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Space Shuttle Launch Pad 39A with Challenger STS-6 (1:144)


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On 5/20/2018 at 5:00 PM, habu2 said:

Based on drawings and photos in the book(s) by Dennis Jenkins the Realspace parts look to be overly bell shaped (too much curvature at top) where the Newware parts might be too slim?  Hard to tell without a better side view. 

 

Jenkin’s book lists dimensions as 7.8 ft (93.6”) diameter and total height as 13.9 ft (166.8”).  Scaling dimensions from that drawing I would say the height of the bell is ~100” at the point where the heat shield intersects the bell. In 1/144 that would make the bell diameter 0.65” (16.5 mm) and bell height 0.7” (17.8 mm). Scaling from the same drawing the outer diameter of the bell at the top (at heat shield) would be ~45” or 0.31” (7.9 mm) in 1/144. 

 

edit: found the same drawing on someone else’s website:

 

SSME.gif

 

Thanks Mike for your nice response. :worship:

 

I know this drawing, because I also have D. R. Jenkins' Shuttle book, which is really an awesome source. speak_cool.gif

 

By using this drawing I come to a Nozzle Length L2 of 17,3 mm (1/144), as well as to similar dimensions like you. up040577.gif

 

PKdful.jpg

 

Here is a comparison of the dimensions of all four Nozzles with the original based on this drawing. top.gif

eh9s3r.jpg

This confirms the visual impression that the RealSpace Nozzles look a bit too plump and are larger than those of Newware, which is also illustrated by this image. 

 

x2QHZC.jpg

 

And that's why I can live well with the Newware Nozzles and I'll most likely use them. up040577.gif

Edited by spaceman
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On 5/20/2018 at 5:26 PM, crowe-t said:

Manfred,  I can't wait to see the stack come together.  The Real Space SSME's are a bit oversized but once installed/painted and the whole stack is together they'll look fine.  I used them on my Revell shuttle stack.  I actually like how they look, being slightly larger than they should be.

 

The Newware SSME's are more accurate looking.  Maybe not 100% accurate but are more accurate.  I do believe the openings of the Airfix SSME's are somewhat accurately sized and they look about the same size as the openings of the Newware SSME's.  With the stack in the upright position the SSME's won't be seen too much.  

 

Mike.  

 

Thanks Mike, :worship:

 

I can still remember your great Stack well, speak_cool.gif and those who do not know that the RealSpace Nozzles are a little too big will find them great. up040577.gif

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38 minutes ago, Hotdog said:

Another alternative would be Niart17's 3D printed SSME's in 1/144.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/MVGLP482R/1-144-scale-space-shuttle-ssme?optionId=42883260

 

I fully agree with you, Brian, 

 

BTW, Smooth Fine Detail Plastic is Shapeways' new name for FUD, right? Hm, maybe I should treat myself to those too? smiley215.gif

 

But then I'm back to the damn support wax ... smiley_worship.gif

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Hello everybody,

 

in connection with the planned Flour-Technique for the production of the ET's Instafoam insulation I receiced a hint by David Hanners in papermodelers.com forum, that this structure alone  would not be sufficient, in order to faithfully reproduce the ET. nono.gif He meant that I would necessarily have to consider the typical annular bands in the insulation too, wherewith he probably wanted to challenge me. top.gif

 

Maybe some of you know David Hanner's contribution "Detailing the Space Shuttle" in Michael Mackowski's "Space in Miniature #3" book. 

 

When he built a Shuttle Stack (1/144) ages ago for this contribution, he coated bands of the ET with liquid cement to soften the plastic, then scuffed the surface with heavy-grit sandpaper, turning the ET during he sanded. He worked in sections, and finally he softened it up with medium sandpaper. up045518.gif

 

Unfortunately I have only a black&white copy, on whose figures one cannot see the details of his stack clearly enough. rolleyes.gif 

 

Although I had an idea what he meant with the annular bands, I was not sure.

 

But Michael Mackowski was so nice and had thankfully sent me some scans of David's original photos like these here. speak_cool.gif

 

up063224.jpg

 

up063225.jpg

 

up063226.jpg

 

As one can see in the photos, he had roughened the ET in circumferential direction with sandpaper, which was a promising approach, but that's not the typical Instafoam structure. i5684_no2.gif

 

Independently, the crucial question for me is always how certain details looked at the STS-6. top.gif

 

Xratqe.jpg
Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6)

 

08pd2368.jpg
Source: NASA (STS-126)

 

BTW, in my view, not this structure but the Intertank is the dominant structural feature of any External Tank, up045518.gif especially since this band/ring structure is not always very distinct. rolleyes.gif

 

But at least he made me think, though it could surely become difficult to create such a regular as well as delicate structure. hmmm.gif

 

My idea for the ET front end is relatively simple and came up when I looked at my WSF-IT, especially at the sight of the fine ribs in the Thrust panel.

 

2rdfBn.jpg

 

There are 26 ribs in this panel, which is approx. 24 mm wide, corresponding to approx. 0,9 mm for one rib. 

 

Therefore, I imagine this ET front part as WSF 3D print with adjacent annular bands at a distance of about 0,9 mm. 

 

U7Xhv3.jpg

 

It would be ideal if these bands would become flatter towards the nose. Or one could choose a uniform height and sand off these bands softly to the nose. 

 

But I think that a good 3D designer can easily model such a front piece, which is why I have already asked Michael Key, if he could do this job. top.gif

 

In this image I tried to count the bands from bottom to top, which is not that easy, and came to about 55. cant-believe-my-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif

 

H5aeGx.jpg
Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6)

 

Depending on what this structure of the 3D front part looks like, one could also use the Flour-Technique to level out the gaps if necessary. 

 

For the ET rear part (185 mm), this approach would also be possible in principle, although I do not know what height Shapeways can print. But even a division into three parts would be conceivable without thinking about the costs. eek.gif

But I could also imagine a different solution without 3D printing, with a lot of small Evergreen strips plus Flour-Technique, or better not? idea1_2.gif 

Maybe I'm dreaming about it now, because meanwhile it has become late again and I'll go to bed now quickly ... schlaflos.gif

Edited by spaceman
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Manfred,

 

Check out Simon Atkinson. He is a master modeler and here is his 1/72 shuttle creation

 

http://www.satkinsoncreativearts.com/modelmaking

 

He used a lathe to get the grooves in his external tank. Not sure how this would look at 1/144 scale, but might be an idea worth exploring.

 

http://mediaprocessor.websimages.com/width/544/crop/0,0,544x848/www.satkinsoncreativearts.com/SA 00104editsml.jpg

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Thanks Brian for your great hints, :worship:

 

I have checked out Simon Atkinson's websites, he is really an exceptionally gifted modeler and artist. lob2.gif hi.gif

 

Looking at his awesome 1/72 Shuttle Stack,

 

SA%2000104editsml.jpg

Source: satkinsoncreativearts.com

 

3hqkC0.jpg

 

the grooves in the ET's insulation look a bit too pronounced, because he did use a lathe, that will only produce perfectly uniform grooves, which is nevertheless a remarkable approach for simulating the grooves. top2.gif


Nevertheless, I think that this structure could also be simulated for a 1/144 ET, if one can realize the corresponding spacings of approx. 1 mm by a clever 3D modeling of a narrow and very flat wave-like ring structure by creating fine grooves (approx. 0,3 mm) in about 1 mm intervals, much like between the fine ribs in the Thrust Panelstop.gif

 

Regarding the Spray On Foam Insulation (SOFI) of the ETs one has to distinguish early and later missions, as for the Orbiter's TPS Tiles and Blankets.

 

In the earlier missions like STS-6, this wave-like ring structure was more pronounced, while it is less or barely visible in later missions. Later at the SLWTs, the SOFI was also much more evenly applied and reworked. up040577.gif

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Hi Mike,

 

right now I'm just looking at the annular ET Texture, which is for my taste a bit  too monotonous and smooth and thus is seeming almost a bit artificial at Simon Atkinson's ET, but that's purely a matter of taste ... cool.gif

 

But I could also imagine a Scratch solution. For this one would have to glue "only" about 170 flat Evergreen strips, maybe 0,25 mm x 0,5 mm or 0,25 mm x 0,75 mm, each at a distance of about 0,5 mm around the rear part of the ET, covered by a Flour technique coating, whereby such a wavelike ring structure could arise. hmmm.gif

 

Also conceivable would the smallest Evergreen half-round profiles (1 mm), glued directly next to each other, which could be smoothed gently before the flour coating with sanding sponge (1000-2000), which also should lead to a wavelike and textured surface structure, which would not seem so dominant. 

 

 This one could check out in a test with a little less strips. up040577.gif

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2zf4jyv.jpg

 

One last point of reference is the 1/144 scale Bandai space shuttle. Before this came out, I would have thought ET bands at this scale would be overkill. And perhaps they are. But Bandai does a decent job, by not going overboard and keeping it subtle. If anyone can pull this off, I know it is you, Manfred! :thumbsup:

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Thanks Brian for sharing this awesome Bandai Stack and for your nice compliment. :worship:

 

As it looks like the great display model is standing at your home? smiley215.gif

 

IMG_2024.jpg

Source: diecastaircraftforum.com (SuperKungFu)

 

Bandai's approach to the ET bands is not perfect indeed, but it's going in the right direction. up040577.gif&key=327a20a361d18ad6d35cabf

 

IMG_1941-1.jpg

Source: diecastaircraftforum.com (SuperKungFu)

 

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Hi everybody,

 

therefore quickly back to the ring-like ET texture, which I have imagined so far as a very shallow wavy structure. cool.gif

 

Last but not least, in the NSF forum I have still found now a Hi-Res. photo of the during STS-6 used ET-8 on which one can recognize this structure very well on the long LH2 Tank, which confirms my previous imagination. top.gif

 

1360612.jpg
Source: nasaspaceflight.com (woods170)

 

As one can see on this, in the SOFI insulation foam there is in fact a uniformly rounded wave structure, which possibly was to be realized either as 3D print (WSF) or by means of my envisaged variant of Evergreen strip-rings + Flour techniqueup045518.gif

 

And that also explains now the alternating light-dark effect of the bands, which is not a color effect, but only created by the shadows of the "hills" in the "valleys". up040577.gif

Edited by spaceman
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Dear friends,

 

sadly we must take note that Donald H. Peterson, one of the crew members of STS-6, passed away a few days ago. 

 

750px-Sts-6-crew.jpg
Source: commons.wikimedia.org

Seated are Paul J. Weitz (left), crew commander, and Karol J. Bobko, pilot. Standing are Donald H. Peterson (left) and Story Musgrave, both mission specalists.

 

41756716084_523b3bbd3e_b.jpg Source: flickr.com (NASA Kennedy)

 

This sad news consternates me deeply, especially since Paul J. Weitz left recently too.

 

Forever remembered, may they all rest in peace ... pray.gif 

 

Edited by spaceman
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Hello everybody,

 

after the tough struggle for the rings of the ET smiley_worship.gif now back to the grooves of the last FUD-IT, whose ultrasonic cleaning in the Dental lab was still on the agenda. cool.gif

 

For that I had procured the recommended intensive cleaner TICKOPUR R 60

 

up063248.jpg

 

which we wanted to use based on the conditions recommended by BANDELIN

 

up063249.jpg
Soure: bandelin.com

 

Since this cleaner i.a. Sodium hydroxide (5-15%), also called caustic soda, caution was bidden, which is why protective gloves were required.  schlaumeier.gif

 

After the nice colleagues of the ChiliDent Lab were back on board after their short break, it was finally time and the Final Countdown was imminent. top.gif

 

In the beginning of May in my Post May 4 I had presented the critical areas with the strongest wax nests and captured in pictures.

 

In order to shorten the cleaning time, we have increased the concentration of the TICKOPUR to approx. 20 %. Through the rubber ring, the height of the glass insert in the ultrasonic bath could be adjusted so that it hung about 3 cm above the bottom of the tub, which is as important for optimal cleaning as filling the tub with the same solution, 

 

wm2Unn.jpg

 

that the boss has personally mixed.  up045518.gif

 

XaW0Zt.jpg

 

Due to the size of the glass insert, the Intertank could be inserted lengthwise, which is also advantageous for the cleaning effect. 

 

After setting the thermostat to 70 °C, the appliance was switched on by the assistant, cool.gif

 

8h3NL1.jpg

 

40ynJ3.jpg 

 

and the bath began to bubble. speak_cool.gif

 

wSYaxk.jpg

 

After every 30 minutes, the IT was turned a quarter turn further. Overall, the cleaning time was about three hours.

 

After that, the tank looked white and completely clean, which one could already see at first glance. top2.gif

 

meguag.jpg

 

tPnShb.jpg

 

So finally the work was done, and with a tip into the kitty I thanked me once again and light-hearted said goodbye. yahoo.gif

And as one can see in this photo, the cleaning was really perfect, because there are no wax residues left,  cant-believe-my-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif which is why no aftertreatment was required too.

 

J2zIez.jpg 

 

This is especially also illustrated by comparing the photos before and afterwards. top.gif

 

dyakXC.jpg

 

UWo24P.jpg

 

baAJUZ.jpg

 

r3i5LG.jpg

 

And here once again a few pictures of both ITs in comparison, where the FUD-IT looks even more filigree than the WSF-IT

 

glWkFZ.jpg

 

sqH9eI.jpg

 

Nevertheless, I think that one can use both ITs, depending at whim and purse. up040577.gif

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This learning experience took a lot of time and effort to resolve ... but the results! My gosh! These details look GREAT!

( I kept thinking that Michael Key did a superb job, after seeing all the wax disappear! ) That first image of this tiny IT after it's ultrasound bath is incredible! All those details that are now visible and clear ... wow!  

 

So, is this the solution to the FUD material Manfred? Will you need to use professional equipment again, or is WSF more suitable? 

 

Pete

 

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Thanks Pete for your nice compliments. default_bow.gif

 

Yep, the IT looks clean as a whistle, as the saying goes. smiley250.gif 

 

BTW, that was really a tough trial of patience, eek.gif but all's well that ends well. up040577.gif

 

If one knows how to do it, Ultrasonic cleaning is really easy, and now I have the know-how, and all of you too ...  top.gif&key=e896a02d20fce3e69aff6c90ad2a One either needs a good and heated ultrasonic equipment, or one has a good dentist with a helpful Lab team. top2.gif

 

FUD vs. WSF - This an ambivalent matter ... hmmm.gif

 

As I said, one can use both variants as we now know how to clean the FUD-IT.

 

The decision will ultimately depend on how one will build the other two tanks (LH2 and LO2), maybe in WSF because of the SOFI texture and the wavelike bands ... smiley215.gif

 

First I still want to hear what Michael Key will think about it. undecided.gif

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi everybody,

 

after my successful Ultrasonic cleaning of my FUD-IT I am currently on one of my obligatory voyages of discovery, still looking for the origin of this wavelike SOFI structure of the first generation of ETs, which one can see both on this photo of the ET-33 (STS-36) by George Gassaway,

 

STS-36_Feb90_ET-33_BI036.jpg
Source: georgesrockets.com

 

as well as on the LO2 tank (ET-137) in this video (5:14) before Discovery's last mission ( STS-133). top.gif

 

q5fCWX.jpg

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD2iT8hSm0k

 

In the meantime, I was following the traces concerning the ET production, which are known to lead directly to the Michoud Assembly Facility (MAF ), popularly NASA's Rocket Factory. up045518.gif

 

Although I have not found any photos of the SOFI Cells, a friend from NSF forum (psloss) has posted an interesting hint to drawings from the assembly process of the tank production. cool.gif

 

And they come from the PDF Space Shuttle/External Tank System Definition Handbook SLWT, Volume II/2, among others. also this picture here. speak_cool.gif

 

ncxcd5.jpg 

 

On it one can see the manufacturing and assembly cells, in which both the priming (Prime) and the SOFI Application of the LH2 and LO2 tanks, as well as the Intertanks took place.

 

From there all ET parts went into the Cell A, where they were assembled vertically. And of this largest cell at that time, I also found an impressive picture by Jester, namely this one, which is linked to the Hi-Res. image, in which one can see a plate at the lower right corner with Cell A.  speak_cool.gif

 

nPCgvl.jpg 
Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (Jester)

 

This success made me even more curious, and since I really wanted to find these special SOFI Cells of the MAF, I searched further.  cant-believe-my-eyes-smiley-emoticon.gif 

 

The difficulty lies in the fact that Google-searching for SOFI Application & MAF lead almost without exception to actual photos of their equipment there, but it must be noted that in the MAF after the end of the Shuttle-Program 2012/13 all former equipment was dismantled or modified for the bigger tanks of the SLS program, which does not help me much. rolleyes.gif

 

But in this context, I finally found what I was looking for and found this great photo-combination on which the Cell B & C in Building 110 see before (top) as well as after (below) the dismantling, in which the LH2 tanks got their SOFI-TPS. top2.gif 

 

1037349main_BCcombined.jpg
Source: blogs.nasa.gov

 

Since then, at this lace is standing the new Vertical Assembly Center (VAC) with the world's largest Friction Stir Weld Machine for the production of the larger SLS tanks.

 

So far, so good, but that still left the answerless question of the explanation of the typical wavy SOFI structure of the ETs. hmmm.gif

 

As far as I know by now, 90% of the total ET-SOFI insulation was applied with an Automatic Gun Spray System, and only 10% by hand, as can be seen here on the connecting flange between the Intertank and the LO2 tank. cool.gif

 

436450main_JamesDuke_704x480.jpg
Source: NASA

 

But how this automatic system worked in the SOFI cells and how and why this wave-like structure was created during coating still remains a mystery, but which I still want to solve it somehow, smiley215.gif  why the search goes on ... up040577.gif

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Hi Mike,

 

I can understand your special interest, because it's a Hi-Res. upload of one of the last External Tanks, right? top.gif

 

I also followed up on exactly this exciting question, and meanwhile I have received a first-hand answer by Craig Capdepon from New Orleans, speak_cool.gif here during Trimming on ET-122

 

up063809.jpg
Source: facebook.com

 

which was flown during the last mission of the Endeavour (STS-134).

 

2011-2723-m.jpg
Source: NASA

And so we are now close to the SOFI application. up040577.gif 

 

To his Facebook site I came across more or less randomly during my search in the MAFtop.gif but thereto and to your thought later more, because that would lead now too far, especially since I got pretty tired now ... gaehnen.gif ... schlafend3.gif

Edited by spaceman
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Another person you might talk to is Scott "Shuttleman" Phillips, author of the book Remove Before Flight. He was an engineer at Marshall Space Flight Center and worked on the ET. I have a piece of ET foam that he gave me that was taken off ET-138, the last ET flown (STS-135). You can find him on Facebook.

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