SU-34 Recast/Enlargement?

[dsahling]

So for either my next project or the one afte,r I'm going to make a scratchbuilt/modified 1/32nd scale SU-34 (If only Tamiya made one.....). There's a couple links I found for some techniques to rebuild the fuselage on existing SU-27s into SU-34s, however, I was curious if anyone knew anything about a different technique I was pondering.

So there's a couple 1/72nd SU-34s out there, I was wondering if anyone knew a way to take some of the existing parts and enlarge them? One idea was to take the plans,drawings, and measurements and essentially "sculpt" a new fuselage out of clay or some other moldable material (suggestions?), then harden it and either heat and fold plastic card over it to make the proper pieces? Anyone ever tried something like this? Suggestions? Ideas?

Thanks

Dan

[KursadA]

One approach that I seriously considered was obtaining a 3D scan of the front fuselage of a built-up Italeri Su-34 and getting a scaled-up 1/48 version through a 3D printing service like Shapeways. This would actually be very straightforward for someone with access to a good 3D scanner (like the NextEngine); but there are companies that provide similar services as well. The 1/48 3D-printed nose could then be the basis of a master for a conversion set.

Edited February 6, 2012 by KursadA

[dsahling]

One approach that I seriously considered was obtaining a 3D scan of the front fuselage of a built-up Italeri Su-34 and getting a scaled-up 1/48 version through a 3D printing service like Shapeways. This would actually be very straightforward for someone with access to a good 3D scanner (like the NextEngine); but there are companies that provide similar services as well. The 1/48 3D-printed nose could then be the basis of a master for a conversion set.

Thanks for the advice!, I wouldn't want to mass reproduce it, because I know these companies work hard to create their products. However, the thought of a real 1/32nd SU-34 is a dream... I just sent out a couple inquiries, but I get the impression making these scans is expensive...any idea how much it might cost?

Dan

[Stratospheremodels]

One approach that I seriously considered was obtaining a 3D scan of the front fuselage of a built-up Italeri Su-34 and getting a scaled-up 1/48 version through a 3D printing service like Shapeways. This would actually be very straightforward for someone with access to a good 3D scanner (like the NextEngine); but there are companies that provide similar services as well. The 1/48 3D-printed nose could then be the basis of a master for a conversion set.

Doing that would raise some serious ethical and legal issues, the tools in questions being like a 3D photocopier that allow almost anyone to copy something that have cost a company hundreds of thousands of dollars to create. I don't think that practice should be encouraged, reverse engineering is really something for bringing back an older product that was built with earlier technologies and modifying it, updating it for a lesser cost, and also to use prototypes that were created by hand by say an inventor (in the old fashionned way) and bring it to the market the modern way (of course after signing a contract with said inventor or designer). Or to scan and copy handmade sculptures of people, such as those made out of clay that might be too fragile to handle, and then reproduce them into a commercial product.

All you need is to use a modeller's gauge if you want cross-sections and then build a model in a 3D software from them (or from any blueprint out there with cross-sections)(other software allow you to build a complex shape without cross-sections too, starting from a primitive. Depends on your personal taste). Or have a look at my various posts about my past work-in-progress kits and see how i build many kits with a very simple and cheap technique by using a few plastic sheet cross sections and a basic styrene frame (you can use plexiglass too to make it more rigid, especially for a large model) and fill all the interior of the gaps with Balsa wood blocs and Bond0 (you just need a straight ruler or strong wood or plastic stick to spread the filler very neatly by making it follow the shape of each pair of cross-section. A few layers later and relatively minimal sanding you have your shape ! Then make a fiberglass mold from it and cast a fiberglass copy, Fairly easy and cheap, with te added plus that it's legal. One thing to consider: 3D scanning in particular and then printing parts in 3D (for that size of model) is not cheap compaired to the cost of material to make it by hand or to design your own 3D model with a software. Or i'm sure sooner or later a resin kit company might decide to make a kit of it (though at that size, as you can imagine, the retail price won't be cheap either). So, for a one-of-a-kind, hand made would be the most economical way to go.

Stephane.

Stratosphere Models.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Stratospheremodels

[KursadA]

Thanks for the advice!, I wouldn't want to mass reproduce it, because I know these companies work hard to create their products. However, the thought of a real 1/32nd SU-34 is a dream... I just sent out a couple inquiries, but I get the impression making these scans is expensive...any idea how much it might cost?

Dan

The scanner that I mentioned (Next Engine 3D) costs only $3000, so it is affordable enough that many universities and even community DIY clubs have them(I will seriously consider buying one if I ever decide to expand Caracal Models into resin accessories and/or models.) You might have such a DIY club nearby (such as TechShop that has such a scanner, or you can ask a local university. I have used such a scanner to obtain a complete scan of a built-up 1/72 Academy A-37 with the intention of scaling it up to 1/32; but never got around to doing it. I knew someone at the university, and they did not charge me anything for it.

[pookie]

Doing that would raise some serious ethical and legal issues,

Stephane.

Stratosphere Models.

Only if he attempts to sell those parts. If he makes one for his own model colection there is nothing unethical or illegal.

[Stratospheremodels]

The scanner that I mentioned (Next Engine 3D) costs only $3000, so it is affordable enough that many universities and even community DIY clubs have them(I will seriously consider buying one if I ever decide to expand Caracal Models into resin accessories and/or models.) You might have such a DIY club nearby (such as TechShop that has such a scanner, or you can ask a local university. I have used such a scanner to obtain a complete scan of a built-up 1/72 Academy A-37 with the intention of scaling it up to 1/32; but never got around to doing it. I knew someone at the university, and they did not charge me anything for it.

The problem with scaling up is that you wouldn't have any of the smaller details on your model that a larger 1-32 scale model requires, and the reverse is also true for a model entirely created with CAD that you want to scale down from 1-32 to 1-72: you actually cannot use it "as is", you will have to reduce the quantity of details and give walls and details that were were thin in 1-32 much more thickness if you want to be able to make your model into 1-72. Same thing for panel lines which would have to be entirely modified, and various other small details, wether you enlarge or reduce the size of your model as a 1-72 panel line will be too large when scaled up to 1-32.

You might not necessarily have to spend 3000$ for a scanner, if you go the "DIY" way or "Makers" way as they are called these days, you might want to hack a Kinect (which was specially designed for that purpose). I have actually been thinking about doing that, albeit for a totally different purpose: to get 3D motion capture for animation. Personally as a model kit manufacturer, i would only need a scanner if i wanted to 'save' the masters or parts from my previously hand-made model kit products in case of loss or damage. It would be useless for aircraft model making, since everything resin kit manufacturers make is designed either by hand or on the computer from original CAD files they created themselves. For original sculptures made of soft material like clay however, i would buy one tomorrow, but i could also design those sculpts on the computer, there are many great softwares out there for modeling of organic shapes, including free ones.

Stephane

Stratosphere Models

Website: http://www.picturetrail.com/stratospheremodels

Edited February 7, 2012 by Stratospheremodels

[Stratospheremodels]

Only if he attempts to sell those parts. If he makes one for his own model colection there is nothing unethical or illegal.

I agree with you. Though we have seen models that were only meant to built for one's peronal use or to be entered in the IPMS competitions suddently become resin kit projects, more than once. Of course i am not saying Dan would do that, but it gives ideas to others who might do that. Just saying.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Stratospheremodels

[mingwin]

Armin Knes did an great article converting 1/48 Su-27 to Su-34 part 1 and gallery

[tonal]

Mingwin Wow, what a project you did, the photo collection from start to finish is awesome, which really highlights your skill. It's my dream to build this kit in this scale, damn, I'd even buy a kit in this scale, if it were available. I truly thank you for posting this master level of modeling, much appreciated!!

Humbling

Tonal

Edited February 7, 2012 by tonal

[dsahling]

I'm thinking its probably too expensive to get it scanned and sculpted via a laser, however here's my idea...

I'll take the 1/32nd SU-27UB and cut according to the photos in the gallery section as well as another chain on Britmodeller.com and cut the fuselage accordingly. Then make cut some sheet styrene according to the plans here http://imageshack.us/f/534/su34.gif/ and http://www.textures.es3dstudios.com/blueprint/sukhoi_su34_3v.jpg.

I was doing some reading and apparently if you dip sheet styrene into boiling water you can mold it over an object, bend it, etc. and it will then cool and solidify into that particular shape. However, I anticipate that parts of the styrene will "sink" between the rib outlines, so to compensate, after the basic styrene parts are assembled into a 3D "skeleton" I'll fill it in with clay, then carefully sculpt and smooth it into proper position (by some measuring and careful eyeballing of the 1/72nd Italeri SU-34. Then I'll take the clay mold over to a pottery shop/university and have them throw it in the kiln...this will turn it into ceramic (this is the stuff they coat the space shuttle with for re-entry so I assume it will be able to handle the hot styrene). Then simply slip this into position, cut or put a whole sheet of styrene into the water and then lay it over...PRESTO a nearly perfectly molded plastic fuselage (easy to scribe panel lines, detailing etc., this will also require much less sanding than these two already impressive builds will. Then just some careful cutting for the windshied.

I figure making the landing gear will be a little tricky, but some careful scratch building with styrene and metal tubing will do, combined with the 1/72nd kit as a more detailed reference. The cockpit will be a little tricky, however, the builds from these two guys will be very helpful. the SU-27UB will have two ejection seats. The other beauty is, this bird doesn't have a ton of decals and stencils (at least that I can see) so making a few on the computer should do. Then maybe order an extra sprue with the wheels and tires on it... What do you all think?

Dan

[mingwin]

Mingwin Wow, what a project you did, the photo collection from start to finish is awesome, which really highlights your skill. It's my dream to build this kit in this scale, damn, I'd even buy a kit in this scale, if it were available. I truly thank you for posting this master level of modeling, much appreciated!!

Humbling

Tonal

Saddly it is not mine... it's ARMIN KNES work! (which i'm not... i don't even know his screen name here...)

indeed his work is awesome, he did a lots of very interesting soviet-russian rares models... that's why i linked his articles

Edited February 8, 2012 by mingwin

[mingwin]

Dan, you shouldn't use the UB variant, as it have the wrong tails!

Su-34 have regular(shape) Su-27s tails.

as for seats and tyres, i'd go the resin after market way... it's a big project! it's will require a lot of ressources!

be prepared...

[Zactoman]

Have a look at Frank Mitchell's excellent Su-27KUB conversion: http://www.hyperscale.com/2009/features/su27kub32fm_1.htm

I was doing some reading and apparently if you dip sheet styrene into boiling water you can mold it over an object, bend it, etc. and it will then cool and solidify into that particular shape.

I think you'll find that the boiling water won't get the plastic hot enough to do much more than bend.

You'd be better off vacuumforming your parts.

after the basic styrene parts are assembled into a 3D "skeleton" I'll fill it in with clay, then carefully sculpt and smooth it into proper position (by some measuring and careful eyeballing of the 1/72nd Italeri SU-34. Then I'll take the clay mold over to a pottery shop/university and have them throw it in the kiln...this will turn it into ceramic

Won't the plastic ribs melt when you put this in the kiln? I'd also think that the clay would shrink and pull away from the ribs. You may end up with a big mess and lots of wasted time.

If you want to use the rib build method (rather than carve the pattern from one piece of basswood or balsa), I'd suggest filling the gaps with epoxy putty (built up in relatively thin sections to avoid shrinkage). You can fill large voids with chunks of balsa and just do an epoxy putty shell (I'd make the shell at least 3/16" thick). You should be able to vacuumform directly over the pattern without much problem.

You might want to shave the plastic ribs back a little so the entire outer surface is coated with epoxy putty. Otherwise the plastic ribs might show a little on the vacformed part. This won't matter for the most part but would show on the canopy section. Otherwise you could do a vacform, smooth the outside of the plastic and pull another vacform over this.

Good luck with it!

[Inquisitor]

Dan, you shouldn't use the UB variant, as it have the wrong tails!

Su-34 have regular(shape) Su-27s tails.

as for seats and tyres, i'd go the resin after market way... it's a big project! it's will require a lot of ressources!

be prepared...

Actually for 1/32 or 1/48 there are no aftermarket resin tires for Su-34. They are smaller diameter but wider than the regular Su-27 tires, as well as a different rim.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Inquisitor

[Bekim]

Hi Dan

The Su-34 is one of the sexiest Aircraft ever develop and made, I am going to do also an Su 34 after I will finish my Lavi TD in scale 1/32.

I made the datas and I thought to do the Master by Aires or Tobatec(Germany) but it was to expensive.

So, good luck with your project

Chow

Bekim

[Rafael Winter]

Hi Bekim...

A Su-34 in 1/32 would be a really nice bird...

I thought to do the Master by Aires or Tobatec(Germany) but it was to expensive.

how much is too expensive...

cheers my friend

Rafael

Edited February 8, 2012 by Rafael Winter

[dsahling]

It's a real shame Tamiya or Italeri don't release this in 1/32nd, I figure they've got the molds already done in 1/72nd, it'd simply be a matter of sending it to a laser company as we've been talking about here and scale it up...alas, looks like it's gonna be a LONG build....

[dsahling]

Have a look at Frank Mitchell's excellent Su-27KUB conversion: http://www.hyperscale.com/2009/features/su27kub32fm_1.htm

I think you'll find that the boiling water won't get the plastic hot enough to do much more than bend.

You'd be better off vacuumforming your parts.

Won't the plastic ribs melt when you put this in the kiln? I'd also think that the clay would shrink and pull away from the ribs. You may end up with a big mess and lots of wasted time.

If you want to use the rib build method (rather than carve the pattern from one piece of basswood or balsa), I'd suggest filling the gaps with epoxy putty (built up in relatively thin sections to avoid shrinkage). You can fill large voids with chunks of balsa and just do an epoxy putty shell (I'd make the shell at least 3/16" thick). You should be able to vacuumform directly over the pattern without much problem.

You might want to shave the plastic ribs back a little so the entire outer surface is coated with epoxy putty. Otherwise the plastic ribs might show a little on the vacformed part. This won't matter for the most part but would show on the canopy section. Otherwise you could do a vacform, smooth the outside of the plastic and pull another vacform over this.

Good luck with it!

I had thought about the ribs melting, so as a possible solution I'd put a piece of clay between each of the ribs, and after its been shaped I'd remove them, then fire them up. That way they could be sanded down if the fit needed to be adjusted after firing, then simply slide them between the ribs.

Zactoman, How do you go about vacuforming? Is it expensive, difficult? I also thought of after the "shell" is done, I could also measure the dimensions of it then draw it out on flat paper (This way I can also slightly change the dimensions, its just paper after all, to make a really close fit). That way I can cut a single (or multiple) thin pieces then attempt to simply bend and glue it to the ribs (this might have to be cut in a few places to get the fit right)

Someone mentioned the wheels...I'm prepared to sacrifice such a small detail for the overall amount of work and look of the project (perhaps someone can improve upon this sometime) I'm sure I can order an extra sprue or just build it gear up (In fact, this might look pretty cool, and avoid the nightmare of making scratchbuilt gear, wheels, and worst of all wheel wells...).

[Zactoman]

I had thought about the ribs melting, so as a possible solution I'd put a piece of clay between each of the ribs, and after its been shaped I'd remove them, then fire them up.

I'm not convinced about using clay for your project. I don't see any advantages to the other common methods.

I just did a quick search on "kiln fired clay shrinkage" and read that depending on the clay you use it can shrink from 4-15%. That amount of shrinkage could really screw things up.

I mentioned using epoxy putty between the plastic ribs. Bondo is another alternative (just be sure to apply it in thin layers and allow it to fully cure/cool or it could shrink a lot and screw things up). Have a look at Pig's T-38 for some inspiration and ideas: http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=28715&st=0

Zactoman, How do you go about vacuforming? Is it expensive, difficult?

The easiest way would be to have somebody do it for you. If you do a search here on ARC I think there have been a few people who have offered to do vacuumforming.

You could pay a profeesional firm. Look up plastic fabrication, plastic molding, thermoforming, vacuumforming in your local area. When I lived in the Burbank California area there were at least 10 different companies that offered vacuumforming.

You could buy your own machine: http://www.centroform.com/page5.html

You could build your own fancy machine: http://www.tk560.com/vactable4.html

Not as fancy: http://www.halloweenfear.com/vacuumformintro.html

Simple: http://www.largescaleplanes.com/tips/RatoMarczak/jigs/vacuumform.php

Simple and crude: http://www.pinrepair.com/vacuum/

Is it expensive? Depends on which of the above methods you choose.

Is it difficult? No, not really (except for making perfect, production clear parts ). There is a learning curve if you are forming the parts yourself. There are tricks and techniques that come with experience but for the most part with a simple shape you can just heat the plastic and pull the part.

HTH

[MarcDuhon]

I had thought about the ribs melting, so as a possible solution I'd put a piece of clay between each of the ribs, and after its been shaped I'd remove them, then fire them up. That way they could be sanded down if the fit needed to be adjusted after firing, then simply slide them between the ribs.

Zactoman, How do you go about vacuforming? Is it expensive, difficult? I also thought of after the "shell" is done, I could also measure the dimensions of it then draw it out on flat paper (This way I can also slightly change the dimensions, its just paper after all, to make a really close fit). That way I can cut a single (or multiple) thin pieces then attempt to simply bend and glue it to the ribs (this might have to be cut in a few places to get the fit right)

Someone mentioned the wheels...I'm prepared to sacrifice such a small detail for the overall amount of work and look of the project (perhaps someone can improve upon this sometime) I'm sure I can order an extra sprue or just build it gear up (In fact, this might look pretty cool, and avoid the nightmare of making scratchbuilt gear, wheels, and worst of all wheel wells...).

Yeah I have to agree with Zactoman.... I just dont see any advantage to using kiln fired clay..... you just need something hard enough to may a mold of.. then you can cast it or vacuform...... dont think firing it is necessary