Scooby Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Just re-read the thread, I can seen why he thinks it could be yellow. Personally I think it is the sun hitting the aircraft and making it look lighter. Until a color photo pops up showing the yellow I wouldn't make the switch to yellow for the early planes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brad-M Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Okidokie Barney Brad Scooby: Previously Richard had some digital magic done which proved the bolt and other parts were not RED and both Jerry and Pat said that they were BLUE (sorry not shouting here) although there have not been any colour pics to back it up. Brad: Capt McMullen, 443 Sqn Admin Off, is digging through the squadron stuff looking for colour pics so I'll see where that goes. Nothing like a challenge Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) I guess I muddied the waters by suggesting that the early GY-coded 443 Squadron aircraft could be yellow. I agree that without the confirmation of a colour photo or document or eyewitness, it's just a theory. I still don't believe yellow is out of the question. What Jerry Vernon said was that 442 Squadron's lightning flash was red, and we have colour film proving that. We also have colour photos of later 443 Squadron Mustangs with the thin stripes and "speedbird" in dark blue. As an Engineering Officer at the time, Jerry states that the blue and red were the same as the roundel, out of the same paint cans. He suggested that early on 443 might have acquired aircraft from 442 and kept the red lightning flash. The photos of the early Mustangs just don't show that for me. This stripe is not roundel blue, and I don't think it's red either, the sun is hitting it at the same angle as the roundel only a few feet away: Also the wingtips/horizontal stabs/rudder tops in the other photo are much lighter than the red wing panel right beside it. The sun isn't a factor, they are beside each other on the same plane (as in surface, not "aeroplane"...although that's true too :wacko:) But Gary/Scooby is right, unless some sort of proof presents itself it's still a 'what-if". At least it's not a Luftwaffe what-if. Richard Edited March 11, 2012 by anotherP51nut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 What Jerry Vernon said was that 442 Squadron's lightning flash was red, and we have colour film proving that. We also have colour photos of later 443 Squadron Mustangs with the thin stripes and "speedbird" in dark blue. As an Engineering Officer at the time, Jerry states that the blue and red were the same as the roundel, out of the same paint cans. He suggested that early on 443 might have acquired aircraft from 442 and kept the red lightning flash. The photos of the early Mustangs just don't show that for me. This stripe is not roundel blue, and I don't think it's red either, the sun is hitting it at the same angle as the roundel only a few feet away: Also the wingtips/horizontal stabs/rudder tops in the other photo are much lighter than the red wing panel right beside it. The sun isn't a factor, they are beside each other on the same plane (as in surface, not "aeroplane"...although that's true too :wacko:) Richard I can't say the sun isn't a factor, the sun could be over the photographers left or right shoulder and therefore the light wouldn't be hitting the airframe at the same angle. I only trust pictures and not peoples memories, even those who worked for many years with the aircraft. I am currently helping with the research for a decal sheet of an aircraft I worked on for 8 years. I thought there was an error on the decals sheet but after looking through all my images and others on airliners.net, I couldn't find one confirming my memory. I thought we had a tail marking in two different shades. So even my own memory is faulty. I still remember how they run and function though! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 After a couple of months of searching museums and 443 Sqn archives, I've given up on doing the early temporary scheme on the big Mustang. That left me with trying to apply the stripes which were applied to the 443 Sqn Mustangs as they are on the Leading Edge Decal sheet. Big Mistake. Early in this thread I mentioned that these decals were very soft and rubbery and during the process of attempting to apply the "speed bird" nose markings, I found these impossible to apply on the model! They stretched then rolled up in a ball, if I could get them off of the backing paper at all, and they became totally useless. Did I do something wrong? No! After modelling for 65 years I think that I know how to apply decals but these are the worst I have ever attempted. What I'll do next is questionable but I will not waste any more time or money on this product. Anyone else have this problem??? If so let me know Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litvyak Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Wow, what a thread!! I intend to do a 442 Sqn Mustang in 1/72 to fit with all my other Canadian stuff - I've got the Arrow Graphics decals and I picked up an RoG P-51D kit... but after opening the box I decided I'm not going to waste the decals on that glob of plastic. Am thinking to get the Tamiya P-51D instead. However, having grown up in New Westminster I'd love to do a 443 Sqn bird too, perhaps in a larger scale, so I look forward to seeing what news comes out regarding the hunt for information! Thanks to all of you for sharing the knowledge! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 After a couple of months of searching museums and 443 Sqn archives, I've given up on doing the early temporary scheme on the big Mustang. That left me with trying to apply the stripes which were applied to the 443 Sqn Mustangs as they are on the Leading Edge Decal sheet. Big Mistake. Early in this thread I mentioned that these decals were very soft and rubbery and during the process of attempting to apply the "speed bird" nose markings, I found these impossible to apply on the model! They stretched then rolled up in a ball, if I could get them off of the backing paper at all, and they became totally useless. Did I do something wrong? No! After modelling for 65 years I think that I know how to apply decals but these are the worst I have ever attempted. What I'll do next is questionable but I will not waste any more time or money on this product. Anyone else have this problem??? If so let me know Barney Sorry to hear this Barney, I hope your fix works. Any chance of you making it to the show in Edmonton on June 2? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brad-M Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Hi Barney, Sorry to hear this. Can you use one of the other decal options from the sheet with the current paint scheme you have? Hope so, it's looking really nice. Cheers Brad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 Scooby: It doesn't look like there is a fix for the decal problem. In the process of applying these things, I started with the "outlined" speed bird which was very diffuclt to release from the backing paper. Eventually it was coaxed onto the nose but roolled up along the top edge and there was no way that it would straighten out..Ok we could weather the exhaust a nd fudge it..but the other side started releasing then rolled up completely..useless. Next step use the speed bird without the outline. The thing would not release after sitting wet for 15 minutes with frequent attempts at helping it along. Eventually it moved about 2mm on the backing paper and then refused to move any further..even after flooding the paper with warm water it still stuck like "you know what to a blacket". If the nose decals were trouble just imagine the problem of getting the long stripes to move. Brad: I'm looking at a possible option for this but I'll probably go with decals from the big spares box or make my own on my Epson 680 printer. I have 30 year old decals that I still use and never had the problems that I've had with this set. On a cheerful note..the sun is shining and I'm going out to Langley, pull the "Alley Cat" out of the litter box (hangar) and going flying! Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 On a cheerful note..the sun is shining and I'm going out to Langley, pull the "Alley Cat" out of the litter box (hangar) and going flying! Barney You missed the second part of my post, are you coming to Edmonton for the model show? I likely can get you a parking spot at the Museum for your aircraft. A rich retired guy like you should have nothing but time and money to burn. We have an exciting show lined up, both Brett Green and Spencer Pollard will be in attendance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 Sorry Scoob..I don't travel too well these days. Short flights are about all I can manage. I'm spending my pension on avgas at nearly $2.00 per litre and a flight to Edmonchuk would really put a big dent in my kids inheritance Growing old is a PITA Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Sorry Scoob..I don't travel too well these days. Short flights are about all I can manage. I'm spending my pension on avgas at nearly $2.00 per litre and a flight to Edmonchuk would really put a big dent in my kids inheritance Growing old is a PITA Barney Car pool with some of your BC buddies. Persistent bugger aint I? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AX 365 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Barney: I'm sorry to hear about the problems encountered during your decalling phase. That stinks! The build so far looks great. I hope you're able to find some alternate decals and salvage the project. What you've done, so far, looks great. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Thanks for the comments Mike. This is very frustrating to get to this stage then have this type of trouble . These Mustang decal sets are expensive and to have them react like this is :deadhorse1: I have 30 year old decals in the spares box that work better than these things...but I don't have any of the stencils or other small markings. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anotherP51nut Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Really sorry to hear about the problems with the decals Barney. It's got to be especially frustrating when the model is so far along and looking so good. Usually it's the NMF finish that's a worry, not the decals. I don't know whether contacting Dave at Leading Edge would help at all, but might be worth a try. And thanks by the way for all your efforts contacting the Museums and 443 Squadron out there. I haven't made much more progress at this end of the country either. Hope something sorts itself out for you. Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Well after nearly 6 months of searching for answers to the colour of the lightning bolt on the 443 Sqn Mustangs, searching museums, squadron files, asking anyone I could think of...I finally met a gentleman who flew W/C Barker's Mustang and he confirms that the bolt and wing tips AND canopy skirt were a medium shade of blue. This confirms both Pat Martin and Jerry Vernon's comments on the colour. Barker's name was also painted on the canopy skirt but I was not able to determine which aircraft. I now have the decals finished for GY*B and as soon as I can airbrush the trim on the tips and skirt I will apply the decals and finally finish this project. Stand by for the finished product. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litvyak Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Great news! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie Cheetah Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Stand by for the finished product. Barney Awesome news, looking forward to it Barney! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 At long last some progress! The lightning bolt and codes were printed on an ALPS 5000 with a white underlay which was very slightly out of register and this shows up around the code latters. I think that I can fix this by replacing the letters. The fuselage roundel andsquadron crest are from the original Leading Edge Mustang sheet...with a fix! The first roundel was, like the previous attempts, a disaster as it rolled up into a rubbery ball. The fix was the brush on two coats of Microsclae Liquid Decal Film! The second attempt went onvery well with no stretching or curling. Still lots to do but we'll get there eventually. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Litvyak Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Oh that looks great!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scooby Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I finally met a gentleman who flew W/C Barker's Mustang and he confirms that the bolt and wing tips AND canopy skirt were a medium shade of blue. This confirms both Pat Martin and Jerry Vernon's comments on the colour. Barker's name was also painted on the canopy skirt but I was not able to determine which aircraft. Barney Looks great Barney. I don't suppose this person has any color photo's backing up his memory? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 I knew you would ask that ...NO such luck. I also talked to others in the RCAF historical circles and they also said the same thing about the colour of the trim..although there is no way to match it ..even with a colour photo of the era as the old colour film changes over the years. Some of my old colour prints and slides which have been protected from UV have changed dramatically. Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AX 365 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Outstanding Barney. Perseverance pays off. Great work so far. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Thanks for the comments guys! I know that I have stuck my neck out a mile on this project but after 6 months of searching and discussing this subject, I decided to go with my gut feeling and do the decals as you see here. I've had help from a lot of people; Langley Aviation Museum, Comox Air Force Museum, 443 Maritime Helicopter Sqn, AnotherP51nut(aka Richard), Jerry Vernon, Patrick Martin, and a lot more people but even the experts may not agree with themselves on the colour of the trim on this aircraft. If anyone can come up with a colour photo of GY*B I'll gladly refinish the model if necessary and I'll buy the beer. In the mean time I'll continue finishing the incredible Mustang. Stay tuned Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Barneydhc82 Posted July 7, 2012 Author Share Posted July 7, 2012 Well it is finished! Adter 6 months of this here are photos of Tamiya's Big Mustang in what might not be its final scheme..make sense..not to me either but here it is, Barney Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.