Jump to content

New GWH Devastator


Recommended Posts

Can I get some tips of on the painting for Midway? I tried the Lifecolor paints used in the Air Modeller Magazine, but it is way to light. Any help would be great.

+1: what about the crappy wheel wells? And I heard that the gear is in the extended position. You have to cut the Oleo Strut and reposition....?

-Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not true. They weren't at Coral Sea because the Hornet was returning from the Doolittle Raid, but the airplanes were far from prestine. They were typically stored on the flight deck and they had faded considerably. Commander Waldron flew his squadron as often as they could get on schedule.

Well...

From Gay's own book, and other records available online, 1, the AC were stowed while delivering the B 25's with Doolittle, and 2, from Gay's own book and testimony they did not fly almost at all before Midway. (read for yourself) And 3, the film work done about VT-8 filmed right before Midway show very very clean aircraft, T-3 and T-5 are in excellent shape with no fading evident. (that is on youtube) In the very short clips of film (including Waldron taking off at Midway) the other aircraft are not that weathered at all... The aircraft look to be in very good shape. Repeatedly Gay says that before and from Pearl onward all they did was exercise and go over personal equipment.

Even at Midway as the SBD's and Wildcats were getting ready to go, the TBD's were below, (normal) and even as the first TBD's were being spotted, other TBD's were still yet to be brought up. (not as normal) None of VT-8 had even left the deck with a torpedo ever... (he states how all were wondering what takeoff was going to be like) After Midway Gay's logbook showed a total of 14 takeoffs and 13 landings. (total for his flying career at that point)

Please feel free to show me evidence to the contrary. (I'm serious here)

In the meantime I'm going with what George Gay, and the color film shot before Midway shows until proven otherwise......

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites

The wheel wells aren't crappy. They just don't exist, beyond holes in the bottom of the wing. The Monogram kit is no different. If you're up to a bit of scratchbuilding, they're boxed in on the sides and have stringers visable in the bottom (meaning inside the top). I would suggest that had they depicted detail in there, there would likely be sink marks visable which would be a lot uglier than nothing at all.

And yeah, you have to shorten the oleo. I would suggest taking half the material out of the compression cylinder to depict an unloaded TBD, and maybe 3/4 of it with a torpedo load.

If you study John Ford's photo documentation of VT-8, you will notice that the underwing insignia still has the red centers on them.

Ken

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I get some tips of on the painting for Midway? I tried the Lifecolor paints used in the Air Modeller Magazine, but it is way to light. Any help would be great.

+1: what about the crappy wheel wells? And I heard that the gear is in the extended position. You have to cut the Oleo Strut and reposition....?

-Jim

Personally I wouldn't get all worked up about exact color. (really we will never know anyway...) I've been in the paint industry for almost 30 years, and from personal experience getting an exact match is rarely necessary.

Also if one wants to really get anal about it, then remember "scale effect", clear coat and wash darkening and different kinds of lighting etc have a very real effect on how we precieve ANY color. In a very real way, what we are doing (modeling) is an art, so getting the "presentation" right matters more to me than exact colors.

Personally, I'm going to cut the oleo's to get the mounted torpedo at the right angle and so be it. I do however agree with the other poster about the "weighted" tires. Naval AC had and have high pressure tires so even under full load they should not flatten that much. It would be nice for something like an Eduard Brassin set of wheels. (and IMHO this kit cries out for a big PE set)

Oh well... Back to building :)

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great connversation! This is the kind of researching I hunger for here on ARC! Thanks for all the info, guys!!

BTW, what conbination for the VT-8 paint scheme would you guys suggest? I have tried Lifecolor paints but cant get the right comnbination and I am in the middle of stripping my bird now.

Many Thanks!

-Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great connversation! This is the kind of researching I hunger for here on ARC! Thanks for all the info, guys!!

BTW, what conbination for the VT-8 paint scheme would you guys suggest? I have tried Lifecolor paints but cant get the right comnbination and I am in the middle of stripping my bird now.

Many Thanks!

-Jim

Hi.

I looked for a while at my MM and Gunze paints and the Gunze intermediate blue was the closest match in the paint I have. I have yet to decide on the underside gray yet. Honestly I'm not going to be a fanatic here, I just want my kit DONE. (will post an interior update today)

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL...Allan I am soooo there too!!

LOL!

-Jim

Then you can know the feeling of not getting a model done in almost 2 years, finally getting the chance to do it, and not to want to stop ;-)

My GF retired last Christmas and by default retired me too. Thought I'd have all the time in the world for astronomy and modeling but NOOOO.... Now it's taking care of a puppy and a 14 yr old dog (both German Shepards) and painting/working on her house, WoW, I didn't foresee being so busy !

Working on painting my TBD cockpit details right now, another in progress update coming by this weekend.

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Well I've done some more work on my TBD. The cockpit is almost done (In progress post will follow by tomorrow) and for fun I started poking around with the torpedo's. So on the subject of torpedo's this post will be.

The kit gives you two representations of MK XIII torpedo's, read on for more :-)

Mk XIII Mod 0 Torpedo was the first and only American torpedo to ever have the rudders behind the propellers. After the first production run of 156 for two reloads each for the four carrier VT squadrons, (plus 12 spares) NTS Newport RI changed the configuration to a rudders first arrangement (improved tail) and strengthened propellers to make the MK XIII Mod 1 Somehow they also screwed up the MK XIII Mod 1 good...

The MK XIII Mod 0 as was deployed in 1938 was a workable torpedo that actually stood a fair chance of working properly if well taken care of and dropped at the specs. (90kt preferred airspeed, 50' max alt) In acceptance tests it did indeed run a full 6000 + yards at 30+ kt's in somewhere around 20 of 43 drops in 1935 - 1936 It had 3 times the range of the Japanese equivalent and almost twice the explosive weight tho giving up on crucial speed.

They were loaded on the aircraft and held/released by two steel wires that supported the weapon from underneath and latched through the bomb shackles. (wires/torpedo were released together)

The Mod 1 had a bad record, VT -6 during training in July 1941 dropped 10, and only had 1 perfectly working torpedo. All the others suffered air starts, bad depth keeping, cold starts, sinking etc. Interestingly the Mk 4 exploder did not suffer the same problems as it did in the higher speed MK XIV submarine torpedo. Depth keeping also was not as bad. (around -4 feet over set) Hence it was more likely to go off when a hit happened than it's submarine counterpart. (MK XIII had no magnetic influence exploder)

As recounted by one Midway vet, all torpedo planes except the B-26's had Mod 1 torpedo's. The B-26's carrying Mod 2 (he must mean Mod 2a as the Mod 2 itself was experimental high speed 40 kt ver which was converted to a 33.5 kt version with Mod 2a) What was the important difference between the Mod 1 and Mod 2a, was a small flapper valve that flipped over upon water rushing by it which prevented air starts of torpedo (and turbine disintegration) Air starts was a problem they had been working for a while in that time frame.

Now what I think Great Wall gives you is a MK XIII Mod 0 and what appears to be a MK XIII Mod 4 (strengthened afterbody 50 produced) which you can make into a Mod 8 or Mod 10 with addition of rear shroud ring and or wooden tail fins. To make a straight Mod 4 you will need to fill in rear notches on fins. I think to make a Mod 1 the rear raised stiffening area also needs to be sanded down. And if you are really anal, find the scribed flapper valve area and fill it in for a Mod 1, its there on the aft torpedo body parts, and should be filled in on the Mod 0.

Also the instructions have it backward as to torpedo for and aft body part glueing. The front torpedo body part D 63 should be attached to the Mod 4 and NOT the Mod 0 part D 62 as the instructions show. (so D 63 and D 65 go each other. and D 62 and D 64 go to each other) The Mod 2 and above had a stronger front ring than did the Mod 0.

So a 1938 - 1940 TBD-1 should get a MK XIII Mod 0 torpedo and from 1940 onward (including up to Midway) a MK XIII Mod 1 torpedo. There is the distinct possibility that the TBD's at Midway could have had Mod 2a's (and possibly above, not sure of time frame of Mod's) I could not really find that out.

Well that's what I've found out about MK XIII torpedo's for the TBD-1 on the internet so far.

Hopefully I got most of it right.

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I've done some more work on my TBD. The cockpit is almost done (In progress post will follow by tomorrow) and for fun I started poking around with the torpedo's. So on the subject of torpedo's this post will be.

The kit gives you two representations of MK XIII torpedo's, read on for more :-)

Mk XIII Mod 0 Torpedo was the first and only American torpedo to ever have the rudders behind the propellers. (rail tail) After the first production run of 156 for two reloads each for the four carrier VT squadrons, (plus 12 spares) NTS Newport RI changed the configuration to a rudders first arrangement (improved tail) and strengthened propellers to make the MK XIII Mod 1 Somehow they also screwed up the MK XIII Mod 1 good...

The MK XIII Mod 0 as was deployed in 1938 was a workable torpedo that actually stood a fair chance of working properly if well taken care of and dropped at the specs. (90kt preferred airspeed, 50' max alt) In acceptance tests it did indeed run a full 6000 + yards at 30+ kt's in somewhere around 20 of 43 drops in 1935 - 1936 It had 3 times the range of the Japanese equivalent and almost twice the explosive weight tho giving up on crucial speed.

They were loaded on the aircraft and held/released by two steel wires that supported the weapon from underneath and latched through the bomb shackles. (wires/torpedo were released together)

The Mod 1 had a bad record, VT -6 during training in July 1941 dropped 10, and only had 1 perfectly working torpedo. All the others suffered air starts, bad depth keeping, cold starts, sinking etc. Interestingly the Mk 4 exploder did not suffer the same problems as it did in the higher speed MK XIV submarine torpedo. Depth keeping also was not as bad. (around -4 feet over set) Hence it was more likely to go off when a hit happened than it's submarine counterpart. (MK XIII had no magnetic influence exploder)

As recounted by one Midway vet, all torpedo planes except the B-26's had Mod 1 torpedo's. The B-26's carrying Mod 2 (he must mean Mod 2a as the Mod 2 itself was experimental high speed 40 kt ver which was converted to a 33.5 kt version with Mod 2a) What was the important difference between the Mod 1 and Mod 2a, was a small flapper valve that flipped over upon water rushing by it which prevented air starts of torpedo (and turbine disintegration) Air starts was a problem they had been working for a while in that time frame.

Now what I think Great Wall gives you is a MK XIII Mod 0 and what appears to be a MK XIII Mod 4 (strengthened afterbody 50 produced) which you can make into a Mod 8 or Mod 10 with addition of rear shroud ring and or wooden tail fins. To make a straight Mod 4 you will need to fill in rear notches on fins. I think to make a Mod 1 the rear raised stiffening area also needs to be sanded down. And if you are really anal, find the scribed flapper valve area and fill it in for a Mod 1, its there on the aft torpedo body parts, and should be filled in on the Mod 0.

Also the instructions have it backward as to torpedo for and aft body part glueing. The front torpedo body part D 63 should be attached to the Mod 4 and NOT the Mod 0 part D 62 as the instructions show. (so D 63 and D 65 go each other. and D 62 and D 64 go to each other) The Mod 2 and above had a stronger front ring than did the Mod 0.

So a 1938 - 1940 TBD-1 should get a MK XIII Mod 0 torpedo and from 1940 onward (including up to Midway) a MK XIII Mod 1 torpedo. There is the distinct possibility that the TBD's at Midway could have had Mod 2a's (and possibly above, not sure of time frame of Mod's) I could not really find that out.

Well that's what I've found out about MK XIII torpedo's for the TBD-1 on the internet so far.

Hopefully I got most of it right.

Allan

Quick addendum and update/correction here; The stronger front ring was installed on Mod 1 and above instead of what I wrote (Mod 2 and above)

Also the wooden tail fin attachment was experimented with pre Midway, Gay in his book calls them "stator vanes" and said they hoped they would improve torpedo water entry. (they did) There is film footage of them on VT-8 aircraft before Midway, tho the attachment appears to not mount correctly on a TBD. (sags down at aft end) Also of the one known shot showing a TBD in flight at Midway with a torpedo (VT-3 ?) shows a MK XIII with no wooden tail fin attachment. So it's unknown if VT-8 launched with wooden tail fins on their fish. Wooden tail fin "kit's" did not arrive fleet wide until early 1943. (along with the front "pickle barrel" drag ring attachment for weapon nose)

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good stuff Allan, and thanks for sharing it. I'll refer to it when I get that far. Most of the Monogram TBDs I built over the years got the blank-out plate on the bottom as I could never be sure. I have the True Details Mk. XIII somewhere, but all I remember about it offhand is it came with the "box" for the fins.

Ken

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

PShaw.. Raised detail? Totally unbuildable !!!1!!1 :deadhorse1:

Kidding aside.. I will probably pick one of these up. It isn't a perfect solution, but I am having a hard time imagining what a perfect solution would be.

Link to post
Share on other sites

PShaw.. Raised detail? Totally unbuildable !!!1!!1 :deadhorse1:

Kidding aside.. I will probably pick one of these up. It isn't a perfect solution, but I am having a hard time imagining what a perfect solution would be.

Perfect solution ? Having yourself a real TBD parked waiting for you to fly it !

Unbuildable ? No. A pain fit wise ? yes (Monogram kit)

Tell ya what tho, the Great Wall kit has it's own personality and issues, no real biggie but the open canopy set is really unusable. The front windscreen did not fit well at all, I started to work on the fuselage but then tried the one piece canopy, perfect fit !!! So I'll just cut off the two rear sections and install it.

Also from what I can tell, the decal sheet might be wrong with the numbering. It seems that squadron insignia (number 8) were removed from the aircraft. The film shows just the "T" before the aircraft number. I'd love to know more.

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites
Also from what I can tell, the decal sheet might be wrong with the numbering. It seems that squadron insignia (number 8) were removed from the aircraft. The film shows just the "T" before the aircraft number. I'd love to know more.

Allan

You are correct. I still wonder why Gay's aircraft has always been depicted with the squadron number on it.

And an aside; fill the bombardier's windows on the fuselage if you're doing either of the kit's decal schemes. 1500 block TBDs deleted these.

Ken

Link to post
Share on other sites

You are correct. I still wonder why Gay's aircraft has always been depicted with the squadron number on it.

And an aside; fill the bombardier's windows on the fuselage if you're doing either of the kit's decal schemes. 1500 block TBDs deleted these.

Ken

Hi.

Thanx ! It would also seem ah T-5 in the film was an earlier block

Would the framework for the windows still be there with a blanking plate, or would it just be aluminum skin ?

Thank You

Allan

Edited by necron99
Link to post
Share on other sites

On a quick search through my references, my sig pic is the best shot of this and it's hard to tell. I would think (without saying it's gospel) if it was their intent to delete the window there wouldn't be a blanking plate. It would've never been there to begin with.

Ken

Link to post
Share on other sites

On a quick search through my references, my sig pic is the best shot of this and it's hard to tell. I would think (without saying it's gospel) if it was their intent to delete the window there wouldn't be a blanking plate. It would've never been there to begin with.

Ken

Ok you are correct, Ens Gay's A/C was BuNo 1518. And Great Wall got the number right on their decal sheet.

So... it's out with the milliput and off with the windows.

Thanx

Allan

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...