mikephilippens Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Aussie-Pete said: No but the angle bracket and shade can be That was my idea too. All those pesky parts are 'easier' to make, and (most important) at the required size and shape. Modeling in 3D might be a bit tricky, but in the end it's just another trick that requires some training and experience. but like I said, you may get more satisfaction out of the creation process with your own hands instead of 'just draw it and push a button'. It's a simplification, but in the end, that's what it boils down to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Firstly Manfred, how are you feeling? Is the shoulder totally 100%? Secondly, this angle bracket solution is brilliant. Your solutions always bring a smile to my face ... your ability to think "outside of the box" is remarkable! Plus, taking the time to document every step and post it all to 3 or 5 different sites is most appreciated by all of us who are watching and learning from your journey. The time you spend Thinking of a solution, Building that result and Posting those results is ... incredible! Thank You! And you 3D proponents, can it really make a 0.7mm x .0.7 mm angle as perfectly as has been demonstrated by Manfred? Is the resolution THAT good? Just curious ... Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikephilippens Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, K2Pete said: And you 3D proponents, can it really make a 0.7mm x .0.7 mm angle as perfectly as has been demonstrated by Manfred? Is the resolution THAT good? Just curious ... For modeling, you'd need a resin (SLA) printer. That has superior resolution and much more detail than filament printers. I've just seen a 'budget' SLA printer that has a resolution of 62micron. Should be enough for most applications 🙂 I'm interested in 3D printing as it can really help building models, making parts to make it more realistic. Currently, I don't really have the space for a 3D printer. Also, resin printers are a health hazard...the resin is poison, so you need gloves, face mask (ohwait...) and good ventilation. You have to clean the result in alcohol and all the stuff you used for printing. So, while it's handy, it's a lot of (dirty) work. I might take it up one day though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 12 hours ago, K2Pete said: Firstly Manfred, how are you feeling? Is the shoulder totally 100%? Secondly, this angle bracket solution is brilliant. Your solutions always bring a smile to my face ... your ability to think "outside of the box" is remarkable! Plus, taking the time to document every step and post it all to 3 or 5 different sites is most appreciated by all of us who are watching and learning from your journey. The time you spend Thinking of a solution, Building that result and Posting those results is ... incredible! Thank You! And you 3D proponents, can it really make a 0.7mm x .0.7 mm angle as perfectly as has been demonstrated by Manfred? Is the resolution THAT good? Just curious ... Pete .7mm? I've made smaller but there are limitations. It's not for everything. But in cases like this where lots of parts are required then 3D would make it simple. I have been building Submarines of late at 1/350. Parts are small and dropping one on grey carpet means never seeing it again. This is where 3D comes in. No more missing parts (to a point depending on modelers ability) This propeller is 3mm tall and 4mm dia. Blade thickness is well under .7mm. They are soft and flimsy when printed but after curing are like thorns. resolution can be as fine as .01um on my photon. This propeller was at .03 Don't get me wrong, I fully appreciate Manfred's awesome modelling. No doubt he's a master modeler. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 16 hours ago, mikephilippens said: That was my idea too. All those pesky parts are 'easier' to make, and (most important) at the required size and shape. Modeling in 3D might be a bit tricky, but in the end it's just another trick that requires some training and experience. but like I said, you may get more satisfaction out of the creation process with your own hands instead of 'just draw it and push a button'. It's a simplification, but in the end, that's what it boils down to. If I had Manfred's talent and patience I would not have gotten into 3D. I did it because I saw Oli Brauns SpaceX stuff but postage is horrendous to Australia so thought I'd give it a go. It's like playing a musical instrument. You can learn a lot on your own but you need a course to be a master or a lot of years on your own. The thing with 3D is it costs nothing to draw and edit and re draw to get the design right. Draw once and print thousands. Massive saving in time. I could draw the light shade and bracket in less than 10 minutes and have it printing in 20. How many? 30 on my print plate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 4, 2020 Author Share Posted September 4, 2020 On 9/3/2020 at 12:14 PM, K2Pete said: Firstly Manfred, how are you feeling? Is the shoulder totally 100%? Secondly, this angle bracket solution is brilliant. Your solutions always bring a smile to my face ... your ability to think "outside of the box" is remarkable! Plus, taking the time to document every step and post it all to 3 or 5 different sites is most appreciated by all of us who are watching and learning from your journey. The time you spend Thinking of a solution, Building that result and Posting those results is ... incredible! Thank You! And you 3D proponents, can it really make a 0.7mm x .0.7 mm angle as perfectly as has been demonstrated by Manfred? Is the resolution THAT good? Just curious ... Pete Thank you Pete for asking how I am and my shoulder too. I'm feeling well, have no pain, and I could let start rotating my arm windmill again ... Thanks also for your great compliments and for the admiration of my work, which almost embarrasses me. But this variant with the folded aluminum bracket will probably not win the race, because it does not seem stable enough to me and the effort seems nearly overdone too. Therefore it was more of a feasibility test than seriously meant. In addition, I really have to rein my mania for crazy details and concentrate on striking details and leave out less important ones. And with these four lamp holders, the last detail is less important, but rather that they serve the purpose and hold the lampshades. And with a length of approx. 2 mm, they can hardly be seen behind the lampshades anyway ... I was rather more likely a bit too euphoric about my discovery that ultimately it was angular profiles what immediately has started my scaling and scratch generator. Therefore a simpler and more stable solution has to be found, as I have already demonstrated with the round rod. For comparison I have added a Brass angle profile (1,5 mm x 1,5 mm), which, however, seems too big to me in terms of proportion. In short, I will probably use an Evergreen rod (0,7 mm x 0,7 mm), which fits well with the lampshade, is easier to glue together and should allow a stable hold. Let's see ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 4, 2020 Author Share Posted September 4, 2020 (edited) And now to you both 3D Printing experts, Aussie-Pete and Mike, and thanks guys for your proposals. I have nothing against 3D Printing, and for special complicated parts like the ET-Intertank (special thank to Michael Key), and for the 16 Main Sprockets and especially the 456 tiny Crawler Track shoes (special thank to Joe, crackerjazz) this technique is very recommended. Otherwise, however, I now trust myself to scratch apparently impossible things and don't want to get out of practice. Regarding your impressive 3D printig skills, Pete, it sounds like it's child's play. But if you think that you could draw the lampshade and bracket in less than 10 minutes and have it printing in 20, then you could print a small series of 30 pieces. They should then have a hole in the lampshade of approx. 0,5 mm in order to be able to thread the two 0,1 mm LED wires. The angular holder schould be approx. 10 mm long. I have estimted the diameter of the Reflector of about 2,8 mm in my scale 1/160, which I have estimated for the lamps on the Side 1 of MLP-2, using the width of the vertical girders (1,5 mm) of my MLP as reference measure. This diameter (Ø 2,8 mm) I've used as reference measure in this image of a typical lamp of the RSS together with other interesting dimensions for scratch building. Source: NasaSpaceflight.Com (James MacLaren) BTW, from the NSF Forum I meanwhile know that Crouse-Hinds was the main lighting manufacturer for NASA from the 50's to the early 80's ... Source: NASA Now I'm very curious already, Pete, let’s get ready to rumble! Edited September 4, 2020 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Here's a quick bracket I did just off your photos Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 5, 2020 Author Share Posted September 5, 2020 Thanks Pete for the quickie. I know that macro shots look a bit rustic, and you can certainly still improve the look too. What is the wall thickness of the lampshade and of the angle profile? Can you show us the 3D model? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 7, 2020 Author Share Posted September 7, 2020 (edited) Hello everybody, finally, the wires (0,1 mm) with the LEDs (0401, 0603) have still to be threaded into the prepared lampshades and glued with UV glue whereby they are sealed and kept safe forever. Source: NASA Besides to these two lampshapes as on the MLP-Side 1, there are each on the RSS and on the transition from the FSS lots of these arc lamps, which were mostly mounted on the handrails, Source: James MacLaren (39B) NASASpaceflight.com whose rustic spherical shape from the Revell Launch Tower Kit I've already "admired" during my first lamps stocktaking analysis. It looked already better with my lampshade, but compared to the lampshade, the stanchion with Ø 1 mm seemed to be oversized to me. On the basis of this photo of my Pad 39B expert James MacLaren, the dimensions could be estimated fairly precisely, using the diameter of the MLP lampshades (Ø 2,8 mm). Only the length of the upper pipe bend (3,1 mm?) should be a little longer due to the shortened perspective. From this it can be seen that the curved stanchion with Ø 0,4 mm may actually only be about half as thick as that of the Revell lamp, which I had suspected. In order to stay roughly on scale, I will use a brass tube with Ø 0,5 mm (0,09 mm wall thickness) into which I will pull in the two LED wires (0,1 mm) expediently before bending the pipes, because this is not impossible in the bent state, but much more difficult is what a stressful test unfortunately showed me impressively. And with a little bit patience and a steady hand, one can even scratch the cable loop on this arc lamp, making the lamp come pretty close to the original in my opinion. I don't want to blaspheme, but when I see the Revell arc lamp I inevitably have to think of the fairy tale of the "ugly duckling" ... And since we are dealing at the moment with dimensions, I would like to briefly refer to the help of my friend James, who I asked about the dimensions of the lamps and the diameter of the handrails on the pad, since at that time he was there day in and day out during building up Pad B. In this way I wanted to clarify whether the diameter of the MLP lamps with shade (Ø 2,8 mm, 1:160) is right and roughly corresponds to the RSS arc lamps estimated by using my STS-6 reference photos, especially since Ø 2,8 mm corresponds to a real diameter of the lampshades of approx. 450 mm, which seems pretty big to me ... In his detailed answer he started with the handrails, which, with a few exceptions, had a diameter of Ø 1,5" = 38 mm = 0,2 mm (1:160) on the entire pad. With reference to the data sheet Steel Pipe Specifications Schedule 40 he then referred to the fact that the Ø 1,5" refers to the Nominal Size (IPS), which corresponds to an outer diameter of Ø 1,9'' = 48 mm = 0,3 mm (1:160). Furthermore, he also pointed out a small but fine difference in his photo, on which one can see in the red circle, that the stanchion of the lamp is attached to the handrail tube with two round steel brackets and has a slightly larger diameter, what I had already noticed before too. James assumes that, for reasons of stability, that for these upright standing handrails were used steel tubes with Ø 2"(Nominal Size) with an outer diameter of Ø 2,375" = 60,3 mm = 0,4 mm (1:160), which corresponds to a real diameter of at least approx. 60 mm, which is quite conceivable. And these two diameters, for the stanchions (Ø 0,4 mm) and for the handrails (Ø 0,3 mm) correspond well with those diameters estimated by me, wherewith the diameters of the MLP lampshades (Ø 2,8 mm) determined by me are also quite realistic. Now it was just a matter of determining the length of the bent end of the stanchion on which the lamp hangs, for which I used another photo of my padblower from its reworked and enhanced NSF thread Space Shuttle Launch Complex 39-B Construction Photos. Source: James MacLaren, Pad B Sories (p. 3), 16streets.com Thereof results a length of approx. 5 mm (1:160), which corresponds with real approx. 80 cm, which seems quite plausible. In this photo one can also see that the stanchion of the lamp is a bit thicker than the tubes of the handrail. But since all RSS handrails in the Revell Kit have a diameter of Ø 0,8 mm and all FSS handrails even have Ø 1 mm and are therefore all oversized, it becomes clear once again that there will still be a lot of work to be done when I will substitute these handrails with PE handrails (Ship's railing (1:150) with Ø 0,3 mm made by ABER of Poland. With this rather sobering outlook, I will leave it at that for today. Nevertheless, friends, nothing is impossible, Strength lies in calmness! Edited September 8, 2020 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 amazing stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 On 9/6/2020 at 1:01 AM, spaceman said: Thanks Pete for the quickie. I know that macro shots look a bit rustic, and you can certainly still improve the look too. What is the wall thickness of the lampshade and of the angle profile? Can you show us the 3D model? Sorry just saw this Grid is 10mm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 12, 2020 Author Share Posted September 12, 2020 Thanks Pete for your nice 3D Model, what's about the thickness of the shade and the angle profile? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 13, 2020 Share Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) .175mm top of shade .25 around the bottom Only done as an example of what 3d resin printing can do. My skills are feeble compared to others Edited September 13, 2020 by Aussie-Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 13, 2020 Author Share Posted September 13, 2020 Thanks Pete, this is very impressive and please no understatement! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 15, 2020 Author Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) Sorry, folks! Edited September 15, 2020 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 15, 2020 Author Share Posted September 15, 2020 Hello everybody, now that the different lamp shapes on the Pad have been clarified and I know how to scratch them, I wanted more clarity about the wiring of the many LED lamp circles with the power supply of my planned Diorama (1/160, 160 cm x 90 cm). And my diorama could look something like this Mini-Diorama (1/700) by Tomytec, whose base plate is only 35 cm x 29 cm "big", but had a moon price of 682,30 €, but has been sold out since then. Source: Andromeda24.de At first I had only planned a fixed arrangement/wiring of all pad structures/components in the starting position for the Dio, i.e. with the MLP with the Shuttle stack on the 6 Pedestals next to the tower, as well as with the Crawler on its way before it. The concept for the power supply for lighting the entire diorama was developed a few years ago in a close exchange with my Raumcon friend Arno (McPhönix), in which the Multi-Currentbank is the central component, which is designed for approx. 60 constant current circuits each with up to 8 LEDs, with which all lamp circuits of the Launch pad (FSS/RSS/Service facilities/spotlights) as well as the MLP and the Crawler are powered. This original concept in the meantime has been revised and modified with regard to more location flexibility or Mobility of MLP and Crawler so that not only this one arrangement is possible with the MLP standing in front of the tower, but also during the MLP approach to the pad, like in this photo during the Challenger rollout (December 8th, 1982) in the fog. Source: forum.nasaspaceflight.com Likewise the cabling between the diorama and the power bank has also been modified so that it can be separated if necessary. In this context, I initially had a detachable cable connection on the MLP via a small plug-in connector on the underbody next to the Pedestal 3, which I have now moved to the other side and planned for the Pedestal 6 besides the tower, since the whole cabling of the FSS/RSS is also planned on this side and all cables/wires can be led down together to the pad bottom. In order to be able to implement this mobile location concept, we have meanwhile also agreed to install our own power supply (three 9 V batteries) in the Crawler, on what also the MLP can be connected by means of a plug connection if it is in a pulled-out position on it. Consequently, a suitable location had to be found for an interface between the power bank and the pad cabling, which is shown in this drawing with the connection plate, Source: McPhönix whereby NASA befriended us with the construction of the pad infrastructure with a small building, as will be shown later. In order to get a better overview of the local conditions on the Diorama as well as an idea of the size of the space available for the wiring of the pad assemblies, I picked out my former Dio draft, what for I've used an older one Google Maps image (2012) on which was seen the Launch Pad 39A in its original form with FSS/RSS, in which I have drawn the floor plan for the diorama in the Scale 1:160 (1600 mm x 900 mm) and marked the MLP and the crawler. Then I've drawn the Dio to scale on paper and put on placeholders for the MLP and the crawler, for which I had to roll up the carpet in the study. And while I kept checking the dimensions on the PC in between, Gino had made himself comfortable at the end of the Flame Trench and began falling asleep ... And since it was already late or early again, we've went to sleep together ... And with that, good night ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 15, 2020 Author Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, spaceman said: What's going on here in ARC, why one can no longer edit the own contribution? Edited September 15, 2020 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 15, 2020 Author Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, spaceman said: What's going on here in ARC, why one can no longer edit the own contribution? Once more, sorry friends, I've found the new button! Edited September 15, 2020 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 16, 2020 Author Share Posted September 16, 2020 (edited) Hello friends, and now let's go from the 2D view into the 3rd dimension, for which I've placed the FSS and RSS of my deceased Raumcon friend Thomas Emberger † (golgi63) onto the diorama floor plan, which I took over as his modeling legacy after his death in order to keep an honorable memory of him on my diorama. May he rest in peace ... Then I also added my MLP, which rounds out the picture further. But as a precaution I quickly put the MLP away and parked it in the closet. And with that back to the wiring on the Dio plate, which I imagined as follows. The planned interface for the possible decoupling of the MLP has been modified and is now laying on the Pad ground besides Pedestal 6 and takes place via a small Connector (Plug with socket). The LED Lamp circles on the FSS and RSS will all be laid downwards on the back of the FSS, especially because there are already lots of pipes etc. there, so that the LED wire bundles will be hardly noticeable. Fortunately, there are also two cable ducts at this point, which I will use of course, in order to lead the LED wires to this small building, which was built there that time thanks to the wise foresight of NASA! This concrete structure with blast doors, housed the freight elevator (on the left) and the door to the stairwell (on the right) which took you down to the Pad Terminal Connection Room (PTCR) at ground level, with further access from there to the roadways and parking areas scattered around the pad, as James MacLaren explained to me yesterday. And in this building at the back of the diorama, the already shown Connection plate can be conveniently accommodated, which is why I've measured out and scaled it right away, from which all cables are then be led to the Current bank, which also has a plug connection. As far as the wiring of the MLP is concerned, the three lamp circles as well as an additional circle for Caution lights are still easily manageable. And for the Crawler Transporter it will certainly be similar, although I still have to do the exact lamp analysis. That should become difficult again, however, since there are only a few images of the MLP-2 Crawler, used during STS-6, let alone still with lighting. But more on that soon. Edited September 16, 2020 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CaptKirk Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 Hi Manfred, Don't know if you'd spotted this. Scott has a wonderful distinctive Scottish accent so you may want to switch the subtitles on to get the full information 🙂 Cheers, Kirk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 24, 2020 Author Share Posted September 24, 2020 Thanks Kirk for this interesting video. Small cause with fatal effect. Afterwards one is always smarter ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 29, 2020 Author Share Posted September 29, 2020 Hello everybody, during my search for suitable ways to wire the LED lamps, I've already looked extensively around some nasatech.net Street View panoramas of the Launch Pad 39A. And since I was there once, I has been going on with further structuring my diorama floor plan, which goes beyond the immediate launch pad area. The entire Launch Complex 39A (LC 39A) has an octagonal configuration and covers around 160 hectares of land. Source: NASA Due to the associated facet-like arrangement of the huge concrete retaining walls (18°) rising at an angle to the launch pad, which can be seen in this photo, Source: NASA extensive measurements of the contours and distances including the conversion of the dimensions to 1:160 were necessary, which was quite laborious and time-consuming. For such measurements, however, one needs the most exact reference dimensions possible, which can be used as a basis, for which even the scales in Google Maps are only partially suitable, as I have found. Therefore as a reference dimension I have chosen the width of the Flame Trench given in NASA Facts Online of 58 ft = 17,68 m ≙ 111 mm (1:160) and have drawn the contours calculated with it in my Dio floor plan. In this image one can see how close the MLP on the Crawler is standing next to the tower. Then I've started to deal with the SSWS inlet pipes in the back corner of the diorama (red frame), which are connected with an elevated water tank standing on a tower, which has a capacity of 300.000 gallons (1.135.620 liters) and a height of 290 ft = 88 m ≙ 550 mm (1:160). Source: capcomespace.net Then I've tried to print out a copy of this place with the bizarre pipe system that was as true to scale as possible in order to stick it onto the Dio floor plan, which is problematic without precise knowledge of the pipe diameters. However, the copy ends right in front of the tower, which was clear to me from the start when planning, but now it didn't want to like to me regarding the perception because it would certainly look somehow strange. But since the water tower is a striking detail next to the launch pad and should therefore not be missing on the diorama, I've decided to add a small extension at this point of the Dio, on which the water tower also has space, which certainly rounds off the overall picture, which Gino does not seem to be very impressed with. Before determining the dimensions of the water tank I have to get an exact reference dimension, because I only know the height of the tower (290 ft ≙ 550 mm (1: 160), and that the water flows through pipes with a diameter of 2,1 m to the pad. Source: NASA And to determine the tank diameter or other diameters from a height is unfortunately too error-prone, as I have already found elsewhere. So I have to do some more research to be sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikephilippens Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 Manfred, sorry for this slightly off-topic question. As you know, I'm planning to build a Challenger too. Mine will be a tribute to the fatal flight ST51L. I may start this winter 😉 But I want to do it right, and although I'm not blessed with you patience and certainly not your skills, I want to make a good attempt. So I'm trying to gather as much reference material as I can. I have the external markings guide from AXM and the Shuttle Stacks graphics guid, SIM3 and some documents about the tiles and thermal blankets. So that's the general painting guide covered. But we need detail... 🧐 But I'd like to have some more photographs. I searched and searched, but I get lots of photos of the other orbiters (obviously, since some of them are on display now) but relatively little of Challenger. And most of them are low quality. I'd like to see how the various discolourations looked like on the orbiter prior to the launch. I have a nice one showing a lot of detail, but that's taken straight after the last landing, so it looks worse. After that, it goes through processing and most of the burning marks are gone. I know NASA has dumped lots on Flickr and I've looked through that. I have found some there, but not very much. In total I have less than 60, and 25% is from other orbiters and another 25% is low quality. Some of the more useful photos show great detail of the tiles, windows, cargobay door hinges and such. Do you know of some resource where I can find high quality Challenger photos? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 29, 2020 Author Share Posted September 29, 2020 2 hours ago, mikephilippens said: Do you know of some resource where I can find high quality Challenger photos? Hi Mike, I have sent you a message. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.