BK974 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hello! Bulding a Hase F-4G is very nice...Now I would like to tackle an F-4C in 1:48 scale. I do not find an hasegawa set though...only for F-4E or D...what is the difference, I know the E is for export, but is it possible to build a C from the D or E? FO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Auger Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Your title lists RF so your looking to do a recon aircraft in 1/48. Some very noticable differences from the D or E, just in the nose area alone. You need to find a RF-4 kit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hello! Bulding a Hase F-4G is very nice...Now I would like to tackle an F-4C in 1:48 scale. I do not find an hasegawa set though...only for F-4E or D...what is the difference, I know the E is for export, but is it possible to build a C from the D or E? FO Are you asking about the RFs or the Fs? For the fighters, the F-4C was pretty similar to the F-4D, but the F-4E was quite different with the long gun nose and different engines. For the recon birds, the RF-4C and RF-4E were pretty similar. The main visual differences were the inboard pylons (the -C used the straight Navy style pylons, while the -E used the curved USAF style pylons), and the engine exhausts. There was no recon nosed RF-4D. Also, E was not for export. The F-4E was simply the next alphabetic designation after the F-4D, and the USAF was the first and main user of the F-4E. The RF-4Es were not used by the US, but I think the designation comes from them being based on the -E airframe, not E for export. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Hello! Bulding a Hase F-4G is very nice...Now I would like to tackle an F-4C in 1:48 scale. I do not find an hasegawa set though...only for F-4E or D...what is the difference, I know the E is for export, but is it possible to build a C from the D or E? FO The F-4D looked pretty much identical to the F-4C. The differences were that the chin pod on the D-model had an additional hump toward the lower rear, the RHAW antenna on the top rear fin cap was different between the two, and the D-model had a lot of cockpit differences that Hasegawa didn't duplicate at all, so using the F-4D to make a F-4C is easily done. An F-4E on the other hand had a much longer nose with a Gatling gun in the chin pod, slotted stabilators and different engine nozzles so it couldn't be made into an F-4C without lots of work. Here's two photos I shot showing the radome differences: And later F-4Ds had a change to the RHAW system that made their radome chin pods even more different which some refer to as the "herpes modification" because it added a bunch of strange bumps to the chin pod. Here's a shot of a display F-4D with the Herpes Mod taken by my friend Kevin Foy: Early F-4Cs and Ds sometimes didn't have a chin pod at all. Some D-models still didn't have it all the way into the late 1980s. Here's a North Dakota ANG F-4D I photographed without it at McChord AFB in 1989: The differences in the pod for the RHAW antenna on the fin caps are subtle. Here's an F-4C I photographed at Kelly AFB: And an F-4D I photographed at Bergstrom AFB: Edited February 12, 2012 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) Whoops, I just noticed it said "RF-4C/E" in the title block, while his question was F-4C versus F-4D or E. As others have said, the only major differences between the RF-4C and RF-4E externally were the inboard pylons and engine nozzles. Other than those they looked virtually identical. I'll leave my previous reply as is as that question about differences between F-4Cs and F-4Ds comes up often enough too that maybe someone will find it useful. Edited February 12, 2012 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JackMan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I'll leave my previous reply as is as that question about differences between F-4Cs and F-4Ds comes up often enough too that maybe someone will find it useful. I for one really appreciate your detailed info & visual aids about the differences between the F-4C & D. Up till now, I had thought the only differences were the chin pods. And I thought only the Iranian F-4Ds were without the chin pod. Your N. Dakota F-4D picture has thought me otherwise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hello! Bulding a Hase F-4G is very nice...Now I would like to tackle an F-4C in 1:48 scale. I do not find an hasegawa set though...only for F-4E or D...what is the difference, I know the E is for export, but is it possible to build a C from the D or E? FO Dude, what are you asking? You are all over the Phantom chart. Your topic states "RF-4C/E" then ask F-4C then to make a C from D or E? Please clarify. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I for one really appreciate your detailed info & visual aids about the differences between the F-4C & D. Up till now, I had thought the only differences were the chin pods. And I thought only the Iranian F-4Ds were without the chin pod. Your N. Dakota F-4D picture has thought me otherwise. You should know the RHAW pod on the tail of the F-4D was cylindrical and shorter than the F-4C's; the F-4C's RHAW pod on the tail was sort of flat sided but longer to the rear as you see in my photos. I have also seen a few photos of F-4Ds with the cylindrical pod but with a longer extension to the rear, the whole tail pod looking identical to that found on many F-4Es. Glad I could help you out a bit. Scott W. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 And for more confusion, some RF-4E's came with the slatted wings: HAF RF-4E :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BK974 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 My mistake...I was obviously affected by the toxic fumes of my paints when I wrote this... I did mean RF ALL the way...but the thread turned out nicely anyhow? FO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Early F-4Cs and Ds sometimes didn't have a chin pod at all. All F-4Cs had the chin pod from the beginning. Never seen a pic of one without it - from the factory. They were based on the F-4B, which had it. I know there's a pic someplace (it's been posted here before) of a C by serial number without it, but it simply had a D radome retrofitted. All Cs left the factory with a chin pod according to a friend who worked on the F-4 assembly line in the day. J Edited February 13, 2012 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boom175 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 All F-4Cs had the chin pod from the beginning. Never seen a pic of one without it - from the factory. They were based on the F-4B, which had it. I know there's a pic someplace (it's been posted here before) of a C by serial number without it, but it simply had a D radome retrofitted. All Cs left the factory with a chin pod according to a friend who worked on the F-4 assembly line in the day. J THREAD HIJACK ALERT !!! :-) Did any USAF F-4C's have the IR detector in the nose fairing? AFAIK they didn't, just the aforementioned pod fairing. TIA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Craig, no, the AF aircraft didn't have an IR in the IR fairing but, contrary to what a lot of people believe,,,,,that does NOT mean the fairing was empty there were various other electronic units in the C, D, and even in the B and N fairings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Jennings, that pic is the one of FG 37-683, it was identified as a D for decades,,,,but, it was an F-4C,,,,,,,it would make a nice companion on the shelf next to the Red Devil USAF F-4D with no IR fairing featured in the oldddddd AMT/Hasegawa kit (using the old Airfix mag article as reference) first place I remember seeing that pic of 37-683 was in Drendel's Phantom book, in '77 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) All F-4Cs had the chin pod from the beginning. Never seen a pic of one without it - from the factory. They were based on the F-4B, which had it. I know there's a pic someplace (it's been posted here before) of a C by serial number without it, but it simply had a D radome retrofitted. All Cs left the factory with a chin pod according to a friend who worked on the F-4 assembly line in the day. J I've read late model F-4Cs and early F-4Ds were delivered without the "donkey dick". I've seen photos of late C models without the chin pod taken within a few years of delivery. Here's one: http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Air/McDonnell-F-4C-Phantom/0216370/L/&sid=640b8387cf8565bd90cff84d6b561da9 FWIW I have a shot of 64-0949 with the "donkey dick" that I took in 1983 at Kelly AFB, six years before I took the one I posted of that same jet without it: Radomes got changed occasionally, and I guess the USAF bought a number of them without the pod. Maybe because the North Dakota ANG had some of the earliest F-4Ds, they actually had several F-4Ds without it at times. To my knowledge the USAF never bought any F-4s with the IR sensor, and I've read that the IR sensor was never flown by any operational F-4s, Navy or Air Force. It was supposedly evaluated in the F-4A, and never adopted for operational use. Way back in 1980 I saw a USAF training film about the F-4C. They discussed how the USAF F-4Cs had that extra space in the pod under the radome, so they experimented with putting a strike camera in the pod, but about then when the need for a radar warning receiver became apparent, the pod was a good choice for the RWR antennas so that's what was installed instead. I wish I could remember more about the film, but I recall it was quite interesting. Here's two more NDANG F-4Ds without it: Edited February 13, 2012 by Scott R Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Here's some more late F-4Cs without the chin pod: http://photobucket.com/images/Bentwaters%20F-4C%2081st%20TFW/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jay Chladek Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Okay, technically there are three major RF-4 variants out there. Here are the major features: RF-4B: Navy version for carriers, only flown by the Marines. Most have short burner cans and the first ones built used the unbulged wing of the F-4B/N series while the last dozen or so have the bulged wing and bigger gear tires. Jet has unslotted stabilizers. Jet could either have square camera nose or more rounded one. Many of the later RF-4Bs have the longer burner cans used by the F-4J, E and G models. Planes used the early style pylons with the straight leading edges. RF-4C: USAF version exclusively. It has short burner cans found on the B, C, D, N and J models. The stabs are slotted. The wings are bulged as it uses the same gear tires as the other land based Phantom variants. Nose could be squared off or rounded depending on the specific airframe. Like the Bs, RF-4Cs used the early style pylons with the straight leading edges and kept using them even after the fighter fleet went to the later style E pylons with the curved leading edges. RF-4E: Export model. It has the long burner cans found on the E and G models. Wings are bulged and stabs are slotted. The vast majority of the RF-4Es built have rounded noses EXCEPT for some very early ones built for the West German Luftwaffe. All RF-4 Phantom variants have the hard wing EXCEPT for the very last production models built for Greece and Turkey as those have the slatted wings of the later production F-4Es and Gs. Reason for that is when the planes were built, the MDD plant was only tooled for slatted wings and and was cheaper to make them that way than it was to retool for hard wings. RF-4Es use pylons with curved leading edges. RF-4E (Japan): Japanese RF-4Es have two bumps on the outer wings (same bumps as what the F-4EJ Kais have), otherwise they are the same as the rest of the RF-4 fleet. RF-4EJ (Japan): Here is where it gets a little confusing. Japan took some of their F-4EJs (ones they did NOT convert to EJ Kai standards) and converted them to carry a recon camera pod on the centerline, reclassifying them as RF-4EJs. So they have the gun nose. The reason why I bring these variants up is strictly due to kit selection. If you are looking for a Hasegawa RF-4C in 1/48, you typically won't find one as the kits were limited production. HOWEVER, Hasegawa did two standard production runs of the 1/48 RF-4B and they did the later version of the plane with the bulged wings. Reason being is they still have not tooled up a recessed panel line version of their F-4B/N, so they have no recessed thin wings to use for a thin winged RF-4B. The Hasegawa 1/48 RF-4B kit has both long and short burner cans and the parts trees have practically all the antennas seen on the C, even if the instructions don't say how they are used exactly. Only things you don't get are slotted stabs. Resin ones will fix that, or you can take an F-4E and swap the stabs, leaving you with the parts to do an RF-4C and a German F-4F. The RF-4B kit also has both the squared off and rounded camera nose options as well. So it is the one to get IMHO. Now if you decide to get a Hasegawa RF-4E, the most numerous one they did was the JASDF kit. The lumps would have to be sanded off the tips of the wings, or you could swap with a hard winged F-4E to give you leftover parts to make an F-4EJ Kai (since the rest of the antenna lumps and bumps are in that kit). But that would leave you with the need to get short burner cans (the E kit only has the long ones) and squared off C style inner pylons. Plus, the only nose option they give you is the rounded version (only a couple boxings of German RF-4Es have the squared off nose option). DO NOT get an RF-4EJ, as THAT kit is the F-4EJ with the camera pod. The "J" at the end means it was made by Mitsubishi in Japan. RF-4s for Japan were still built in St. Louis, even when the fighter variants were made in Japan. So, if you are looking for an RF-4C in 1/48, get an RF-4B. An RF-4E could be used, but you have to acquire more bits. You can also check out the pinned "F-4 Phantom Guide for the masses" thread in the archived topics forum page if you want details on other Phantom variants and kits. I started it, but others have contributed details since then. I wish it was still pinned at the top as people don't always realize those threads are still there. Edited February 13, 2012 by Jay Chladek Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BK974 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Thanks Jay!! That was just what I was looking for....but I screwed up my first post.. Phantoms are sweeeeet! FO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I believe that the RF-4C and RF-4E had unslotted stabs. It was the RF-4B that had the slotted stabs later in life. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Greek_RF-4E_Phantom_II_%281%29.JPG http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle2/rf-4b_151981/images/rf-4b_151981_38_of_40.jpg http://data.primeportal.net/hangar/mu_yeol_lee/rokaf_rf-4c/images/rokaf_rf-4c_02_of_16.jpg http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/rf-4e_485/images/rf-4e_485_06_of_40.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scotthldr Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) As mentioned above only Greece(8)and Turkey(8)operate the RF-4E with the slatted wings, however Greece also operate non slatted wing aircraft that were bought from surplus Luftwaffe stocks. The majority of these ex Luftwaffe a/c retain their Luftwaffe Green/Grey scheme but some have been resprayed in the SEA scheme, these ones can be identified by the smaller roundels and 4 digit serial number on the tail as opposed to the larger roundels and 5 digit serial number found on the original 8 a/c. Edited February 13, 2012 by scotthldr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scotthldr Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 As mentioned above only Greece(8)and Turkey(8) operate the RF-4E with the slatted wings, however both Greece(29) and Turkey(88) also operate non slatted wing aircraft that were bought from surplus Luftwaffe stocks. In Hellenic service the majority of these ex Luftwaffe a/c retained their Luftwaffe Green/Grey scheme but some have been resprayed in the SEA scheme, these ones can be identified by the smaller roundels and 4 digit serial number on the tail as opposed to the larger roundels and 5 digit serial number found on the original 8 a/c. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jay Chladek Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) I believe that the RF-4C and RF-4E had unslotted stabs. It was the RF-4B that had the slotted stabs later in life. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Greek_RF-4E_Phantom_II_%281%29.JPG http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle2/rf-4b_151981/images/rf-4b_151981_38_of_40.jpg http://data.primeportal.net/hangar/mu_yeol_lee/rokaf_rf-4c/images/rokaf_rf-4c_02_of_16.jpg http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/rf-4e_485/images/rf-4e_485_06_of_40.jpg DOH! I messed that up 180 degrees! Thats what I get for not checking my own work (and slotted stabs make sense for Navy jets since they have to approach carriers on the slow side). In which case, swap stabs from an RF-4B with an F-4F (such as Revell of Germany's 1/48 reboxing of the Hasegawa kit) and you'll have an RF-4C and an F-4E. Other than that, the rear cockpit of the B will need a control stick, which I am pretty sure in in the stock pit anyway and the padded wall section doesn't need to be added since that was a bulkhead for the IFR probe on the Marine birds. The rear panels between the B and the E kits seem a little different, but I am pretty sure both will work fine for an RF-4C as the differences are tiny. You can also try to source a resin pit. The Black Box RF-4 pits are a little tough to find (did Aries do one?). However, the True Details F-4C pit might get you a better floor and work fine since the master seems to have been made from a Hasegawa pit since it looks like True Details (I believe originally made by KMC) sourced a Hasegawa F-4E pit to make the master (the resin instrument panel looks dead on to a Hasegawa panel). So using the True Details F-4C pit with the stock Hasegawa instrument panels might get you a good RF-4 pit in the process since Hasegawa used the same kit part in both kits. Edited February 13, 2012 by Jay Chladek Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Captoveur Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Has anyone considered a Revellogram F-4C/D. I think I paid all of $12.00 for mine, they are currently in production last I looked, and I think build up into a VERY nice C or D. They do lack a centerline tank, but come with a LORAN antenna, the ARN-101 Antenna, a strike camera, a gun pod, and the necessary lump for the chin pod if needed. Or is Revellogram a dirty word around here? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Lo these 30 years later, the Monogram F-4C/D/J is still the most accurate 1/48 Phantom there is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scotthldr Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The original poster has stated it's the RF versions he's interested in so the Revell C/D will be of no use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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