Hotdog Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Another alternative would be Niart17's 3D printed SSME's in 1/144. https://www.shapeways.com/product/MVGLP482R/1-144-scale-space-shuttle-ssme?optionId=42883260 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) On 5/20/2018 at 5:00 PM, habu2 said: Based on drawings and photos in the book(s) by Dennis Jenkins the Realspace parts look to be overly bell shaped (too much curvature at top) where the Newware parts might be too slim? Hard to tell without a better side view. Jenkin’s book lists dimensions as 7.8 ft (93.6”) diameter and total height as 13.9 ft (166.8”). Scaling dimensions from that drawing I would say the height of the bell is ~100” at the point where the heat shield intersects the bell. In 1/144 that would make the bell diameter 0.65” (16.5 mm) and bell height 0.7” (17.8 mm). Scaling from the same drawing the outer diameter of the bell at the top (at heat shield) would be ~45” or 0.31” (7.9 mm) in 1/144. edit: found the same drawing on someone else’s website: Thanks Mike for your nice response. I know this drawing, because I also have D. R. Jenkins' Shuttle book, which is really an awesome source. By using this drawing I come to a Nozzle Length L2 of 17,3 mm (1/144), as well as to similar dimensions like you. Here is a comparison of the dimensions of all four Nozzles with the original based on this drawing. This confirms the visual impression that the RealSpace Nozzles look a bit too plump and are larger than those of Newware, which is also illustrated by this image. And that's why I can live well with the Newware Nozzles and I'll most likely use them. Edited May 23, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 On 5/20/2018 at 5:26 PM, crowe-t said: Manfred, I can't wait to see the stack come together. The Real Space SSME's are a bit oversized but once installed/painted and the whole stack is together they'll look fine. I used them on my Revell shuttle stack. I actually like how they look, being slightly larger than they should be. The Newware SSME's are more accurate looking. Maybe not 100% accurate but are more accurate. I do believe the openings of the Airfix SSME's are somewhat accurately sized and they look about the same size as the openings of the Newware SSME's. With the stack in the upright position the SSME's won't be seen too much. Mike. Thanks Mike, I can still remember your great Stack well, and those who do not know that the RealSpace Nozzles are a little too big will find them great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted May 23, 2018 Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 38 minutes ago, Hotdog said: Another alternative would be Niart17's 3D printed SSME's in 1/144. https://www.shapeways.com/product/MVGLP482R/1-144-scale-space-shuttle-ssme?optionId=42883260 I fully agree with you, Brian, BTW, Smooth Fine Detail Plastic is Shapeways' new name for FUD, right? Hm, maybe I should treat myself to those too? But then I'm back to the damn support wax ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted May 27, 2018 Author Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) Hello everybody, in connection with the planned Flour-Technique for the production of the ET's Instafoam insulation I receiced a hint by David Hanners in papermodelers.com forum, that this structure alone would not be sufficient, in order to faithfully reproduce the ET. He meant that I would necessarily have to consider the typical annular bands in the insulation too, wherewith he probably wanted to challenge me. Maybe some of you know David Hanner's contribution "Detailing the Space Shuttle" in Michael Mackowski's "Space in Miniature #3" book. When he built a Shuttle Stack (1/144) ages ago for this contribution, he coated bands of the ET with liquid cement to soften the plastic, then scuffed the surface with heavy-grit sandpaper, turning the ET during he sanded. He worked in sections, and finally he softened it up with medium sandpaper. Unfortunately I have only a black&white copy, on whose figures one cannot see the details of his stack clearly enough. Although I had an idea what he meant with the annular bands, I was not sure. But Michael Mackowski was so nice and had thankfully sent me some scans of David's original photos like these here. As one can see in the photos, he had roughened the ET in circumferential direction with sandpaper, which was a promising approach, but that's not the typical Instafoam structure. Independently, the crucial question for me is always how certain details looked at the STS-6. Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6) Source: NASA (STS-126) BTW, in my view, not this structure but the Intertank is the dominant structural feature of any External Tank, especially since this band/ring structure is not always very distinct. But at least he made me think, though it could surely become difficult to create such a regular as well as delicate structure. My idea for the ET front end is relatively simple and came up when I looked at my WSF-IT, especially at the sight of the fine ribs in the Thrust panel. There are 26 ribs in this panel, which is approx. 24 mm wide, corresponding to approx. 0,9 mm for one rib. Therefore, I imagine this ET front part as WSF 3D print with adjacent annular bands at a distance of about 0,9 mm. It would be ideal if these bands would become flatter towards the nose. Or one could choose a uniform height and sand off these bands softly to the nose. But I think that a good 3D designer can easily model such a front piece, which is why I have already asked Michael Key, if he could do this job. In this image I tried to count the bands from bottom to top, which is not that easy, and came to about 55. Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6) Depending on what this structure of the 3D front part looks like, one could also use the Flour-Technique to level out the gaps if necessary. For the ET rear part (185 mm), this approach would also be possible in principle, although I do not know what height Shapeways can print. But even a division into three parts would be conceivable without thinking about the costs. But I could also imagine a different solution without 3D printing, with a lot of small Evergreen strips plus Flour-Technique, or better not? Maybe I'm dreaming about it now, because meanwhile it has become late again and I'll go to bed now quickly ... Edited July 20, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hotdog Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Manfred, Check out Simon Atkinson. He is a master modeler and here is his 1/72 shuttle creation http://www.satkinsoncreativearts.com/modelmaking He used a lathe to get the grooves in his external tank. Not sure how this would look at 1/144 scale, but might be an idea worth exploring. http://mediaprocessor.websimages.com/width/544/crop/0,0,544x848/www.satkinsoncreativearts.com/SA 00104editsml.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 Thanks Brian for your great hints, I have checked out Simon Atkinson's websites, he is really an exceptionally gifted modeler and artist. Looking at his awesome 1/72 Shuttle Stack, Source: satkinsoncreativearts.com the grooves in the ET's insulation look a bit too pronounced, because he did use a lathe, that will only produce perfectly uniform grooves, which is nevertheless a remarkable approach for simulating the grooves. Nevertheless, I think that this structure could also be simulated for a 1/144 ET, if one can realize the corresponding spacings of approx. 1 mm by a clever 3D modeling of a narrow and very flat wave-like ring structure by creating fine grooves (approx. 0,3 mm) in about 1 mm intervals, much like between the fine ribs in the Thrust Panels. Regarding the Spray On Foam Insulation (SOFI) of the ETs one has to distinguish early and later missions, as for the Orbiter's TPS Tiles and Blankets. In the earlier missions like STS-6, this wave-like ring structure was more pronounced, while it is less or barely visible in later missions. Later at the SLWTs, the SOFI was also much more evenly applied and reworked. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Simon Atkinson did an outstanding job on his 1/72 stack. The ET is amazing. I really like the surface of his shuttle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hi Mike, right now I'm just looking at the annular ET Texture, which is for my taste a bit too monotonous and smooth and thus is seeming almost a bit artificial at Simon Atkinson's ET, but that's purely a matter of taste ... But I could also imagine a Scratch solution. For this one would have to glue "only" about 170 flat Evergreen strips, maybe 0,25 mm x 0,5 mm or 0,25 mm x 0,75 mm, each at a distance of about 0,5 mm around the rear part of the ET, covered by a Flour technique coating, whereby such a wavelike ring structure could arise. Also conceivable would the smallest Evergreen half-round profiles (1 mm), glued directly next to each other, which could be smoothed gently before the flour coating with sanding sponge (1000-2000), which also should lead to a wavelike and textured surface structure, which would not seem so dominant. This one could check out in a test with a little less strips. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hotdog Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 One last point of reference is the 1/144 scale Bandai space shuttle. Before this came out, I would have thought ET bands at this scale would be overkill. And perhaps they are. But Bandai does a decent job, by not going overboard and keeping it subtle. If anyone can pull this off, I know it is you, Manfred! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 Thanks Brian for sharing this awesome Bandai Stack and for your nice compliment. As it looks like the great display model is standing at your home? Source: diecastaircraftforum.com (SuperKungFu) Bandai's approach to the ET bands is not perfect indeed, but it's going in the right direction. Source: diecastaircraftforum.com (SuperKungFu) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) Hi everybody, therefore quickly back to the ring-like ET texture, which I have imagined so far as a very shallow wavy structure. Last but not least, in the NSF forum I have still found now a Hi-Res. photo of the during STS-6 used ET-8 on which one can recognize this structure very well on the long LH2 Tank, which confirms my previous imagination. Source: nasaspaceflight.com (woods170) As one can see on this, in the SOFI insulation foam there is in fact a uniformly rounded wave structure, which possibly was to be realized either as 3D print (WSF) or by means of my envisaged variant of Evergreen strip-rings + Flour technique. And that also explains now the alternating light-dark effect of the bands, which is not a color effect, but only created by the shadows of the "hills" in the "valleys". Edited July 7, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 2, 2018 Author Share Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) Dear friends, sadly we must take note that Donald H. Peterson, one of the crew members of STS-6, passed away a few days ago. Source: commons.wikimedia.org Seated are Paul J. Weitz (left), crew commander, and Karol J. Bobko, pilot. Standing are Donald H. Peterson (left) and Story Musgrave, both mission specalists. Source: flickr.com (NASA Kennedy) This sad news consternates me deeply, especially since Paul J. Weitz left recently too. Forever remembered, may they all rest in peace ... Edited June 2, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hotdog Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 Hi Manfred, Yes, this is the Bandai Shuttle that I own, and it stands next to the Bandai Saturn V. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 6, 2018 Author Share Posted June 6, 2018 Hello everybody, after the tough struggle for the rings of the ET now back to the grooves of the last FUD-IT, whose ultrasonic cleaning in the Dental lab was still on the agenda. For that I had procured the recommended intensive cleaner TICKOPUR R 60, which we wanted to use based on the conditions recommended by BANDELIN. Soure: bandelin.com Since this cleaner i.a. Sodium hydroxide (5-15%), also called caustic soda, caution was bidden, which is why protective gloves were required. After the nice colleagues of the ChiliDent Lab were back on board after their short break, it was finally time and the Final Countdown was imminent. In the beginning of May in my Post May 4 I had presented the critical areas with the strongest wax nests and captured in pictures. In order to shorten the cleaning time, we have increased the concentration of the TICKOPUR to approx. 20 %. Through the rubber ring, the height of the glass insert in the ultrasonic bath could be adjusted so that it hung about 3 cm above the bottom of the tub, which is as important for optimal cleaning as filling the tub with the same solution, that the boss has personally mixed. Due to the size of the glass insert, the Intertank could be inserted lengthwise, which is also advantageous for the cleaning effect. After setting the thermostat to 70 °C, the appliance was switched on by the assistant, and the bath began to bubble. After every 30 minutes, the IT was turned a quarter turn further. Overall, the cleaning time was about three hours. After that, the tank looked white and completely clean, which one could already see at first glance. So finally the work was done, and with a tip into the kitty I thanked me once again and light-hearted said goodbye. And as one can see in this photo, the cleaning was really perfect, because there are no wax residues left, which is why no aftertreatment was required too. This is especially also illustrated by comparing the photos before and afterwards. And here once again a few pictures of both ITs in comparison, where the FUD-IT looks even more filigree than the WSF-IT. Nevertheless, I think that one can use both ITs, depending at whim and purse. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Manfred, I'm happy for you that the cleaning worked this time. It took a lot of work but the result was worth it. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) Thanks Mike, so never give up! Good things come to those who wait ... Edited June 7, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 This learning experience took a lot of time and effort to resolve ... but the results! My gosh! These details look GREAT! ( I kept thinking that Michael Key did a superb job, after seeing all the wax disappear! ) That first image of this tiny IT after it's ultrasound bath is incredible! All those details that are now visible and clear ... wow! So, is this the solution to the FUD material Manfred? Will you need to use professional equipment again, or is WSF more suitable? Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 Thanks Pete for your nice compliments. Yep, the IT looks clean as a whistle, as the saying goes. BTW, that was really a tough trial of patience, but all's well that ends well. If one knows how to do it, Ultrasonic cleaning is really easy, and now I have the know-how, and all of you too ... One either needs a good and heated ultrasonic equipment, or one has a good dentist with a helpful Lab team. FUD vs. WSF - This an ambivalent matter ... As I said, one can use both variants as we now know how to clean the FUD-IT. The decision will ultimately depend on how one will build the other two tanks (LH2 and LO2), maybe in WSF because of the SOFI texture and the wavelike bands ... First I still want to hear what Michael Key will think about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 29, 2018 Author Share Posted June 29, 2018 Hi everybody, after my successful Ultrasonic cleaning of my FUD-IT I am currently on one of my obligatory voyages of discovery, still looking for the origin of this wavelike SOFI structure of the first generation of ETs, which one can see both on this photo of the ET-33 (STS-36) by George Gassaway, Source: georgesrockets.com as well as on the LO2 tank (ET-137) in this video (5:14) before Discovery's last mission ( STS-133). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD2iT8hSm0k In the meantime, I was following the traces concerning the ET production, which are known to lead directly to the Michoud Assembly Facility (MAF ), popularly NASA's Rocket Factory. Although I have not found any photos of the SOFI Cells, a friend from NSF forum (psloss) has posted an interesting hint to drawings from the assembly process of the tank production. And they come from the PDF Space Shuttle/External Tank System Definition Handbook SLWT, Volume II/2, among others. also this picture here. On it one can see the manufacturing and assembly cells, in which both the priming (Prime) and the SOFI Application of the LH2 and LO2 tanks, as well as the Intertanks took place. From there all ET parts went into the Cell A, where they were assembled vertically. And of this largest cell at that time, I also found an impressive picture by Jester, namely this one, which is linked to the Hi-Res. image, in which one can see a plate at the lower right corner with Cell A. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (Jester) This success made me even more curious, and since I really wanted to find these special SOFI Cells of the MAF, I searched further. The difficulty lies in the fact that Google-searching for SOFI Application & MAF lead almost without exception to actual photos of their equipment there, but it must be noted that in the MAF after the end of the Shuttle-Program 2012/13 all former equipment was dismantled or modified for the bigger tanks of the SLS program, which does not help me much. But in this context, I finally found what I was looking for and found this great photo-combination on which the Cell B & C in Building 110 see before (top) as well as after (below) the dismantling, in which the LH2 tanks got their SOFI-TPS. Source: blogs.nasa.gov Since then, at this lace is standing the new Vertical Assembly Center (VAC) with the world's largest Friction Stir Weld Machine for the production of the larger SLS tanks. So far, so good, but that still left the answerless question of the explanation of the typical wavy SOFI structure of the ETs. As far as I know by now, 90% of the total ET-SOFI insulation was applied with an Automatic Gun Spray System, and only 10% by hand, as can be seen here on the connecting flange between the Intertank and the LO2 tank. Source: NASA But how this automatic system worked in the SOFI cells and how and why this wave-like structure was created during coating still remains a mystery, but which I still want to solve it somehow, why the search goes on ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 Manfred, These are interesting pictures, especially the ET in Cell A. Maybe the ET rotates in the cell as the foam is being sprayed on. This is just a thought. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 30, 2018 Author Share Posted June 30, 2018 (edited) Hi Mike, I can understand your special interest, because it's a Hi-Res. upload of one of the last External Tanks, right? I also followed up on exactly this exciting question, and meanwhile I have received a first-hand answer by Craig Capdepon from New Orleans, here during Trimming on ET-122, Source: facebook.com which was flown during the last mission of the Endeavour (STS-134). Source: NASA And so we are now close to the SOFI application. To his Facebook site I came across more or less randomly during my search in the MAF, but thereto and to your thought later more, because that would lead now too far, especially since I got pretty tired now ... ... Edited October 3, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
southwestforests Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 This remains an educational and just plain interesting thread/project. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 1, 2018 Author Share Posted July 1, 2018 (edited) I'm glad if you like it, stay tuned. Edited July 1, 2018 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hotdog Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 Another person you might talk to is Scott "Shuttleman" Phillips, author of the book Remove Before Flight. He was an engineer at Marshall Space Flight Center and worked on the ET. I have a piece of ET foam that he gave me that was taken off ET-138, the last ET flown (STS-135). You can find him on Facebook. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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