spaceman Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 (edited) Thanks Pete for trying to help me, one possibility would be to glue both airbrushed gutters end to end at the MLP deck and then to overpaint the connecting edge once more with the brush by hand. Maybe I could also use the special glue for photo etch parts, Gator's Grip-Thin Blend for gluing instead of CA, whose application is easier. I have also already thought about using of a foil or tape, maybe simple masking tape (0.05 mm) on the rear half of the gutter could be suitable as a little support, which one can not see from the front. Edited September 17, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Manfred, The Gator's Grip-Thin Blend or Formula 560 Canopy Glue should both work fine. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 Thanks Mike, I'll try this stuff tomorrow with some dummy gutters. What did you use it for? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Manfred, I haven't used the Gator Glue but I've used the Formula 560 Canopy Glue. I believe they are both very similar glues. They are very strong water soluble glues that hold really well. I've used Formula 560 Canopy Glue for gluing windshields into car models and other parts. I've heard other builders say they even glue photo etch with the Formula 560 Canopy glue. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 18, 2017 Author Share Posted September 18, 2017 Hi Mike, a significant advantage of Gator's Grip is that it is water-soluble and does not harden as quickly as CA. The longer drying time allows repositioning or correction of the parts, which is a real plus compared with CA. After about 10 minutes, the initially milky white color changes into transparent. BTW, I could have thought about earlier and could use it for gluing of the gutters. According to user reports, it should also be suitable for the gluing of plastic on metal, which I will try too, maybe I can use it for an easier gluing of the supports onto the gutters of Side 4. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 Hello everybody, okay, admitted, this delicate matter is really not very easy, because the gluing surfaces (cannot to be said actually) or better the gluing edges (0.1 mm) are much too narrow. I had previously only planned its application for the gluing of the various PE parts at the FSS/RSS and therefore it falled a bit into oblivion. Besides the water solubility a further advantage is the amazing elasticity of Gator's Grip in the cured state. While a contact that is glued with Seku can break away quickly, as with one gutter support, the Gator's Grip contact itself can withstand a bending by 90° and then re-erect itself, also known as Memory effect, what I initially did not wanted to believe. And this variant I have tried today. Here one can see the put together gutter dummies, which I have just before lightly painted inside and outside with the Gator's Grip, as well as a similarly attached support. After a drying time of about 10 minutes it looked like this. The gutters were actually tightly connected and held out a slight bend without breaking apart. In addition, I also have glued an old PE ladder as well as a piece of handrail upright onto a plastic pad and let dry. And then followed the brutal nail test for the ladder by loading of a tweezer, what overwhelmed it. And whether one believes it or not, after taking the tweezers away, the miraculous resurrection of the ladder began, here after half of the recovery from this strain, and then almost to the starting point. And the handrail finally had to bend itsef under my cent coin, but had surprisingly the same abilities and stood up again little by little, although these are only point contacts!!! Finally here once again the state of the probands after this stress test, which impressively proves their total recovery. What more do you want? As a conclusion, I can say rightly that the test reports have not promised too much, and that Gator's Grip is really a hellish stuff that convinced me and will be helpful to me when gluing the next gutters on the Side 4, as certainly also in the gluing of the gutters at the MLP deck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 22, 2017 Author Share Posted September 22, 2017 Hello everybody, since I can order Gator's Grip also in Germany, I have tested both varieties in comparison, because I was interested in the difference. While the Original Blend is rather pasty and resembles conventional wood glue, the Thin Blend is not fluid, but noticeably thinner. And since the Gator does not bite immediately like CA, I had to hold the two plastic rods first. As can be seen after a dry time of 5 minutes the Thin Blend actually dries faster, and the milky white color already begins to become transparent. After 10 minutes, both samples are standing already by itself. After 15 minutes, the Thin Blend should be almost cured. After 20 minutes: After 25 minutes: After 60 minutes the original glue was still not quite transparent. Then came the nail test, which both samples have survived. However, the force for upstanding reached only to half, for whatever reason. However, the connection is still so stable that the samples can be moved and erected arbitrarily without having to break. This allows everybody to decide for himself which blend is more advantageous and to order accordingly. I will probably stay with the Thin Blend because of the faster curing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 (edited) Hello everybody, and today finally to the gutters on the Side 4, which basically have the same structure as the gutters on Side 2. The only difference is that there is no console in the Bay 17 as on the Side 2, and therefore there is also no recess as shown on this image on the MLP-2 during STS-8. Source: NASA As a result, there are only two gutters on Side 4, which can be seen in this image a bit better. For dimensioning it is only important to determine the distances in the recess in the Bay 10, Source: apollosaturn.com (John Duncan) in which the box for the Fire Hose Reel was installed earlier. The two gutter ends at the beginning and at the end of the side have the same outward lowering structure, as can be seen in this image, Source: apollosaturn.com (John Duncan) which again have to be glued with blunt ends, but this time immediately with Gator's Grip. For the cutting of the aluminium sheet metal strips (0.1 mm) was used a small montage sketch as usual. Then, again, the rounding of the gutters followed in the usual way, here first the short initial piece of Gutter 1 in Bay 1, which was relatively simple, and then the long piece, which was already somewhat more tricky. As far as for today. Edited October 4, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Your experiment with Gator Grip Glue is most interesting Manfred! I would not have thought its bond would be so resilient and strong! Plus the differing materials it bonds to! Excellent information! Many Thanks! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 (edited) Hi Pete, yep, Gator's Grip is really fabulous, and here is still an encore. It was even possible to smooth the glue contact with a sanding stick, and the 0.1 mm contact seam was resistent and is not broken apart, which would have happened by using CA. Strange, but true! As a small customer service for curious guys and prospective customers, here one can go to the witch master Kenny Loup from Sulphur (Louisiana), from whom I bought my glue a few years ago. Source: gatorsmask.com Edited October 1, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Hello everyone, and now to the still remaining Gutter 2 on the Side 4. While the rounding of the long gutter strip with the help of the half-pipe and core wires up to Ø 4 mm is relatively easy, it is known to become more tricky below this level. This is why I have clamped the brass core wire (Ø 2 mm) this time over the rounded gutter strip on the table and pressed the edges from both sides by sliding along with a rounded magnet, because unsightly kinks can be prevented this way. This is followed by the last rounding step with the core wire Ø 1.5 mm. Any slight longitudinal distortions of the gutter can be compensated on the narrow rounded plastic core strip, so that Gutter 2 is finally finished too. As the crowning end of the gutter chapter, next the gluing of the Gutter Supports follows, but this time also with the Gator's Grip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 Hello everybody, before the 14 supports (with lower strip) could be glued to the two gutters, they had to be scratch-built, of course, with full concentration, a calm hand and good eyes. And already the gluing of the sickles on the tiny strips was again the expected tricky matter as with the gutters on the Side 2. Since these are again the same procedures and handgrips, I will only briefly illustrate them by picture. With a few supports as a reserve, the gluing of the supports onto the gutter continued. After the bottom of the gutter was glued into the short piece, the outer support without strip was glued. This time I did not glue the supports on the long gutter individually, but at the same time three at one go clamped between cutter edges. Afterwards, the contact points on the gutter were dabbed with CA and then the core strip with the gutter were lowered to the supports and thus glued. Subsequently the remaining five supports were glued. Since the last support had not glued completely, it was glued once more. Next, the short initial gutter is glued to the long Gutter 1, this time with Gator's Grip. Later, the Gutter 2 will follow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) Hey folks, yeah, yeah, yeah, still these boring gutters, I can not change it, sorry. In the case of the dull gluing of the gutters, a smooth seating and an exact fixing of the position is very important, so that nothing can shift. Then the seam was gently painted with Gator's Grip and let it to dry. And as one can see, the gluing also holds this time. Tomorrow I will carefully smooth the seam. And so once again back to the Gutter 1 on the Side 2, where the two parts also had to be glued bluntly. Here, at first, the fitting test of the two parts, which I made this time even more securely aligned and stabilized before gluing. And this gluing was also successful, and can be smoothed tomorrow. Edited October 16, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 Hello everybody, and thus to the last round with these tiresome gutters. Here was only still missing the Gutter 2 on the Side 4, the beginning of which is shown here. Source: apollosaturn.com (John Duncan) The gutter begins directly on the girder between the Bay 10 and 11 and then runs without interruption to the end of the Bay 18, whereby the last part behind the downspout becomes again lower towards the outside. Source: apollosaturn.com (John Duncan) And these are the two parts of the gutter. At first, the gutter bottom was glued with CA, again using Teflon foil as gluing protection. And then it went on with the supports, And then it went on with the supports, which were clamped for exact fixing again between Cutter Blades. Then I have left the gutter alone, and thereafter examined the seat of the supports, which was okay. This was followed by the last dull gluing of the two gutter parts with Gator's Grip, which again has worked great. Hence all five gutters with a total of 34 supports have finally been scratched, above for the Side 2, and below for the Side 4, and now I feel truly relieved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 Hello everybody, after the wearisome Gutter chapter has been finished except for the paintwork, I want to take a relaxing look ahead and bring the highlight of the lighting of the MLP back into the game, which will soon be back on my agenda. During my first inventory (2014) I had found these 21 lamps on the Side 1, Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6) which I had to correct in hindsight, since the Lamp 5 during the STS-6 (1983) did still not exist, like one can see in this picture of the STS-28 (1989), but rather much later, whereby the number of lamps is reducing to 20. Source: NASA Since the wiring design of the Super-Current bank was construed on max. eight LEDs per circuit, my original lighting plan included these three circuits with a total of 20 lamps. During the preparation of the later installation of the circuits on the model, it is important from a practical point of view to think about how the thin leads and the return conductors of the individual circuits should be laid preferably. Withal it is necessary to consider how to pass with leads and lamps through the narrow spaces under the canopies between the pipelines and struts and past the tiny fittings and also to glue them, whiat should not be so easy. In my first lighting trials, the matter was easier, because I had then only provisionally laid the individual LED wires under the canopies, which now inevitably needs to be done differently in the final solution. That is why I have changed the division of the circuits, which now looks like this. Thus there will be a circuit (red) with eight LEDs connected in series, and two circuits with six lamps each. Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6) Therefore I imagine the installation so that the three leads are led through the front right Pedestal, preferably detachable via mini-connectors, in order to be able later to let drive the Crawler with the MLP a short piece on the Pad diorama. In contrast to my original plan, it will be more favorable to lead the first circuit (red) along the wall to the right Access Platform and then under the LH2 Access Platform. As with the other two circuits, the return wires then run via a Ground (GND) bus below the left Access Platform and the front left pedestal. The installation of the second circuit (yellow) will presumably be the most difficult act because the place under the Blast Shield over the valves of the LH2 Valve Skid is very tight, as one can easily see here. But we'll work it out somehow ... The installation of the third circuit (light blue) hopefully will be a bit easier, because there is more space above the LOX Valve Skid and under the left Blast shield. As far as with this little trip to the illumination of the clouded minds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 5, 2017 Author Share Posted November 5, 2017 Hello friends, after my gallstone calmed down again and can stay on parole for the time being, where he is, I can finally turn the LED switch back again to clarify a few last details with the MLP lamps and try out. First of all, I want to introduce my Super Current Bank, which a friend of mine had designed and built in an ingenious way for illumination of my Launch Pad Diorama. Here again briefly to the profile of this "Marvel Box", whose performance capability we deliberately generously constructed, which provides the following Constant current circuits: - 46 current circuits (adjustable from 0.6 ... 5.6 mA) for the normal lighting of the FSS/RSS, as well as of the MLP and the Crawler, - 6 current circuits (adjustable from 0.6 ... 5.6 mA) for warning lights (switchable to flashing), - 6 current cuits (fixed at 12 mA) for flood light poles on the pad, - 2 current circuits (fixed at 220 mA) for the overall lighting of the diorama In each of the two circuits (220 mA), 2 LEDs can be connected in series. In each of the other circuits, however, up to 8 LEDs can be connected in series. That gives the impressive number of total 464 LEDs (368 + 48 + 48), which I will not exhaust corresponding to my previous planning. Before I react to the red LED (0401) for the Warning lights connected to the Current bank in the picture above, I have scrutinized once again the relevant lamp shapes for my pad model, initially adopted by the Apollo LUTs at the beginning of the Shuttle program and later replaced by more modern lamps. At that time there were lamps both with reflector (Type A) and without reflector (Type E), and this type also with red globe (Type F), as it was used for the warning lights. Source: NASA In the Tower (FSS) and on the RSS the lamps with reflector were mostly installed, Source: NASA Source: NASA for which I have used expanded ferrules (1 mm²) with inserted beads for fixing the LED wires. With the exception of lamps 2 and 3 (yellow) and lamp 2 (light blue), all lamps on the Side 1 are type A and have a reflector, Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6) what one can see a little more clearly in this picture section. Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6) As a reference measurement for the dimensioning of both lamp shapes served me the width of the webs on my MLP walls of 1.5 mm. Source: NASA And so back to the first image with the red LED for the warning lights, which works perfectly with the Current bank, only it does not blink quite as fast as this one. Since these lamps without a reflector are slightly smaller, I have used slightly smaller ferrules (0.5 mm²), which need not be widened as much as the sleeves for the lamps with reflector (left in the picture). The difficulty with these lamps without reflector is to find a suitable glass bead for the glass body, for which I have tried different bead sizes. Here is e.g. a cylindrical shape, and here a roundish bead, which should fit better in size. The sticking point here is that the LED also has to fit into the bead, which is why only the smallest types 0401/0402 with dimensions 1.0 mm x 0.5 mm x 0.5 mm (LxWxH) are suitable for this. Then I still found this smaller bead, which fits even better with this lamp shape without reflector. And with that I want to content myself for today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 Hi friends, I can still remember very well how I have rubbed my eagle eyes at that time three years ago, when I did a lot of extensive analysis during my Lighting Chapter, as one can see here for the RSS ... Source: NASA Here is another amazing impression of the Pad at night, showing Challenger's countdown for mission STS-41B (1984). Source: NASA But until then there is still a long and challanging way to go ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 Hello everyone, today I have first expanded a handful of the larger ferrules (1 mm²) with a center punch from 2.3 mm to 2.8 mm diameter, for which the cordless screwdriver only needs to run a few revolutions, otherwise one is fast at Ø 3 mm or more. Then I experimented a bit further and tried to expand also the slightly smaller ferrules (0.5 mm²) to Ø 2.8 mm. At this sleeve, the smaller diameter of the tube with 1.4 mm is still slightly smaller than that of the larger ferrule with 1.8 mm, which would fit much better to the socket diameter of my lampshades. The only question was whether the sleeve would endure the expansion, or whether the lampshade would crack. On my first attempt, I was probably a bit too impetuous, which can be clearly seen on the cracked lampshade on the right in the picture. To the left are the expanded 1 mm² ferrules, which did not mind this expanding. Therefore, I proceeded much more cautiously on the second attempt and checked the lampshade diameter from time to time with the caliper gauge. Everything went pretty well up to Ø 2.5 mm, as you can see here, but at Ø 2.8 mm the first mini-cracks appeared on the edge of the lampshade, which is why I will rather use the larger ferrules. And here's already a look ahead to the mainly installed lamp shape on the RSS, here on Pad 39B during the preparation of the Challenger on her last, unfortunately fateful mission STS-51L (1986). Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (James MacLaren) And here are my first attempts compared to a simple lamp from the Revell Kit (right). Probably for these lamps thin brass tubes will later be used into which the LED wires then will be threaded respectively soldered. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 Hello everybody, on closer inspection, however, the lamp Made by Revell is too rustic for me, which I can not make friends with, especially as the tube seems also too thick to me. And since the lamps are getting a bit more filigree anyway, I have taken measurement at the RSS-lamp once more. And behold, my sense of proportion has not deceived me again, because the tube should have a diameter of 0.4 mm, Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (James MacLaren) while the Revell tube with 1 mm is twice as thick, which can be seen in the following photo. This is for comparison a brass tube with Ø 0.5 mm, which would match the lamp size well, compared with the overlying lampshade, which is a little smaller with Ø 2.8 mm than my first samples with about Ø 3 mm (left). And as one can see, the 0.1 mm thin LED wires let also thread into the tube, so everything is okay. All we can hope is that one can bend the tube cleanly around the rounding without a kink, but we'll manage that too, I guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 (edited) Hello everybody, Oh well - pipe bending is always such a tricky thing and can also become a complete flop. But what's the name of it? Well begun is half done. And my first bending test with the 0.5 mm brass tube looks quite useful already, right? Which in turn confirms my credo: Nothing is impossible!!! BTW, maybe the pulling in of the two 0,1 mm wires is even favorable for the bending of the brass tube, since its diameter is 0.3 mm, which both wires almost fill. Edited November 10, 2017 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 16, 2017 Author Share Posted November 16, 2017 Hello friends, here is another update to the marked three lamps without shade on the Side 1, as well as for the hazard warning lights with this shape here. Source: NASA In my search for even better matching ferrules for this lamp shape, I've actually found something, and indeed at Voelkner, who offers the smallest available size 0.1 - 0.3 mm². And although that are equal to 100 pcs, which I guaranteed will not need, so I grabbed it, and today the package arrived, so of course I had to try it. These sleeves have a shade diameter of 1.5 mm, which corresponds exactly to the width of the MLP girders, and would therefore be even better suited than the previously tested 0.5 mm² sleeves with Ø 1.9 mm (shade). An LED 0402 can also be threaded into the sleeve, as you can see on this picture. To the left are the 0.5 mm² and the 1 mm² sleeves. And if the back part of the shade is slightly widened, then the shade looks like this (right) and its shape would therefore fit even better. But since there probably are no matching transparent or red glass beads for this size, which should have a diameter of approx. 1.3 mm, one would have to apply the glass body above the LED with transparent epoxy resin. But wether that would work, I do not know ... Let's try and see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 17, 2017 Author Share Posted November 17, 2017 Hello everybody, once more back to the Tube bending. The wires I have threaded before, especially since that would be one of the two options in the later installation. But since I for myself was unsure how far I had threaded the wires, I have checked it out. And as one can see here, the wires actually went beyond the arch, so they might have been a bit of a bending aid. But there is also this second option here, which had brought a friend at the Raumcon forum into play at that time. In this case, only one wire (anode) needs to be threaded into the tube, the other wire (cathode) could be separated and then soldered at both ends with the brass tube and thus use it as a return conductor (GND). When using brass pipes, of course, there is the risk of sharp edges, which is why you have to debur the separation points at the tube ends carefully or round off, so that the protective varnish of the LED wires stays intact and there is no short circuit is caused. That I have tried with my thinnest drills, first with a drill Ø 0.3 mm, which did not fit into the opening, but hopefully has served for deburring, and then with a drill Ø 0.25 mm for cleaning. Then I have cut my first bent tube to length, also deburred the ends, and then tried to thread in both 0.1mm wires one at a time to test whether or not the bow can be run through. That was the expected tricky affair, and threading alone was not for the faint of eyes. In the process, I first have slided the one wire from the long side into the opening and carefully felt my way to the bending so as not to unnecessarily bend the wire out of shape, which worked out well. And after a short standstill it went around the arch and out at the other end. The second wire then made some more problems and only progressed a few millimeters, then I had to grasp again. But as one can see, it finally came to the fore again at the other end. Whether the threading would be easier from the short side, I do not know what one could try. In any case, the soldering on the tube could be avoided this way. That's it for now, maybe there are still useful tips from this round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Hello everybody, as I see you have no opinion or suggestions on this issue. Anyway, let's go, because with regard to the glass body for the lamps without a large lampshade, I have at least gotten a tip from a friend from the Paper Modelers Forum, who has found out a manufacturer of smallest glass beads in the Czech Crystal Valley, which I could perhaps contact to possibly get a handful of samples for testing. These mini beads Delica-RH / 321 11 001 (1,3 x 1,3 mm) could be a possibility with their size, and Macco-RH / 321 11 001 (1 x 1 mm) would also be interesting. Source: preciosa-ornela.com Crucial would be the inner diameter, which I have estimated from the image to 0.65 mm, which would be to check, which is why I have just asked there once. Similar mini beads (Ø 1.3 x 1.1 mm), which would fit and would also be suitable for threading the LED, I have in my stock, but unfortunately they are silvered and not transparent or red-transparent. So the matter does not seem to be hopeless. So long! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 We're not giving you a whole lotta love, are we Manfred? ... gee, have you noticed, there's not a lot of activity here on this forum. But I'm sure we'd love to give you some advice, but, from my point of view, you are in uncharted territory. You are the trailblazer in scratch building and I, for one, am learning from you. You're building things, in such a careful, meticulous manner, that I haven't seen on any other forum before. The way you're building and, as I've said before, in tiny 1/144 ... is inspiring! It's great to watch you, through your story-telling photos, using your own creative jigs, how you develop a solution, to a specific problem, through trial and error. It's Just ... re-mark-able! We're still watching ... watching a Master scratch builder and absorbing ... and learning. And not settling for 'close enough'. When I read this thread, the constant word I hear in my mind is ... WOW! Keep up the great work and know that we're still watching! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted November 25, 2017 Author Share Posted November 25, 2017 Hi Pete and thanks for your great laudation, which makes me very happy because it is honestly meant. BTW, it sounds almost as if you were the speaker in the mission of the forum community, which seems to be paralyzed from a kind of photobucket shock, which is really very, very pity ... Whenever I want to access the old threads with lots of amazing photos of you guys, only these stupid photobucket error images are staring at me, what a disaster, because a thread without pictures is a dead thread in my eyes. In that sense, I can understand when many of you are tired of posting ... But head up my friends - life goes on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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