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Frankly I think those figures are incorrect. They show avionics technicians making less than A&P mechanics even though avionics requires more training. At Delta when I worked there, all mechanics wheather A&P or avionics were paid the same basic salary. Only difference was A&P mechanics got paid an additional $1.00 per liscense where as avionics got $1.00 with or without a liscense plus $1.00 if having an FCC license. Base salaries were the same.

Frank

ATL

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There is a lot of generalization and averaging going on in that article. Looking at pilot salaries, I don't see the very low-end starting pay that is reality for most. It's pretty hard to cover the wide range between feeder and major carriers.

ALF

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PULEEEZEE! As a regional pilot for 3 years, my starting salary was $12,000/yr to start and as a Captain it rose to $25,000. A first year FO at a major airline will make about $30,000/yr "probation pay." It takes about 8 years to achieve the LOWEST pilot salary listed, but everyone fails to mention that. They all look at the highest 50% and remark at how well pilots are paid. When you throw in flight instructing for less than $10,000/yr as a civillian pilot, the salary goes even lower. The majority of pilots I know fly because they enjoy it and I have known plenty who left the profession because of the low pay and benefits.

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Well, these are based on Labor Department figures, so it depends on whether you consider them to be accurate or not.

I think ALG18 hit the nail on the head. When you're dealing with such large populations, there is a fair amount of averaging going on. And in fact, it does state "mean" or "average." This will mean significant differences compare to earning at one company, airport or city.

I appreciate the specific real-life examples, bus3144. Maybe others can chime in with their own salary experiences.

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I tried to make a living in aviation (twice, in fact), but I decided I liked to eat more than I liked to fly. My last year as a full time CFI I earned less than $8000 (and that was working 5-6 days a week most weeks).

Edited by Jennings
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12k a year! or $230 a week!! (before taxes etc im assuming?)

given their training and responsibility its pretty disgusting to say the least!

according to payscale.com garbage collection can earn between 19-54K a year!

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I also would caution any prospective entrant (as with any job) to research the health and prospects of the field, generally. What will airlines be able to pay, say, in ten years from now? That is, those airlines still in business. Moreover, in ten years will it be possible that, for those currently living in the United States, you may have to relocate to a foreign country to attain a given job or pay scale in the airline industry.

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The pay for the first several years is awful. Unfortunately, it is seen as part of "paying your dues" in the industry. I took a shot at it and spent almost 60K on my flight training in my mid 40s, did a little CFI work to build hours, got hired by Air Wisconsin, and then got almost immediately furloughed. That loan still had to be paid. I had teaching credentials, so I went back to that and made the best of it. A year and a half later I get a call from AW asking me back, but I ended up turning them down because I would take a huge drop in pay to start over again. I still would love to get back in the cockpit and if I were younger (I am 51 now), I probably would do it and take the salary hit for a few years. But at this point, I am looking to retirement in ten years or so and don't want to climb any more mountains. I am going to try to stick it out with my teaching job. I am might do some CFI work later on if I have time.

I still think that if you are young and are in a position to afford the training, it is a great opportunity. Overall, the demand for pilots is expected to grow like crazy over the next 20-30 years. Much of that is outside of the US, but still, there will be jobs here as well.

Hey at least I am home every night and can build models!

Edited by DutyCat
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I tried to make a living in aviation (twice, in fact), but I decided I liked to eat more than I liked to fly. My last year as a full time CFI I earned less than $8000 (and that was working 5-6 days a week most weeks).

Yep. We sat around one rainy day when flying was grounded and figured we made ~ .68 cents an hour!

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Hmmm, don't have a link to the figures right now but you should have a look at what the staff at one of Australia's leading airlines make! They wouldn't even set their alarm in the morning for those figures!

Edited by mako_leader
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Mechanics figures look pretty close to me too, though I'm on the Canadian side. Apprentices make between $16-20/hour. Licensed AMEs (A&P techs for Americans) for the most part make somewhere in the $20-30/hour range, depending on your job and where you are in the country.

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Yep. We sat around one rainy day when flying was grounded and figured we made ~ .68 cents an hour!

We did that (on a slow mid shift in Alaska in the winter) when I was in the Air Force. I figured out that (seriously), based on being on duty 24/7 (which the AF told us we technically were), I was making like $1.24 an hour. :)

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Starting pay for pilots at both major airlines in Canada (Air Canada and WestJet) is around $40,000 per year. It grows slowly for about 5 years, reaching somewhere around $75,000 by then, and ramping up a bit faster afterward. I found a good site with 2009 rates here for Air Canada: http://www.willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot-salary/69/Air-Canada.html

I looked seriously at this back in 1989, when I was debating leaving the Air Force for Air Canada. Of course, my time was collosally bad - they didn't hire for years after that, so the whole debate became moot. Some of my friends were driving taxis in Montreal for a few years, after having worked 6 months at IntAir or other places, at pay rates like $24,000 a year.

The picture back then (1989), so update for inflation:

Military pay, pilot, 13 years experience: $65,000 /year

Air Canada starting pay: $24,000 /year

Number of years to crawl back up to $65,000 /year: about 6.

Number of years to make up the pay deficit between military and airline: something like 12 to 15.

After 10 years at a major airline, the pay gets into the average numbers that the other web site cites. A Captain on a regional jet can make about $115,000 per year, and after say 15 years an FO or Captain on bigger aircraft makes $135,000 to $155,000.

The road to get there is tough, though, especially for those who have not had the benefit of military experience. I teach at an aviation college now, and some of these young kids are looking at years of slavery at super-low pay rates, before even getting into regional feeder airlines. By super-low, I'm talking about not far above minimum wage!

Flying is a great profession, but it is not an instant ticket to riches.

ALF

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Alf18, I assume your figures are in Canadian dollars and not US dollars? Not that it really matters, because right now there's less than a one-cent different in the exchange rate.

Yup, Canadian dollars. You're right that the current exchange rate is indeed almost negligible, but cost of living is actually a bit higher in many areas of Canada, even after taking exchange into account. We pay higher income tax rates (52% tax rate on higher incomes), and some Provinces have really big tax bites. A friend of mine was making $90,000 flying business jets a few years back. Living in Ontario, and commuting to work in Montreal (Quebec) an hour away, he saved $7,000 per year take-home... which he probably used up in car maintenance and lost time commuting!

I also found out salary for a small charter carrier in Quebec. F/Os start at $28,000, and Captains make about $42,000, on older turboprop twins.

ALF

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Thanks ALF for that bit of detail on living expenses and the charter carrier. I thought taxes here in the US were bad but 52% is astronomical.

BTW, you do know that your signature image is coming up with a message stating 403 Forbidden: This file removed due to violation of ImageShack Terms of Service or by user request.

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Thanks ALF for that bit of detail on living expenses and the charter carrier. I thought taxes here in the US were bad but 52% is astronomical.

BTW, you do know that your signature image is coming up with a message stating 403 Forbidden: This file removed due to violation of ImageShack Terms of Service or by user request.

Taxes in Canada are very high, especially in Quebec (and some other Provinces as well). Income tax is 52% in the top bracket (which is not that high a salary - not sure, but somewhere in the neighbourhood of $70,000 per year or maybe even less).

Sales taxes here in Quebec are 15%. Property and school taxes are fairly high as well - we pay $3,500 per year for a house evaluated at about $260,000. When you buy a house, you get hit with a property transfer tax of about $2,000 to $3,000, depending on property value. But I have the privilege of waiting 15 hours in the hospital emergency room for free health care, and being on a wait list for 8 months for minor surgery... Plus I pay $400 per year to have someone clear the snow from our driveway, which is another bonus!

It's expensive, but it's home.

Thanks for the heads up about my signature. It was a group build banner that seems to have gone missing from its source.

ALF

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:D, Hi ALF,

15 hours in the hospital Emergnecy Department waiting room you say? Good grief, that's worse than here, we have a benchmark of 8 hours max in NSW and this is about to be reduced to 4 hours shortly. On really busy nights here (at least at the hospital I work at) you may wait perhaps nine hours depending how many ambulances are coming in. I can't really see them meeting the new benchmark on very busy nights and I think it's unreasonable to set such an unrealistic benchmark; 8 hours is far more realistic. Of course in also depends on the nursing/medical staff on duty at the time as to how long the wait will be.

I've seen a bunch of doctors and nurses take all night to treat maybe ten patients while another 30 sit in the waiting room. At 0730 when the day shift come on the medical director often asks "what the -have this lot been doing all night? They've treated noone." Then the A team go to work and by mid day all those in the waiting room at 0730 have been seen and either sent home with medication, stitched up or sent upstairs to a ward depending on what's wrong with them, assuming there are beds available of course.

I can't see 15 hours being acceptable here, people would start writing to the Health Minister and the press about this sort of thing, although on New Years Night there was a huge back log of patients at Newcastle's 2 major hospitals and about half the available ambulances were tied up at those hospitals with bed block for hours on end. Personally, I think that NSW should adopt the same policy ACT and SA have regarding bed block, after 30 minutes the ambulance transfers the patient to a hospital trolley and leaves, the patient then becomes the hospital's responsibility. I myself, when I was an ambo spent 6 1/2 hours at Westmead in western Sydney once, all of that time on overtime because of bed block. Apologies for the hijacking, I do think that aviation pay scales, especially for junior pilots, who might not necessarily be junior in age are quite ridiculous, but what can be done about it?

:cheers:,

Ross.

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:D, Hi ALF,

15 hours in the hospital Emergnecy Department waiting room you say? Good grief, that's worse than here, we have a benchmark of 8 hours max in NSW and this is about to be reduced to 4 hours shortly. On really busy nights here (at least at the hospital I work at) you may wait perhaps nine hours depending how many ambulances are coming in. I can't really see them meeting the new benchmark on very busy nights and I think it's unreasonable to set such an unrealistic benchmark; 8 hours is far more realistic. Of course in also depends on the nursing/medical staff on duty at the time as to how long the wait will be.

Apologies for the hijacking, I do think that aviation pay scales, especially for junior pilots, who might not necessarily be junior in age are quite ridiculous, but what can be done about it?

:cheers:,

Ross.

Ross

All the more reason to move to Aus! I just have to convince my wife... I spent a week in Canberra in Feb 2002, and fell in love with the country. And I only spent two days in Sydney! My wife was a nurse, but after the brutal working conditions in hospitals here, she has given it up. Emergency rooms in Montreal and other major centres here are often at 185% to 250% capacity. And the people ARE howling about it - enough about the side issue.

For junior pilot salaries, there is nothing that I think can be done. The young ones that I am teaching at the aviation college all say the same thing when asked what kind of job they want: "anything where I can fly, and don't have to work on the ramp pumping gas." Small aviation companies really can't afford to pay well, and quality jobs with high pay potential are very hard to find. It's a job market that's skewed heavily in favour of the employer.

I was able to get some very decent jobs after I left the military with 20 years experience and an ATPL. One was teaching on business jets for a large Canadian aircraft manufacturer (read between the lines - there is only one of them). Starting salary in 2000 was $78,000 per year, with a bump to almost $84,000 after a few months (when qualified as a simulator instructor). We also got to fly the aircraft. Some of the instructors got picked up by American operators to crew their own jets - one guy was snapped up and moved to California, making $145,000 US flying large business jets as a Captain, until he lost his job due to cuts a year later. Cyclical, but some positions are really well-paid.

ALF

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