts Prop prefect for what you are looking for.....Link and you can find a review of it that I did over at LSP...Review Edited January 6, 2012 by ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) I beg to differ and strongly disagree.... Looks like Aeroproducts to me? not square tipped and no cuff..... Grey Matter Figures sells a 1/32 Aeroproducts Prop prefect for what you are looking for (yes it is mastered by Jerry Rutman and you can find a review of it that I did over at LSP Grey Matter Figures sells a 1/32 Aeroproducts Prop prefect for what you are looking for and you can find a review of it that I did over at LSP...Review Hello Ron, The profiles of the Aeroproduct blades are somewhat different to what you see here, and the spinners also have different openings to accomodate the Aeroproduct blades. The RCAF chose D models and standardized on the D-20, -25 and -30 to simplify spares and repair issues. I'm sure the Americans were doing the same for their front line and Air National Guard units. Perhaps Christian (aka Tourist) can weigh in on how/when the Aeroproducts props were phased out. By square-tipped I don't mean a sharp chisel end, but the tips are broader across the end than the standard HS, or the Aeroprop. It is there in the photos you posted too if you look closely. I'll have access to the RCAF engineering and repair manuals, as well as the procurement, equipment and supplies documents in a week or so. Hopefully I can find extracts that will confirm this. I've posted a few photos of mostly 403 Squadron aircraft from the front with the Hamilton Standard logo clearly showing, including one with cuffed and one with cuffless. I've also posted a photo of my Dad in front of a wartime 303 Squadron Mustang IV with Aeroproduct prop. I hope it will show the subtle difference in profile and pointier tips to the Aeroproduct blades. Your model is beautifully finished Ron and looks spectacular. You are free to interpret those props as you like and to build your model as you wish, but the props were simply not Aeroproduct. I don't intend that to sound argumentative or confrontational, just trying to set out the evidence. I think Red Roo sells 1/32 cuffless HS blades, but unfortunately they're not sold separately but part of a package of other upgrades. I know Jerry Rutman did a set too, but so far they haven't shown up on the Grey Matter site yet. Richard Mustang IV, 303 Kosciuszko (Polish) Squadron 1946 Edited January 6, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Hi Richard: I've been going through all of my books and the post-war Mustangs really were a mixed bag. I've been seeing both cuffed and cuffless Hamilton Standard props..for example 9288 has the cuffed blades as do a few others...mostly in the 92xx serials. The cuffless blades were used later in the war and post-war as the cuffed blades were corroding under the cuff. The cuff apparently was used to add cooling to the engine while ground running but the other blades gave the same amount of cooling if the aircraft was pointed into wind on the ground and no more than 1200 RPM was used. Got this from Jerry "Cottonmouth" Janes. I've started my Mustang but with only one good eye and arthritic fingers it is a slow build. I've already "pingged" 3 photo-etched pieces into the jaws of the carpet monster. Regards Barney Thanks Barney for that information from Jerry Janes! Does he still have Cottonmouth or did she go South? I can remember meeting him at the Hamilton Airshow in the early 80s...if I remember there were 18 Mustangs over that weekend and I brought my Dad who was an engine fitter on Mustangs during the war. I will never forget his face watching them taxi by, crackling and grumbling away like Mustangs do. Leading Edge is about to release the 1/32 sheet of Western Squadron RCAF Mustangs very soon, and there will a 442 Squadron aircraft on it. Should be the same markings as on the 1/48 sheet. I'll be building at least one RCAF Mustang, first up will be a 424 Squadron machine...I love the tiger logo. I sympathize with the one eye thing...I had a detached retina last year and still learning to cope with the reduced vision. It'll be great to see another one of your builds. Cheers, Richard Edited January 6, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I beg to differ and strongly disagree.... Both of those pics show uncuffed HS props. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 This is the type of info that I would like to see posted here on CDN Mustangs. I had lunch recently with Jerry Janes and Dennis Bradley and of course the talk was about Mustangs..what else! Both of these guys are very knowledgable on the type and I too would like to do BA*U, Dennis' aircraft. "Cottonmouth" went to a lawyer in the USA quite a few years ago and since then there has been "Cottonmouth II", a T20 Seafury with a 3350 installed (Race 20) and "Cottonmouth III" a Grumman HU-16A in RCAF markings...yeh I know we used :B" but you can only do what is available. I got a lot of right seat time in the big boat with trips to Midland and Chino. Ron, I checked the websites with no luck on the cuffless HS props and with the mix of blade types I'll just have to go with what I have in the kit. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) ...no luck on the cuffless HS props and with the mix of blade types I'll just have to go with what I have in the kit. Barney Barney, I'm pretty sure I have a couple of the Monogram cuffless props from their old 1/32 kit. The 442 Squadron machine on the Leading Edge Decal sheet had them. Give me a couple of days and I'll locate them in my stash, I'll have to find them for myself anyway. I'm sure you'll be able to fit them on the Tamiya kit. I'll drop you a line when I do and get your address. AS for your lunch with Jerry Janes and Dennis Bradley...would love to have been a fly on the wall!! I'm curious about your connection with them. I sure miss the Canadian Warplane Heritage Airshows of the 1980s. They are planning a 40th anniversary show for this year, and want to recreate those shows. I believe that the B-29 Fifi is coming, among a swarm of other warbirds. I'll get back to you over the weekend sometime. Richard Edited January 6, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ron Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Hello Ron, I don't intend that to sound argumentative or confrontational, just trying to set out the evidence. Hey, I didn't take that way at all. I've always thought they had a hodge podge of all three props judging from the pictures I have. I was absolutely convinced the pic of PR590 I posted was with an Aeroproduct prop! Ron Edited January 6, 2012 by ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Richard: I've known Jerry as a good friend for more than 30 years and I've flown a number of his aircraft in that time. I've also "worked" him in the circuit at Pitt Meadows and Boundary Bay and it was fun..but the rules were stretched a bit to accommodate his requests. Better discussed over a beer..or two! I have met Dennis a couple of times through Jerry . The last time we talked about his having to "dead stick" his Mustang on a farm access road and even though the aircraft was completely destroyed, he walked away without a scratch. As for the Mustang kit, I want to build it as close to accurate as possible as it was while in service with the RCAF. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Hey, I didn't take that way at all. I've always thought they had a hodge podge of all three props judging from the pictures I have. I was absolutely convinced the pic of PR590 I posted was with an Aeroproduct prop! Ron Thanks Ron for reading it the way it was intended. You never know how a posting on the internet comes across to someone else. I didn't want to sound huffy or like a know-it-all, especially with the excellent work you did on the model...and I haven't started mine! It is kind of frustrating that the correct prop isn't readily available at the moment. Richard Edited January 6, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) As for the Mustang kit, I want to build it as close to accurate as possible as it was while in service with the RCAF. Barney Barney, The 1/32 decal sheet from Leading Edge is to be released on the 15th, and the Western aircraft will be first. Looks like Dave will be including the resin compass loop housing (although you won't need it on the 442 machine) I found my Monogram cuffless Hamilton Standard props and sent you a note. Here is the 442 Squadron aircraft on the sheet, BU-N/9595. Note the personal name "Jeff" under the cockpit, and the large fuselage roundels and codes. It also had red rimmed wheels with white spokes and a black hub. Something a bit different. Here is the decal sheet preview from Leading Edge: The 1/72 scale decals are being released too for those who build in that scale.The link to their page:Leading Edge Decals Cheers, Richard Edited January 10, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The spinners were the same, only the openings for the blades differed for the K model. Since all of ours were Hamilton Standard they should all be the same. Not sure where this idea that there was a spinner with different proportions produced for post-war Mustangs? The shorter spinner myth may come from the fact that the P-51K spinner for the Aeroproducts propeller had a slightly longer backing plate. This means the front part of the spinner was a little shorter even though the whole thing had the same dimensions as the "regular" P-51D spinner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks for the info guys. I've started the model with most of the interior finished but having a terrible time with the tiny photo-etched bits. The steel pins that are supposed to go through the ends of the PE actuators are too large for the holes and...ping!..there goes another one. Reading Milberry's big book on the RCAF post war solved one of my questions..which gun sight? It was the K-14 as specified in the purchase contract. And all those tiny clear parts certainly stressed my patience to the limit. I'll post pics later Richard, your PM was blocked by my security as very suspicious. I'll have to try again when my Chief of Administration (wife) wakes up as she knows more about this dumb box than I do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Richard, your PM was blocked by my security as very suspicious. I'll have to try again when my Chief of Administration (wife) wakes up as she knows more about this dumb box than I do. That's not uncommon with the messages from websites...although I've been called worse than "suspicious"! I was just writing to get your street address so I could send you the Hamilton Standard cuffless prop from the 1/32 Monogram kit. To be honest it's quite nice, with even the subtle amount of twist in the blade. I found the two I had, and would be happy to send you one of them so you can hang the correct prop on the front. That'll leave me with one set for my 424 Squadron machine, and the next RCAF Mustang I want to do (early 402 Squadron) has cuffed blades. By the time I do a third (!) I'm sure someone will have resin cuffless ones available. You can just send me a message here. Cheers, Richard Edited January 9, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 That's not uncommon with the messages from websites...although I've been called worse than "suspicious"! I was just writing to get your street address so I could send you the Hamilton Standard cuffless prop from the 1/32 Monogram kit. To be honest it's quite nice, with even the subtle amount of twist in the blade. I found the two I had, and would be happy to send you one of them so you can hang the correct prop on the front. That'll leave me with one set for my 424 Squadron machine, and the next RCAF Mustang I want to do (early 402 Squadron) has cuffed blades. By the time I do a third (!) I'm sure someone will have resin cuffless ones available. You can just send me a message here. Cheers, Richard Many thanks Richard. What can I send you in exchange? B.K. Dunlevy 14093-16 Ave Surrey, BC V4A 1P9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks Barney, I'll get them in the mail tomorrow. No need for anything in exchange...unless you've got RCAF Mustang photos I might not have seen... :) Seriously though, glad to help. Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Greatly appreciated Richard. Now a question for those that have built the 1:32 scale Tamiya Mustang: How many have used all of the mini magnets and photo-etch to finish the model????. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 After much frustration I have gotten into this complicated beast and managed to recover many small pieces from the carpet monster. I know that the Green Zinc Chromate may not be accurate but I could not find the Yellow Z/C...could it be that McDonald Bros who did the acceptance maintenance when these a/c were first delivered, used what was on hand??? Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Just a tip for installing all those wee magnets. After many frustrating attempts at installing the magnets only to have them pop out and attach themselves to nearby tools, I tried using the tools to assist in my efforts. I use a flat handled scalple knife so I taped the part to receive the magnet to the handle then seperated the strip of magnets...and stuck the one in use to the tape. Using a toothpick with a small dab of Yellow Tac on the tip, I pick up the magnet. Place a drop of Super Glue in the hole and then place the magnet..which is attracted to the handle under the tape...no more cussing! The Big Mustang is getting close to paint-time and as soon as I get my LE Decal sheet I'll make a decission on the scheme. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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