361st FG FOUR MUSTANGS PAINT COLOR FORMULAS

[David Rapasi]

Some one asked how to mix the paint I use for painting the four Mustangs pictured in the photo.

The paint color chips are attached to the photo with arrows pointing to the areas to be painted with the colors on these chips.

The paint color formulas were created in Adobe Photo Shop using the actual Model Master Enamel Paints from the bottles.

The paint in the bottles might vary in color and should be compared to the paint chips when mixing is complete.

To increase the saturation (chroma) of each color, reduce the percentage of gray in the formula.

To reduce the saturation (chroma) of each color, increase the percentage of gray in the formula.

To change the brightness of each color increase or decrease the percentage of white or black.

EXAMPLE FOR MIXING PAINT COLORS

Using the Gray color on E2*C for example, this is how I mix the paint.

Mix 92% MM 1723 with 8% MM 1718 to get the correct Color Hue.

Mix 33% MM 1768 with 66% MM1749 to get the correct Shade of Gray.

Mix 70% of the Color Hue with 30% of the Gray to get the correct Saturation (Chroma) of the final color.

Make sure all of the paint used for mixing colors is of similar viscosity.

MM1705 FS 31136 INSIGNIA RED

MM1708 FS 33538 INSIGNIA YELLOW

MM1711 FS 34087 OLIVE DRAB

MM1718 FS 35042 SEA BLUE

MM1723 FS 36118 GUNSHIP GRAY

MM1749 FS 37038 FLAT BLACK

MM1764 FS 34092 EURO DARK GREEN

MM1768 FS 37875 FLAT WHITE

I hope this helps those who are mixing their own paint colors.

Dave

[Phil marchese]

All: Just as many of the better profiles of E2-S show , it has a small portion of (factory) anti-glare just ahead of windshield in normal shape.

Beyond that the colors as they appear on my uncalibrated 4G and red deffiicent eyes look too dark across the board.

Flight blue remains a possibility to me on some a/c painted on the Continent. Afterall the color was original to some F-5B of 33 TRS and convievable an item of supply at 3 rd echelon subdepot support.

[Jennings]

[Phil marchese]

Note the farthest a/c is the oldest and the farthest from the camera so of cources it would be percieved as the lightest in its dark value. Conversely the newest is the the most distict and uniform in percieved color and most "learned" in its application.

The VIII FC detached several FG TO THE CONTINENT for Tac support the 361st was one.

[Phil marchese]

@ Jenning. Obviously you fail to grasp the modifiers in my statement. I m sure you know and can cite refferences as to when and where the 361 was camo'ed for its forward DS. I m sure you. Can. Also document this E2-S among the Group complement on that date and location. I have never seen anywhere that the plane was treated at the same time place and fashion. Would you be so kind as to share your definite support?

As to supply @ 3rd echelon I will not be sofoolish as to ask you to prove a negative but I will ask that you confirm that the 33 TRS had US applied F-5B in high altitude finish. Thank you for your valuable inputs on this subject. I found them probing.

[Phil marchese]

What is true of the part is not always true of the whole and what is true of the whole is not always true of the part. Elephants live long lives. Toby died @ 6 wks.

[Phil marchese]

Anyone with genuine interest in this subject may want to take the photo of the F-5B and P-38 showing the correct blue and OD camo respectively. Then a print where they appear more OD on the photo bird and German field colors on the fighter. Adjust the latter back to correct. Adjust the 361 print likewise. If the small portion of factory anti-glare on E2-S is not precievable as the factory standard your adjustments and evaluations are at conflict with standards.

[tourist]

For reasons explained many times before, this method is NOT the way to get anything remotely accurate on your Mustangs, it can ONLY lead to you into error.

Choosing the much debated Bottisham Four as the subject isn't helping.

Beyond that, some here may enjoy this process.

I'll now join Jennings in a Double Facepalm! :doh:

[Rex]

It is very unpopular to say in public,,,but, the highly recommended "Google-it" and then using online paint charts doesn't quite work,,,so I see nothing wrong with hobbyists trying to come up with a better way

I just recently switched paint types, and out of the first 90 paints I have "chipped out and held up" to a color standard that they are claimed to match,,,,,,11 don't match

now, an 88% grade is a passing grade,,,,but, in this case, those 11 bottles of paint are $44 wasted money,,,and one of them is Flat Light Gull Gray (very sorry, but, that seems to be a paint that should be easy to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on)

I have 130 more bottles to "chip out and hold up" yet,,,,,I really hope the percentage is different

In the meantime,,,,,who is being hurt by people trying to come up with a better way than "Grand PooBah says so"?,,the GP's put up the sites that I followed, wasting money

[B-17 guy]

[Rex]

topic Nazi's, seriously?

[zipplex]

Rex

If I can just had my 2c worth or 2p worth as I'm in the UK maybe some of those colour's you are looking at may have had a "scale color effect" added or rather taken away from them. I know some paint manufacturers ranges have had the scale color treatment but I can't remember which ones off hand.

Si

[Rex]

thanks for the thought, Si,

the Gull Gray is "greener" than the FS, the "lemon yellow" is more like a Fluorescent yellow,,,and the other colors are noticeably *darker* than the FS book,,,,,scale effect would make them lighter,,,,,and they were Vallejo, except for one LifeColor, and that was a brown that was "far too green"

I called it 11 because those are the colors that ended up being orphans,,,,,a few others work if they are used for colors other than the "website matches", so, in the long run, those 5 won't waste my money,,,,just the 11 that don't fit anything

I have more than one paint on each index card to buy for any given color,,,,,,I will just buy a different paint line,,,,and in the future, when some new color comes up,,,,I will stay with the line that gives the better average

[Phil marchese]

Gray green additional muted by gray with a slight redish cast is what David's colorimetry produced from the scan when his results are written out in plain english. Again , I suggest these colorimerty topics be moved above the airplane/prop level and hopefully we have a full time color matching professional some place on ARC. Regardless if the two echeloned up planes C & S are RAF. Drk Green or a high altitude scheme the scan results are off as to historical color or any percieved color interpretations. All that is here is a way to print a print that matches a non-printed projection.

[David Rapasi]

It is very unpopular to say in public,,,but, the highly recommended "Google-it" and then using online paint charts doesn't quite work,,,so I see nothing wrong with hobbyists trying to come up with a better way

I just recently switched paint types, and out of the first 90 paints I have "chipped out and held up" to a color standard that they are claimed to match,,,,,,11 don't match

now, an 88% grade is a passing grade,,,,but, in this case, those 11 bottles of paint are $44 wasted money,,,and one of them is Flat Light Gull Gray (very sorry, but, that seems to be a paint that should be easy to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on)

I have 130 more bottles to "chip out and hold up" yet,,,,,I really hope the percentage is different

In the meantime,,,,,who is being hurt by people trying to come up with a better way than "Grand PooBah says so"?,,the GP's put up the sites that I followed, wasting money

Rex

I have far less paint bottles than you, but I am finding more and more that the ones I have don’t match the paint chips.

Using Adobe Color Picker I can scan a color chip and make a formula for almost any color chip just using primary colors, and white and black.

Or I can adjust the Model Master colors by tinting them to match the color chips.

Model Master 1705, 1708, and 2012 aren’t pure colors, but are from 80% to 100% saturation and are close enough to use as primary colors.

If I can’t get a close match with these colors I will use Testors 1103, 1111, 1114 for additional tinting.

Using approximately a dozen colors I can match any paint chip by eye and then verify the color match using the Color Picker.

Dave

[Rex]

I didn't catch on to that before

so, you are using Adobe and MM, and basically have created your very own "personal paint company", one that tells you how to make a paint color as needed and "on demand"?

if I got that right, that is pretty cool,,,,and beats my method of "Matching all the colors I think I will ever need" in advance of choosing the paint lines,,,,,,my way, I will know exactly what bottle to order or re-order for the "service life of my paint pallete",,,,,,,,but, your way seems a lot like having a Lowe's color matcher and pigment set in hobby room,,,,,if I could still use MM Enamels, I would be picking your brain a lot on this, believe me

[Phil marchese]

David I have followed you discussions intently with the hopes of expanding my understanding of Adobe and furthering my adult long study and use of color. There are a lot of positive things you are attempting yet the scanned picture is still the GIGO step in your technical approach.

Also for those trying to follow along when your are using Testors to improve the purity of the primary colors your are intensifying. Tinting is the addition of whiye which effects brightness not saturation. You are actually adulterating the primary hue by tinting. Often that is what one wants but you have fonfused the processes.

[David Rapasi]

David I have followed you discussions intently with the hopes of expanding my understanding of Adobe and furthering my adult long study and use of color. There are a lot of positive things you are attempting yet the scanned picture is still the GIGO step in your technical approach.

Also for those trying to follow along when your are using Testors to improve the purity of the primary colors your are intensifying. Tinting is the addition of whiye which effects brightness not saturation. You are actually adulterating the primary hue by tinting. Often that is what one wants but you have fonfused the processes.

Phil

I am trying my best not to confuse anyone but I am learning as I am trying to show what can be done with Adobe Photo Shop.

Using the Color Picker, there are only three things that I am concerned with, the Hue, Saturation, and Brightness.

Once I know the hue of a color the rest is simple, the saturation is just the percentage of color hue mixed with gray.

The shade of gray is determined by the percentage of black and white.

That is it, with this information I can mix 3.6 million colors.

I can do this either by tinting existing colors to get the correct hue, or starting from scratch with primary colors of Yellow, Red, and Blue.

I hope this helps.

Dave

[David Rapasi]

I didn't catch on to that before

so, you are using Adobe and MM, and basically have created your very own "personal paint company", one that tells you how to make a paint color as needed and "on demand"?

if I got that right, that is pretty cool,,,,and beats my method of "Matching all the colors I think I will ever need" in advance of choosing the paint lines,,,,,,my way, I will know exactly what bottle to order or re-order for the "service life of my paint pallete",,,,,,,,but, your way seems a lot like having a Lowe's color matcher and pigment set in hobby room,,,,,if I could still use MM Enamels, I would be picking your brain a lot on this, believe me

Rex

I wished it worked as easy as Lowe’s color matcher.

Because most of the Model Master colors are not a pure color hue (100%), most have a large percentage of gray, it is still trial and error mixing in the paint bottle.

When I get the paint in the bottle close the color chip I printed, I spray a test sample and scan it into Photo Shop.

In Photo Shop I use the picker to check the mixed paint against the paint chip.

This is much easier than mixing by eye.

I then determine the tinting that is needed and modify the paint mix accordingly.

Again spraying a sample and repeating this process until I am satisfied with the final paint mix.

Most of the paint in my paint rack has been redone to match the paint chips as needed for modeling.

Then when the model is weathered by adding a black wash and Dullcote with a white tint, all of the colors change again.

Dave

[anotherP51nut]

This is an interesting experiment but it won't get us any closer to a match for the actual colours of those aircraft...if I understand what you are trying to present here. As Phil says you are basing the matches on a scanned photo, and a famous and controversial one. Most of us have seen this photo dozens of times in print and on line, and most have noticed that no two iterations are the same. Which one is correct? Everyone seems to see something different and digital scanning will see something else again. Even if you had the original slide or negative there will be factors affecting what the camera saw that beautiful day.

You will end up with models that match this particular photo but whether that will represent the actual aircraft is questionable. To me it's kind of overthinking the problem. There is a limit to how far I want to pursue accuracy and I don't have a lot of time for mixing and matching. But that's just me. There should be room for eveyone's particular take on this hobby and it's interesting to see the thought process.

Richard

Edited March 6, 2012 by anotherP51nut

[Phil marchese]

Richard...nicely put.

David... The color mixing part using a 3 color process with the aid of program or without is centures old technology. As you and Rex say...it just puts Lowes or Big Orange in your hobby room

What I m trying to get you to see is that gray is not tecnically a color. It is a shade of white. Brightness is a tint of hue using white or a shade thereof.

Why hobby paint hues are muted is because they would be too intense on small objects. Military flats all the more so need reduction in all three factors in most cases. That is the main discovery you are finding for yourself and sharing. It is however predictale as I. Demonstrated with the RAF PRU variation proposal. Good job on your learning and application.

[David Rapasi]

Richard...nicely put.

David... The color mixing part using a 3 color process with the aid of program or without is centures old technology. As you and Rex say...it just puts Lowes or Big Orange in your hobby room

What I m trying to get you to see is that gray is not tecnically a color. It is a shade of white. Brightness is a tint of hue using white or a shade thereof.

Why hobby paint hues are muted is because they would be too intense on small objects. Military flats all the more so need reduction in all three factors in most cases. That is the main discovery you are finding for yourself and sharing. It is however predictale as I. Demonstrated with the RAF PRU variation proposal. Good job on your learning and application.

Phil

I never said gray was a color.

Gray is mixed with a color hue to change the shade of a color, or the saturation.

The brightness is controlled by the percentage of white and black that is used to make the shade of gray.

All of this applies to Adobe Photo Shop, other computer software use their own methods.

Dave

[David Rapasi]

This is an interesting experiment but it won't get us any closer to a match for the actual colours of those aircraft...if I understand what you are trying to present here. As Phil says you are basing the matches on a scanned photo, and a famous and controversial one. Most of us have seen this photo dozens of times in print and on line, and most have noticed that no two iterations are the same. Which one is correct? Everyone seems to see something different and digital scanning will see something else again. Even if you had the original slide or negative there will be factors affecting what the camera saw that beautiful day.

You will end up with models that match this particular photo but whether that will represent the actual aircraft is questionable. To me it's kind of overthinking the problem. There is a limit to how far I want to pursue accuracy and I don't have a lot of time for mixing and matching. But that's just me. There should be room for eveyone's particular take on this hobby and it's interesting to see the thought process.

Richard

Richard

If you had a commission to paint these four Mustangs and the client wanted the models to look like the photo, what color(s) would you paint them?

I am using the best method I have found and shared it with this forum.

I wish some one would just tell me what color(s) they were painted, but no one has offered.

Each set of online paint chips is different, the paint in the bottles doesn’t match the manufacturers paint chips.

It sure would make this a lot easier if everything was in black and white, or would it.

Dave

[Phil marchese]

David,

Procedurally we are saying the same thing regarding brightness however your terminology. Is mulled. Color mapping is like a conceptual 3 D sphere. Movement is by tone tint or shade. You darken a VALUE by shading. You brighten by tinting and you move along the equadorian color wheel af hues by toning adjacent or across the 360 degs. The % of white to black naturally controls the value of gray used to tint hihg white or shade. Shading can also be done with complements ( 180 deg opposite) and grays can also contain hues which vary the temperature. Cool grays have ablue or green cast. Warm grays have red yellow cast.

[Phil marchese]

As to the Mustangs, I though several of us addressed the issue. Jennings and the starfleet have there view. I ll let him speak to it. I wil say this there is one relible reference it the photo under most lighting conditions concievable for the day. It is the small area of factory antiglare paint just around the windshild side panel on E2-S. The insignia blue reads different even in person.

That said aslo note the treatment and colors vary from plane to plane with direct correlate to date of assigment and production. The picture is well after OVERLORD SO THE THE ORIGINAL tactical purpose of concealment on forward fields is gone. The concealment of mixed elements of small formations remained. That is reflection. There was no hiding visual or radar tracking of 800 a/c formations NMF or otherwise.

So while US OD Was used in the removal of upper allied stripes on the older planes n it is not confirmed what the original wing surfaces had for concealment ...at odds!

For E2-C & S the long standing controversy is btween RAF DRK GREEN and USA sourced synthetic haze or its replacement flight blue. If the 361 were return to UK then ground concealment is no long the issue but high altitude is.

There are huge varations in prints of both these 4 ,Stangs and the two lockheed products I ve mention. Analysis of both pic simultanious will help because the true " local". I e paint not precieved colors of the F-5B & P-38 are know to be blue and ODrespectively which should baseline the mustangs. What it a given is that th361 were not all treated the same way at the same time in the era of the photo. By the era better said. Not a plam slap. Just facts.