spaceman Posted June 1, 2019 Author Share Posted June 1, 2019 Thanks my friend for looking in on me and stay tuned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 13, 2019 Author Share Posted June 13, 2019 Hello everybody, in the meantime, I went into more detail to find out where the interface between the LH2 Cable Tray and the Aft ET/Orbiter Attachments is, or how the cables out of the the LO2 Cable Tray get there, especially since this is a pretty tricky affair and there are hardly any direct photos of this interface. One also should know how the cables run out of the cable tray onto the LH2 Tank from point A via B and C respectively D to the LO2/LH2 Umbilicals and wherefore this gray box (?) is used, which could possibly be a kind of distribution box? Source: NASA Maybe there are useful hints from the forum, if so, then always ago with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) Hello folks, to this question I also consulted my friend DaveS (forum.nasaspaceflight.com), who also had some interesting photos in stock, like this one. Source: NASA on which unfortunately one can not see this interface of the LH2 Cable Tray that interests me, as it is obscured by the Vertical Strut as in most photos. But at least one can see more of the arrangement of this gray 'distribution box', which apparently has such a function. Afterwards, I've continued to search for the interface myself, and as one could already see in this photo, Source: NASA the LH2 Cable Tray seems to run diagonally upwards at the point A, possibly to this 'distribution box', as it also appears in this photo of the ET-8 (STS-6). Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (woods170) The matter got a bit clearer to me when I saw this photo of the ET-119 (STS-121) zoomed in, Source: NASA on which one can see at the point A the continuation of the gray LH2 Cable Tray, but which not directly leads to the 'distribution box' but apparently to the Vertical strut. And then suddenly the penny dropped, when I've again checked this photo again and asked DaveS for it. And on this image detail of ET-122 (STS-134) one can see this interface almost even better. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (Jester) And finally, DaveS confirmed my guess and sent me this detail photo of the ET-125 (STS-122), whereat the orientation is a bit difficult to see at first glance. Who wants, can first try to find one's way before it goes on with the further course of the LH2 Cables, as they still did not arrive their goal at the LH2 Umbilical ... Edited June 14, 2019 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 Hello everybody, okay, I admit that this photo by DaveS takes some getting used to, and I also took some time to find my way, although I've already seen many similar photos, but not yet with opened cable tray. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (DaveS) What strikes all these photos is this ominous 'distribution box', who initially looked orange-brown, as here at the mission STS-6, Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (woods170) or here at STS-47. Source: georgesrockets.com (George Gassaway) Only with the later missions he looked then gray, as in the following picture. As one can see, from this 'distribution box' the yellow marked LH2 Cable Tray seems to branch off, which then on the front of the Crossbeam runs to the other side to the LH2 Umbilical. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (DDG40) The confirmation for my guess came then with this great photo by Scott Phillips, whom I've also consulted, here with the front TPS covering removed. Source: Scott Phillips And with that the hitherto searched interface of the LH2 Cable Tray gradually becomes clearer, which I have circled here yellow, which discharges into the TPS cladding of the Vertical Strut. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (DaveS) And, as I've learned by now, not only the LH2 cables run inside the LH2 cable tray, but also the LO2 cables, which was not clear to me yet. But as I learned from DaveS too, the cable trays that time were named after the ET tanks (LH2/LO2) and say nothing about the cables running in it, but what one has to know. And by this picture-in-picture montage will hopefully become clear, where this place is located, whereby this image is rotated 90° and the TPS cladding on the front of the Vertical Strut is open (blue arrows). In the next photo one can see the opened LH2 Cable Tray in front of the crossbeam with the cables running into it, which lead to the LH2 Umbilical, Source: Scott Phillips as well as here the cable harnesses laid in the opened knee of the LO2 Cable Tray. Source: Scott Phillips And so I now know about how the cable trays and other lines run, and thus can try to scratch this ET/Orbiter Attachments accordingly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 16, 2019 Author Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) Hello everybody, but this is just one side of the ET/Orbiter Interface. But the other side on the Shuttle has to fit too. And therewith it looks pretty poor on the Airfix Kit, because the two Orbiter doors are not present, let alone their deepenings in the opened state, just like one needs it for the Stack (ET/Orbiter). Source: NASA The least would therefore be a solution in which one could glue a Decal or a paper printout of the two doors in the opened state onto the appropriate place, which would look a bit better, namely something like here. BTW, if I remember rightly, Hotdog had provided similar decals in his set, right, Brian? It would be even still better, of course, if the two deepenings were really brought in, however, and then glue the Umbilical decals into, or simply the printout, and the two doors in between, what I could imagine. This is what my friend Mike (egt95) did in this forum here on his STS-1 stack. Source: arcforums.com (egt95) But since this place at the finished stack on the MLP can not be seen anyway, glued decals/printouts without the openings, but with glued doors would actually suffice. In the meantime I started with the modification of the Airfix-Longerons, which protrude anyway and do not rest on flat. These are these stripes on both sides at the end of the LH2 Tank, on which the oblique Thrust Struts and the Vertical Struts are mounted, because these parts do not look like in reality, as one could see already on this well-known photo of the ET-8. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (Jester) For me, it seems, that the SOFI patterns has been leveled in this area, with only the front wedge-shaped part is supporting the oblique strut. And this I have modified by sanding off the Kit-Longerons accordingly, whereby now the front slant ramp must be filled accordingly. And here I have tried to adapt the TPS cladding from the Newware Kit, for which I had to sand off approx. half of the lower block of the Airfix-Strut, however, whereby the lower part of the Resin-cladding seems too clunky to me, which is why it still has to slim down a bit. But every beginning is difficult, just do not panic ... Edited June 16, 2019 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hotdog Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 14 hours ago, spaceman said: BTW, if I remember rightly, Hotdog had provided similar decals in his set, right, Brian? Yes, that is correct Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Have you meanwhile created a Decal sheet for the Early Missions that I can use for my Challenger? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Your tenacity in wanting to discover, and understand, every detail of this hardware is remarkable! You've got us all watching with our "jaws on the floor" ( I hope this translates well! ) ... not just here on ARC but on Britmodeller too. We wish we could help you, but, you're breaking new ground in researching this! I was glad to read that Scott Phillips sent you some images too ... who better to know the details of the ET? I'm enjoying being a spectator! Thanx Manfred! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Thanks Pete for your appreciatory words. And if your jaw is dropping, then I can imagine your astonished face, and have to smirk secretly. But these detailed analyzes belong for me to my understanding of this impressive technique, even if they seem to be too much for some. And Scott Phillips has helped already me with many great images, he was after all close for 30 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
southwestforests Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 54 minutes ago, spaceman said: And Scott Phillips has helped already me with many great images, he was after all close for 30 years. Now there's a man who can honestly and literally declare that he knows the external tank inside and out! And he writes a pretty decent book too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 As one can see here. Source: NASA Scott "Shutttleman" Phillips in the Man Tube. Source: Scott Phillips And he has built many (450) great wooden models of Shuttle Stacks and had them signed by many astronauts, as here in the picture with the STS-1 crew, John Young † (Middle) and Robert Crippen. Source: Scott Phillips And his book Remove Before Flight is a Must Have for any shuttle lover, here with his sponsor Buddy. Source: Scott Phillips Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 Hello everybody, who wants to know more about the ET cabling as well as about the Cable trays and their Thermal protection system (TPS), here one still can find some interesting information. Source: System Definition Handbook SLWT (Lockheed Martin) Source: System Definition Handbook SLWT (Lockheed Martin) As one can see in the first picture, it was distinguished between Internal and External LO2/LH2 Cabling. But there is another important interface, namely the ET/SRB interface between the ET and the SRBs, about whose cables, sensors, etc. the separation of the burned SRBs has been activated. And unfortunately, this interface with the associated Cable Tray is also missing in the Airfix Kit and therefore also needs to be scratched. In this photo of the ET-8 one can see the transition of the Cable Tray from the vertical strut to the SRB Support, where the wiring passes through the Upper Attach Strut. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (woods170) This also makes it clear what these strange extensions at the end of the vertical strut mean, which I have noticed time and again. Source: nasaspaceflight.com (woods170) These are the cable ends running from the root point of the Upper Attach Strut to the Aft ET/SRB Attach Ring (see previous picture). And these are those cables that can be seen in this photo, which can be seen at the bottom of the SRB Cable Tray in the previous image, Source: NASA and then run into the booster via the Upper Attach Strut. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 Hello everybody, although there is now clarity about the SRB struts, I still have problems with the shape of the Vertical strut of the ET/Orbiter Attachment, because the lower part of the Newware TPS-Facing looked a bit too clunky, why I've dealt with this assembly once again and have analyzed further photos. For this I have repeatedly compared these two photos of the ET-8 (STS-6) and first tried to reconstruct the contours of the struts and to bring into agreement, which is not so easy, because the images were taken from different positions and thus certain details are partially obscured. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (Jester) Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (woods170) In particular, the two yellow and blue marked areas have puzzled me, whereby the yellow marked wedge-shaped foot looks somehow different than the one on the Newware strut. Whose chunky form is more akin to the struts used in later missions, as seen here in STS-134 (ET-122). Source: NASA Irritating is also the lower contour directly at the yellow arrowhead in the first image, which does not belong to the strut, but to the flattened SOFI pattern area of the Longeron, which is illustrated in this image by the yellow contour. Furthermore, it can be seen from the blue dimension arrows that the lower foot part is not wedge-shaped as the Newware part. And with this the vertical strut gets this blue drawn contour with a flowing transition to the SRB Cable Tray, which extends to the Upper Strut. This still leaves this question mark at the blue marked recess from the first picture open, which one unfortunately can not see in this last view. This wedge-shaped part seems in my opinion to be a part of the TPS facing which has been retrofitted, this recess probably having been finished later. In contrast to the SOFI Spray applications, these TPS parts were molded separately and mounted individually, just like the Intertank Closeouts. And these are now the estimated dimensions for the scratch construction of the Vertical Strut, which show that especially the chunky foot part of the Newware facing does not fit the mould of the ET-8 and therefore has to be modified. As reference dimension (yellow) was used the diameter of the rear part of the Thrust Strut, which is 16,6" at the original, which roughly corresponds to 3 mm of the Airfix part. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 7, 2019 Author Share Posted July 7, 2019 Hello everybody, what you will have noticed already, but unfortunately I have to slow down a bit, because I have to take care more of my sick wife and our poodle Gino, who suffered two cruciate ligament tears in no time, whose second cruciate ligament tear will be operated next week. But nonetheless, it should go on on the Launch pad. I'm still dealing with the rear ET/Orbiter Attachments, especially since besides the adaptation of the Newware Kit parts, also some things of the Airfix Kit have to be corrected or modified. What looks so nice and vivid on the Reference detail photos, Source: NASA is in scale 1:144 everything much smaller and therefore does not appear so readily feasible by Scratch-building. That's why I've put on the orbiter, and as one can easily see, there's a hell of few place to accommodate the LH2/LO2 Umbilicals and associated Cable Trays as well as GH2/GO2 Press. Lines. And thus immediately to a curiosity of the Airfix kit, after which the GH2 Press. Line directly discharges into the LO2 Feedline (see the small hole just before the bow), which in reality would be a disaster of course. While the GO2 Press. Line is correctly laid and leads to LO2 Umbilical, the GH2 Press. Line runs below the Crossbeam to the other side to the LH2 Umbilical. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (DDG40) Here are two other views with the still too chunky TPS cladding of the Vertical Strut, which I have sanded so that it fits better into the picture. And now more details come into play, which also want to be accommodated. These are the Diagonal Strut, as well as the LO2 Feedline/Umbilical Support Brackets, of which there is also one on the other side of the bow, but which is missing, as one can see on this image. On this drawing one can indeed see the different versions of these LH2/LO2 Feedline/Umbilical Support Brackets very nicely, Source: System Definition Handbook SLWT (Lockheed Martin) however, it should be noted that all these parts are provided with a TPS cladding, which must be taken into consideration when scratching them. Source: NASA Source: NASA These two rings here are needless, because they do not exist on the real LO2 Feedline, as one can see on this image. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (DDG40) On it one can see the last two (out of five) LO2 Feedline Supports with the rings in front of them, which are missing at Airfix, excepting the ring in the next picture, but after that nothing like that comes up before the LO2 Umbilical. And finally to the chunky TPS cladding of the Vertical Strut, which I've slimmed down even further (right), as one can see here. Now I have still to modify the left strut and its cladding accordingly, so that both sides look identically. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 7, 2019 Author Share Posted July 7, 2019 Hi friends, for a better idea of the true size of these parts I've put my Cent coin on the tank. And with some patience, I then have placed the coin on the Crossbeam, so you have a good comparison with the size of the Umbilical Plates. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 Hello everybody, now I will start scratch building of the LH2/LO2Umbilical plates, which look quite nice on the drawing, but in 1:144 these are only about 7 mm x 5 mm small plates, for which I have used Styrene (1 mm). Normally, 1,5 mm thickness would be more correct, but it should be remembered that the upper part of the Umbilical Plates protrudes into the orbiter openings, whose recess I want to avoid, because this place will not be seen later anyway on the shuttle Stack. That's why I'll use 1 mm thick platelets on which then the orbiter rests flat. Source: NASA Since I have to take into account the distance to the Orbiter during testing the small Umbilical plates and tiny Cable trays, I've considered a small stencil (1 mm Styrene, which is much easier to handle. On this stencil I have drawn the openings for the ET/Orbiter Attachment as well as for the two LH2/LO2 Feedlines from my scaled down drawing (1:144), as well as have cut out small paper stencils of both umbilicals. After the plate fits quite well already (the red ones are the Cable trays), now follows the production of the two Umbilical plates, whose drawings I have glued with transparent tape on the 1 mm Styrene plate. In order to be able to cut out and file the small plates, I first drilled the holes (Ø 3 mm) for the Feedlines and plugged in rod plugs, so that the templates can not slip during handling. And then I cut out the little plates, whereat I've always compared it with the contours of the two umbilicals in this larger photo, because the parts are really tiny and also difficult to hold, which was much facilitated by the inserted holding rod. Source: NASA And then I've carefully cut the contours of the stencils with the diagonal cutter and then gradually filed and ground the final shape all around, which was quite tedious. I started with the LO2Umbilical plate. Then the holding stopper could finally be removed, and this is now the finished part. And in the same way followed the production of the LH2 Umbilical Plate. And these are the two finished Umbilical plates, which can now be test fitted on the Attachment. And as one can see, the two parts fit quite well with the attachment. And now a look ahead to the outer LO2 Support Bracket, which is missing on the Airfix Feedline which I have drawn red. Source: System Definition Handbook SLWT (Lockheed Martin) Little by little, the bird builds its nest ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 13, 2019 Author Share Posted July 13, 2019 Hello friends, for an even better overview when fitting and assembling the Umbilical plates and Cable trays I have made the same template of Acrylic glass (PPMA), which now allows the total vista, what is certainly an advantage when handling. Okay, I could have come to that immediately ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vidar_710 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 Feeling your pain. I have to do the same work on the Tamiya Shuttle to marry it up to the 747. The decals I have come with all the graphics to do the pits as well as detail the doors. Looking forward to seeing more on how you prep the shuttle. Tracy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 (edited) Hi Tracy, thanks for your compassion. Since two years I'm following the interesting thread 747 Orbiter SCA Mounts Study by Crackerjazz, who is 3D modeling the Orbiter Assemblies for your Tamiya Shuttle 1:100 747, what is really an awesome work. Well, these filigree supports are really quite difficult and seem to be barely feasible in 3D printing, although Joe makes every effort. Unfortunately, the ET/Orbiter Attachments are a bit more complicated regarding the Feedlines and Cable trays and a hard nut, but which I want to crack somehow. BTW, what Decals for the Orbiter Doors did you use? Edited July 14, 2019 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Your skills are wonderful to watch Manfred! One thing that impresses me the most is your ability to think through the 'problem' and work out a successful solution! And I can't help but wonder what you would do with a 1/72 Shuttle Stack ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 Thanks Pete for your nice compliment. Regarding your question, what I would do with a 1/72 Shuttle Stack, is easy to answer: I would build everything exactly as at 1/144, just twice as big!!! But joke aside, 1/72 is a fantastic scale, which enables scratch building of more details in better quality and accuracy - Boon or bane, that's the question ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 Hello everybody, today, I've been dealing with some filing and sanding work, first I had to sand the Vertical Strut of the ET/Orbiter Attachment on the left side in order to make it to fit for the TPS cladding of the Newware Kit and had therefore to modify the Resin part still a little bit. And then there was also the associated left Longeron, which had to be modified too. Since the outer LO2 Feedline Support Bracket was missing anyway and the inner did not quite fit and was a bit too small, I've scratched both Support Brackets new. It should be noted, however, that both brackets look similar, but have not the same shape. The inner bracket is a bit lower, because the Diagonal Cross Strut runs over it and needs the appropriate space, as one can see on this image. Source: NASA Afterwards I've sanded off the two unnecessary wide rings at the end of the Feedline. As one can see here, I have to smooth the line around the stub yet, which has to be removed anyway after the tests and its hole must be filled too, because in reality there were neither the two rings nor this holder. Last night I did not notice the nicks, but even all the more so in daylight. These are the modified parts, whose seat on the ET I've tried next. And as one can see, they fit quite well so far. Now I'm going to modify the too short LH2 Feedline Support Brackets, and then it goes on with the tricky Cable Trays with all due respect. But scaremongering does not apply! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 Hello friends, after I've taken a look at the LH2 Feedline again and comparing it with my Reference photos, Source: georgesrockets.com (George Gassaway) Source: NASA I have decided to remove the rings that are too narrow (0,5 mm) and to replace them with wider ones (1 mm), which are much better corresponding to the original. No sooner said than done! But when I measured the stub then after grinding off the rings, its diameter was instead of 3 mm only 2,7 mm, which I did not like. That's why I took a rod Ø 3 mm and bent it under hot air according to my proven Balsa-Bending-Technique. But as it is sometimes, if one has not bent anything for a long time, this bending process did not go satisfactorily, because the lower balsa support behind the kink was too short, so that the kink of the rod was not bent exactly enough, but was slightly rounded as one will see. I have taken this into account by a longer slope of the support and a more stable clamping of the rod, which has resulted in a more accurate bend, what one can see in the following picture by comparing the two bended rods. Above it are already to see the 1 mm wide rings, which I have cut off from a tube with Ø 4 mm, which I have previously drilled out to 3 mm. Then I have filed the new stub to the required length and drilled a hole for the guide pin (Ø 1,2 mm), and glued it in place. Here the two rings have been pushed onto the Feedline, which I will glue with MEK. And so the new LH2 Feedline looks like after fitting, which I like much better now. And now I could also adjust the Feedline Brackets, which sit directly above the upper ring. But if one looks closely, one can still see a further ring directly below the Umbilical Plate. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (DaveS) And this ring I have now also housed yet, as one can see in these two pictures, wherewith I now let it be good. The odd little cutouts in this ring I prefer to avoid because the ring might not be able to bear it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) Hello everybody, the Support Brackets for the LH2 Feedline also look different and are also mounted differently than the brackets for the LO2 Feedline on the right side. Source: NASA As can be seen from this image, the two LH2 Brackets are not rigidly connected to the crossbeam like the LO2 Brackets, but rather are slightly laterally movable by Hinge elements, which is said to allow unrestricted relative distortion between the rear ET and the orbiter. Source: NASA More precise information about the shape of the outer LH2 Bracket is given by this drawing, from which I have also determined the dimensions, whereby I've used the width of the Airfix Crossbeam (2,7 mm) as reference measure. Source: System Definition Handbook SLWT, Vol. II (Lockheed Martin) However, one has to keep in mind that this is the SLWT Handbook, i.e. this is how the Super Lightweight Tank (SLWT) looked like, which was used starting at the end of 1998, with some modifications in order to reduce weight in favor of larger payloads, compared to the Lightweight Tank (LWT) used for the first time at STS-6 (ET-8). And as a further closer look at just this ET-8 shows, the inner bracket looks a bit different than my previous one, Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com (Jester) which is why I've modified it a bit (right). In order to finally fix the brackets and bond them with the Crossbeam, I put the Orbiter back on and fixed it with tape to see the exact distances and to adjust the brackets accordingly. And in this position, the inner bracket was glued by using MEK with the Crossbeam and the LH2 Feedline. And now to the preparation of the outer bracket, which is drawn slightly longer, to which later the two holders for the LH2 Cable Tray are glued, as can be seen from the drawing. The front cable tray mount is nice to see in this photo, but whereby the two Umbilical photos in the capcomespace dossier are reversed unfortunately. Source: capcomespace.net This was followed by the fitting of the outer bracket, and their cutback to the right length, and finally their gluing with the crossbeam and the feedline with MEK. Then I was able to remove the orbiter again and scrutinize from all sides the LH2 Feedline, glued on the crossbeam. And now I could either glue the LO2 Feedline Brackets or lay the LH2 Cable Tray on the front of the Crossbeam. Edited July 28, 2019 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vidar_710 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 Hey Manfred, Sorry for the late reply. I bought these from http://lakecountyspaceport.com/ The graphics and detail are incredible, and available in 1/144, 1/100, and 1/72 scales. I hope to get to work on my project soon. The work you've done here is inspirational. Tracy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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