anotherP51nut Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Looks like a great resource Richard. As the official keeper of all things Mustang in Kingston, I'll have to consult with you when I get around assembling my 'farm' of ponies. Ron I've learned much more about Mustangs working on the project for Leading Edge. What I'm trying to do is put together a little guide for RCAF Mustangs, first more detail for the aircraft featured on the Leading Edge sheets, and then a general guide to modifications and equipment peculiar to Canadian Mustangs. For instance the configuration of the communication equipment behind the pilot (like in the illustration I posted), target towing equipment, cooling changes, etc. Lots of little details that I've never really thought about in an organized manner before. In the meantime I'm only a phone call away. Richard Edited February 18, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Richard: In your research on this subject, have you discovered the serials of the aircraft assigned to 443 Sqn City of New Westminster? In Sept '51 442 Sqn was split up and some of their aircraft were assigned to 443 Sqn. The new squadron was allocated the code GY*X with the Hornet crest on both sides of the fuselage. I'm looking for the serial number of GY*B. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Hello Barney, I may have an answer for you in a few days. I'm going back to Ottawa to the archives. I've had the 442 and 443 Squadron records pulled for me to look at. I've been dying to figure out the GY coded aircraft for months. I think that there is a possibility that the 443 Squadron fuselage lightning flash at first may have been Trainer Yellow like the Harvards, and the hornet in the crest was a more Disney-like cartoon than even on the three crests that Dave provided on the Leading Edge sheet. The hornet had chubby cheeks and its body and machine guns were different...as well as being a smaller crest. Photos I have from Patrick Martin and a couple other sources show the lightning stripe, metal portion of sliding canopy,rudder-tip, wing-tip and stabilizer tips to be a lighter colour than the red on the wing panels, and lighter than the red and blue in the roundels. I talked to Jerry Vernon about this and he swears that the stripes were blue or possibly red initially, but the photos contradict that if you ask me, and I think he is remembering the later version of markings. Here is one: If you look at the lightning stripe on the first two from 443, they are much lighter than the blue and the red in the roundel, and also much lighter than the BU-coded 442 Squadron Mustang on the right. We know the 442 stripe and spinner colour is red, and I don't think blue would show up lighter, especially when we have examples of blue in the photo. My theory is that 443's lightning flash might have been yellow at first, but I haven't yet found a colour photo or personal account confirming that. If anyone knows someone who served in 443 in 1950/51 I'd love to hear what they remember. Richard Edited February 18, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Seeing as we can guess the tips of the props were yellow.......... I would "guess" the stripe may have been as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) It's much more apparent here in this photo which is in Patrick Martin's absolutely essential RCAF Markings book, and is reproduced here under Fair Use: Note the wingtips and elevator/stabilizer tips, and the canopy especially, how much lighter they are than the red panels. Also, the stripe is lighter than the blue and red in the roundel on the fuselage. Dave had considered including it on the decal sheet, but without confirmation he was reluctant to commit it to design and printing. Somewhere, someone has a colour photo. And Barney, as for GY-B...if you look closely here you can see that the serial above the flash was painted out/removed. It seems that with 443 and 442 Squadron it was not common to find both the individual letter and the serial on the vertical stab at the same time. So if you are doing GY-B you would be fine with the letter alone higher up on the fin, and maybe showing a small panel of aluminum over where the serial was. I'm open for opinions/flak etc. Richard Edited February 18, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Seeing as we can guess the tips of the props were yellow.......... I would "guess" the stripe may have been as well. I apologize if I've had to use "guess" or "likely" too often in my descriptions, but until I can nail things down better, much of the information will be based on what evidence I can find. Still, it's been a lot of fun so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Here is an admittedly not very good scan of the early "Disney" version of the 443 Hornet on a Mustang (9243): Edited February 18, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hi Richard: I've also talked to both Patrick and Jerry and when 443 Sqn was formed some of the 442 Sqn aircraft were transferred to 443 and the lightening bolt was not changed..it remained red for a short while until 443 received its new code, PF, and the new design applied to the fuselage. Pat has other GY*X pics in one of his books that, when you compare the red in the roundel with the lightening bolt, they appear to be the same. The wing tips are more than likely yellow. As for the Hornet crest, I'll go with whatever is on LEM sheet as there is no clear photo of it. I have a photo of GY*B at an open house (close up) and the red roundel and strip appear to be the same tone. This is an attachment to an email from Pat but I don't know how to attach it here Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Hi Barney, I have that photo too and I've posted a section of it below. I've had the same conversation with Jerry and Patrick, and it does sound logical. Why would they repaint them? And both Patrick's father and Jerry served with 443 around that time so I can't discount their recollections. But the photos make me wonder though, especially the first one where it is obvious they are not the same colour. I've also had a graphic designer work with the digital images, and move sections of the stripe over the roundel, and the stripe tone is lighter. But we all know the pitfalls of determining anything from black and white photos. Here is a photo with the colour section moved: So until someone sends me colour photos from that open house, or remembers painting yellow on those planes, then I've got no real proof. And Jerry Vernon has done more for preserving the history of RCAF Mustangs than anyone I can think of. Still though...it would look amazing in yellow!! Anyone with me? ;) Richard Edited February 18, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 That is very interesting and it could be yellow on the stripe and canopy skirt!!!! Now let's see...a template to cut the yellow bolt from a solid decal sheet and black pin stripes for trim...tough job but doable even for a blind old fart like me. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I was thinking of using the 442 stripe on the Leading Edge sheet as a template, maybe cutting out the red...would be doable for me too...even with my bad left eye! Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Richard..with your good right eye and my good left eye...hmmmmm But it would be nice to have a colour pic of just one 443 Sqn aircraft of the time period. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brad-M Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Gents, I know this is a long shot, but back in WWII, 442 Squadron P-51D's in 1945 had a yellow spinner, anti-glare panel and canopy frame. Could this be a hold over from then for 442 Squadron, and if 443 Squadron picked up a few of these from them, the bolts could have been yellow... Just a thought Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I think your method of thought is sound when you are looking at the black and white images but I think there is a possibility the stripe looks a lighter shade because the sun is hitting it. I like how Dave won't sway from the red until the yellow is proven. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Ny decals arrived today and they look very good. I've got an email out to the museum at Comox asking if they have any colour pics of 443 Sqn a/c in the GY code. As for the yellow(?) wing tips, look at the Harvard sitting beside the Mustang..not even close to the Trainer Yellow. I'll pass on any info Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I like how Dave won't sway from the red until the yellow is proven. You're right of course, it's dangerous to conclude anything from black and white photos unless there is other solid evidence. And I don't blame Dave at all for not including a yellow 443 Squadron lightning flash, he can't afford to work on speculation. The 442 Squadron red flash took up enough room anyway! Still some questions in my mind about what exactly was going on there. Some of it could be explained by the sun hitting it differently, but in others its the same angle with no shadows and clearly a colour lighter than the blue or red right beside it. But without proof or more evidence I know it's just a theory...no matter how much I want it to be yellow! Thanks for at least entertaining the idea guys. And Barney, thanks for contacting Comox. Maybe there will be something there. Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 I have started with the application of the Leading Edge decals and WOW! The first down were the aluminum discs which will be overlayed with the roundel, and the fin flash. I used saliva as a setting solution followed with a brushed on bit of warm water. The decal has no clear carrier around the edge and they are very soft. I placed the decal in the approximate area and then fine tuned it with a red sable flat brush dipped into water followed by brushing out the wrinkles and bubbles. Within seconds the decals conformed to all panel lines and the rivets showed through as well. So far so good..but just keep in mind that these decals are soft when wetted and very thin. More later with pics Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 I've started with a few decals on the big beast and am quite impressed with the way they snuggled into the panel lines and rivets without the use of setting solution or solvent. Keep in mind that the decals are very thin and the roundel is layered over the silver disk. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Sweet! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Looking excellent so far Barney! The decals look like they are superb, snuggling down nicely. Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Richard there is one problem with these decals..they are very thin but they stretch when you try moving them into position. Both roundels stretched enough to make them look off centred on the aluminum disc. Float them on with plenty of water and a soft brush. Still no word from Comox Museum and I'll try 443 Heli Sqn in Victoria on Monday Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 The good folks at the Comox Air Force Museum looked through everything that was on hand covering 443 Sqn(Aux) postwar...and no colour pics were found. I've contacted the Squadron Admin Officer, 443 Sqn Maritime Helicopter in Victoria and he is presently digging through everything that they have. The squadron does not have an historian which is really too bad. I'm beginning to think that Jerry and Patrick might be correct in stating that the lightening bolt and canopy skirt as well as the wing/tail tips were a medium BLUE..... Nothing more has been done on the big beast until we can definitively determine the correct colours..maybe the Langley Museum of Flight might have something so I'll try there on Monday Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'm beginning to think that Jerry and Patrick might be correct in stating that the lightening bolt and canopy skirt as well as the wing/tail tips were a medium BLUE..... Barney You mean red don't you? Earlier in this thread you quoted them as saying they thought they were red or blue and that it never changed. But the only color images show it as red. And I think yellow is completely out the door now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brad-M Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Hi Barney, As you know, 443 Squadron is now a Helicopter Squadron based out of Pat Bay here on the Island. I could get in touch with them to see if they have anything there if you wish. Cheers Brad The good folks at the Comox Air Force Museum looked through everything that was on hand covering 443 Sqn(Aux) postwar...and no colour pics were found. I've contacted the Squadron Admin Officer, 443 Sqn Maritime Helicopter in Victoria and he is presently digging through everything that they have. The squadron does not have an historian which is really too bad. I'm beginning to think that Jerry and Patrick might be correct in stating that the lightening bolt and canopy skirt as well as the wing/tail tips were a medium BLUE..... Nothing more has been done on the big beast until we can definitively determine the correct colours..maybe the Langley Museum of Flight might have something so I'll try there on Monday Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 Scooby: Previously Richard had some digital magic done which proved the bolt and other parts were not RED and both Jerry and Pat said that they were BLUE (sorry not shouting here) although there have not been any colour pics to back it up. Brad: Capt McMullen, 443 Sqn Admin Off, is digging through the squadron stuff looking for colour pics so I'll see where that goes. Nothing like a challenge Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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