spaceman Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Thanks Mike, okay, once more, as you can see in this pic, only the shuttle stack and the PCR of the RSS are truly 1:144, all the other parts are out of scale. And because I had decided to use the old Revell kit 4911 together with the five Detail Kits by LVM in combination with my MLP and crawler (1:160) I'm looking for a compromise solution, and that's rather a bit tricky. But I will find a way out, wait and see ... Edited August 27, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Hello everybody, in the meantime, I have taken the new, the Revell model corresponding drawing of RSS to make a few comparisons. As you can see from this picture, my previous RSS drawing (red) is slightly wider than the underlying new drawing, so away with it. For further alignment of the FSS to the RSS and the envisaged raise of the FSS by one floor, it is now important, to find the right reference plane for the Shuttle stack (1:144) on the MLP (1:160), regardless of whether the MLP is standing on the Crawler (height 20'=6.1 m) or on the Pesdestals (22'=6.70 m). And this reference plane is the RSS Mainfloor which must coincide with the end of the Payload Bay (PLB) of the orbiter. And both drawings precisely at this level are superimposed. Marked in red is here the raise of the FSS to be carried out according to the assembly instruction by LVM, which is important but only when using the small Revell-MLP. But it is really interesting, If then the tower comes into play. As can be seen immediately, FSS and RSS slip clearly upwards due to the 160's and MLP crawler, whereby Level 95 of the FSS is not on a level with the MLP deck, but slightly higher. And although in the FSS the additional 13th floor is taken into account already, a height difference has resulted at the bottom of the foot, which has yet to be matched. To match this, I have pulled the FSS so far down that Level 95 is now on a level with the MLP deck. And then I also increased the connection structure between FSS and RSS to one raster. Accordingly now even the outer support frame of the RSS has to be raised and an additional staircase to be installed in the local stairwell. These are in my opinion first of all the necessary changes one will probably not get around. On the one hand one has to consider the transitions and walkways between FSS and RSS more closely and hope that there are no unsolvable problems. And then at the other hand the connection of the GOX Vent Arm needs a closer look too. But it's a start, at least, and that's why I'm now looking forward to your advice and suggestions and looking out for everything, by consent to slating. Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ApolloMan Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Manfred, you have my full support to make the whole thing 1/144 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Mike, and thanks for your well-intentioned advice. You are right, that would be the ideal solution, but nevertheless illusory. I want to use my Revell and LVM kits and therefore I must and will live with a compromise solution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) Hello folks, ups, you're apparently all speechless. Today I'll look a little bit closer at the connection of the GOX Vent Arm (OVA) to the FSS. After the drawings I know the tip of the ET is on a level with Level 275 (227'=69.2 m). But from the reality I must inevitably say goodbye in some places like this, finally we live in Revell's crazy world of compromises. And so the ET-tip would lie according to the current state slightly above the "penultimate" level, wherewith I can live, what the heck ... In order to remain in the previous model scale and for better comparison, I have assembled temporarily the OVA with the Beanie Cap from the Revell kit. And as can be seen easily, this blacksmith swing arm is miles away from the reality, at least as regards its structure which is why I'm going to probably scratch rather later. Source: NASA The underlying identical sketch I have now transferred 1:1 to the overview drawing and set with the Beanie Cap on the ET, which is why the arm hangs back in the air, but what should not disturb us. More important is the fact that the arm is located approximately at the correct height, whereby the situation is relaxed yet clear. And here you can see the situation a little more clearly. Whether the length of the OVA is sufficient, will still have to show. That's it for today, now I'm going to look at the RSS from the side to see how the FSS raise affects especially on the lateral support frame with the staircase. Edited September 2, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 ups, you're apparently all speechless. Speechless is quite correct! While reading the last 2 pages I also agree with HughChan in that it would have been much easier to just scratch build the Shuttle Stack! I think I'm like everyone that is reading this thread ... that we are so overwhelmed, so incredulous at your attention to detail, at your devotion to accuracy, that I just don't have anything to add or suggest. Judging by the incredible detail you've added to the tiny MLP, I simply can not imagine the level of detail that you're going to give the FSS and RSS. So Manfred, if we don't reply to your posts, rest, assured that we are all reading, and re-reading, this and shaking our heads in disbelief and appreciation with your accuracy. We "know" that you will not use any of the Revell Launch Tower kit and will scratch build, along with the LVM pieces, a remarkable model. Now, stop reading this ... and get back to work! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crowe-t Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 We're all speechless! This is an incredible project. Manfred, I suspect your original intention was to use the paper model MLP with the Revell Launch Tower kit and be done quicker. However this possibly started growing into this wonderful project. Scratch building the entire complex is something you are certainly capable of doing but that would take even more time and since you already built the MLP at 1:160 that would defeat the purpose. I also understand wanting to take on the challenge of modifying one of these old 'inaccurate' kits such as the Revell Launch Tower kit. I look forward to seeing how you tackle building the Revell kit into something a heck of a lot more accurate. Keep up the great work. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 4, 2015 Author Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Pete and Mike, and thanks guys that you both haven't forgotten me. Okay, maybe these scale problems are not so interesting for all, but I must arrange myself with, willy-nilly. And that's why your kind comments give me encouragement to keep struggling through this stressful problems. Hey Pete, I have already explained HughChan that scratch building the Shuttle stack would be no way out, because only the 1:144 stack fits to the Payload changeout room (PCR) of the RSS. That's the crux! And I fully agree with you Mike, at first I had imagined the solution easier and was happy to have gotten one of the old Revell kits, and later still the awesome LVM Detail kits. But the more one deals with the Revel kit, the more problems arise, as I now find it again in the RSS. There are some things that are downright wrong, because Revell has simplified too strong, what I'm going to show in the next post. Edited September 4, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Youngtiger1 Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Hello folks, ups, you're apparently all speechless. Today I'll look a little bit closer at the connection of the GOX Vent Arm (OVA) to the FSS. :woot.gif:/>/> Manfred, I agree with others as I too have ran out with positive words to say and I think it would be bit silly to post one word responds like Wow or Awesome, but rest assure brother I'm here viewing and saving your every post and cheering on behind my puter screen Your work is incredible and I old love to be there and see it in person when it finished. So, keep it coming my friend as it's great I am amazed at how inaccurate this kit is, as you have shown, and I was hoping revell got this subject 99.999% right, out of the box. Good thing Revell engineers were not working at NASA otherwise our astronauts would have hard time just leaving earth let alone reaching the moon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Hi Manfred -- this is Real Space so it's supposed to be dark and lonely. Just kidding. :) Don't think that no comments means no one is reading. You have a huge fan base far and wide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Youngtiger1 Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Btw, you should consider selling your plains for the launch tower once you have it all figures out. I know, I would purchase them. :thumbsup:/> Edited September 4, 2015 by Youngtiger1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
egt95 Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 :jaw-dropping:/> Wow!!!:gr_hail:/> :popcorn:/> :popcorn:/> :popcorn:/> :popcorn:/> Along with everyone else Manfred, I'm speechless. Keep up the incredible work. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 5, 2015 Author Share Posted September 5, 2015 Thanks my friends for your kind words and for ongoing interest, now I'm speechless. I thought almost that these crazy scale problems might bore you in the long run. But I hope that I so can also help anyone who wants to try it also with the Revell kit. BTW, despite all the criticism one must remember that at that time Revell had barely exact plans or detailed drawings, and therefore some of it is inaccurate. But disappointing is the fact that the new edition also contains the same mistakes, but that is business as usual ... Youngtiger, but if you build the kit OOB, apparently everything fits together. Last but not least Mike, I'll never give up and struggle through, even though sometimes it is jinxed and can knock someone off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 5, 2015 Author Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Hello everybody, and so now for adaptation of the RSS, from which you can see here is a side view, what she looked like at that time in the STS-6. Since there were e.g. yet not Weather Protection System (WPS), which was retrofitted until much later. Source: NASA And from this side view I now need also a drawing. The RSS Mainfloor this time is again the reference plane and beneath the MLP stands at the same distance on Pedestals. For this purpose, the lateral support frame with the local staircase must now be made to fit, because by increasing the FSS must both inevitably be increased by the remaining amount. While in the Revell kit there are still no stairs, but only the staircase as a grid frame, in the LVM Detail Kit no. 5 are included for both relevant PE parts, and also two trucks (Resin-parts, see above), the front truck even with cab. This is the corresponding LVM assembly guide, but this time everything without explaining text. And here are now first two possibilities of adapting of the support frame, wherein the cross struts of the frame should match the floors of staircase. As one can see, for the necessary raise must be scratch built a new support frame, and an additional 7th stair is needed, but both should be feasible. By odd number of floors one can now choose between two versions, either as in this picture, four floors below the middle transverse strut, and three above, or three floors below and four above. The distances between the two struts are in both cases now no longer inevitably the same, but it looks in my opinion still better than if one would select same distances. Because then the middle strut would lie in the middle of the middle floor, which would not result a good picture. Personally, I'd better like the first proposal. But maybe there are other suggestions, what do you think? Edited September 5, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hi all together, as I see, you can not choose you, that is too bad, but I will then continue planning regardless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Please continue as I am unable to respond with my jaw dropped and useless! Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Keep cool my friend, I will continue. Hello everybody, in the RSS image retrieval I had noticed some new incongruities of the Revell kit, to which I want to point out briefly. As you can see in the picture of the RSS back at the time of STS-6, there is an intermediate space between the Hoist Equipment Room (HER) and the Elevator Shaft through which extends the lateral tubular supporting construction. The HER is the room, in which the 90 ton crane is located, with which the Payload Canister is pulled up in front of the PCR entrance over an oblique cable pull, extending through the RCS Room. Source: NASA In contrast in the Revell kit the elevator shaft connects directly seamlessly to the HER, as you can see in this image of the model, what really hurts. Apart from the many lamps that are totally out of place there, the HER does not close directly to the RCS Room, but has a significant distance, as in this picture of the STS-6 is seen here. Source: NASA In this view from the FSS on the RSS you can also see very nicely the room layout behind the RCS Room and the two oblique crane cables. Source: NASA And so there are other incongruities. In the first picture, one can see at the back the two thick insulated pipes (HVAC DUCT) of the huge air-conditioning technology of the PCR, comming from the bottom of the "large-capacity air conditioning" (HVAC PLENUM) which discharge into the PCR at the upper end what can also be seen in this drawing again. Source: capcomespace.net And these two pipes are also arranged wrong in the Revell model, as can be clearly seen in the second image. In the LVM Detail Kit however that has already been corrected. And then I have noticed the simplified RSS framework as distinct from the original, which is indicated only by rectangular profiles on the walls, which is also wrong and looks pretty rustic, like so many others. Here, the rear wall, and here the side walls and front side parts. But as you can see on closer inspection of the original images, the whole PCR complex sits as in a "cage" made of square profiles, tubes and I-beams, which has a certain distance from the actual building wall, which in turn is reinforced by narrow profiles. And this gap Revell has completely ignored, whereby the lateral tubular frame structures sit directly on the walls. Source: NASA What one should now correct of all that would have to be considered again in more detail, but at least the subdivision of the upper rooms, I would think. Otherwise, one definitely had to make sure that thereby the implemetation of many LVM attachments is not impeded because that would be a pity. And there are quite a lot of stairs, walkways, etc. left and right of PCR. Source: capcomespace.net That's it for today with the fault analysis. Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Well ... it looks like you will be building this structure ... without using the Revell kit parts at all. What a daunting task! But, I know, with time, you will do a magnificent job on it Manfred!! And your source for these superb photos needs to be commended as well ... they are excellent references! I'll be watching! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Hey Pete, thanks for your kind response, but that's not my intention. I do not want to scratch the whole Launch Pad, for heaven's sake, that would be madness. Then I could forget the great LVM Detail Kits, which would be a pity, especially since they were not cheap. So I will use the Revell kit, as well as the main structures of the FSS and RSS, but I'll modify it and try to correct some of the Revell mistakes. And some components I will scratch, e.g. the Access Arms like OAA and OVA ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mknorr Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 I look forward to every post you put up Manfred. Like others have said, there's little point making single sentence comments about your impressive build. You have put me off buying the Revell kit a bit though given its many flaws. It would be nice to have a thumbs up or other rating feature here so that we could give you credit. That way you might not think no one is following your project. I'm sure many are, just not posting anything, speechless no doubt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Thanks Manfred for your honest words, no problem. I do not want to dissuade you from building the Revell kit, and if you build everything OOB it fits everything together. But although on the kit is written 1:144, the content is not all 1:144, and everybody should know in advance. That's why my approach is turning out to an increasingly more difficult balancing act. Edited September 11, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Discoveryov103 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Spaceman: I have been following this post for a while now with great interest. I believe it to be an understatement that your attention to detail and skills are out of this world!!! I too am working on the same launch tower kit and have thought of ways to I prove its accuracy. I have already begun one of my kits and am too far along to make any corrections, so it looks like I will be building my first one out of box and giving to my co-worker. Anyways, I noticed in your drawings on page 58 of this forum in the drawing where you have the stack sitting on the MLP & crawler with the FSS & RSS all together (as if it is on the pad with the RSS covering the shuttle during payload loading ops) I think there is a slight overlook. If you look at the drawing I am referring to, it shows the support post where the RSS rotates on between the MLP and FSS. I have researched in my close up photos I took at STS-134 and studied this area carefully. I found that the support post is flush with the FSS in the north/south direction. (North as if you were looking at it head on) in your drawing it shows it more east than it actually is. Please understand I am not "one of those guys who has a critique for everything". I have seen how hard you have worked on this project like everyone else on here. I have seen where some well respect members on this site have offered you advice, and I feel an opportunity to offer some advice for you. My suggestion would be to keep the support post/hinge for the RSS aligned in the north/south direction and somehow "extend" the RSS to where it would be positioned correctly when rotated toward the shuttle. With respect to the oxygen vent arm, according to my reference ("The Space Transportation Systems Reference" by Christopher Coggon) on page 6-18 it reads "The vent system arm is 24.4 meters (80 feet) long, 2.4 meters (8 feet) high, and 1.5 meters (5 feet) wide. The diameter of the vent hood is 4 meters (13 feet)". I placed a scale ruler next to the model oxygen vent arm and it measured 74.5 feet long, 6.5 feet high, 4.75 feet wide. The diameter of the vent hood is spot on at 13 feet. Anyways, I certainly hope this helps you. As always, I look forward to continuing following your progress here. -Andy- Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 Thanks Andy for your nice response, I fully agree with you, my drawing with the front view of the FSS and RSS is in the same way incorrect as the Revell drawing from the construction manual. The connecting structure between FSS and RSS one should not see in this north south direction. With regard to the dimensions of the model OVA one must note that in the length is missing the swivel bearing of the access arm at the FSS. BTW, unfortunately many dimensions of the Revell kit parts are not exactly 1:144. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) Hi everybody, today now the next step of the fault analysis. As I said and you have seen previously, these rectangular profiles on the PCR walls are just too clumsy and also wrong. Here, on both sidewalls and on the two front strips all thicker profiles are throughout 2.8 mm wide and 2.0 mm high. And all thin profiles are 1.5 mm wide and about 0.7 mm high. And on the back side it looks the same. Okay, still a lot of LVM PE accessories will be installed on the sides of the PCR later, whereby some of the rudeness can be concealed. But in particular on the less built-up back side a filigree detailing would be worthwhile in any case, especially since no major complications would result. With this chunky rectangular profiles on the walls, that just do not like me, the RSS and in particular the central PCR part looks somehow too coarse. :blink: In this context I have reminded again to the building report of a friend in our German forum (Raumcon) and followed his former first steps in the construction of the RSS. And here this picture indicates exactly what I mean. Especially since these profiles in the enclosing PCR frame construction mainly are tubes, now I have gotten to the bottom of the matter and have added the diameters of the corresponding profiles in the already known images of the PCR walls. Here are first of all the side walls and front wall strips. What first stands out, are the two missing slanted 18'' tubes and the top two 10'' tubes in the side strip, which must run the other way round. The profile W27x128 (27''x10'') is an I-Beam, as you can see here. Source: flickr.com (Andrew Scheer) The horizontal struts (presumably I-Beams) directly seated on the wall panels I have estimated from photos to approximately 7'', which would correspond to a width of about 1 mm (1:168). The other dimensions are needed to convert, if one would think about scratch building. Then I have noticed that the height of Revell PCR in accordance with the stack corresponds to about 1:140, the width however, is only about 1:175. And on the back panel, there are those profiles here, being at a comparable level (about 1:140) whose width is about 1:168. Next time I will go into detail of the diameter of the lateral support structures right and left of the PCR, which have also partly larger deviations from reality, which I have not noticed so far. In any case, is already quite clear that the RSS would get a much more pleasant and more realistic look, if one would correct those things. Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 19, 2015 Author Share Posted September 19, 2015 (edited) Hello everybody, almost I had resigned myself to the fact that the place behind the RCS Room would be too closely, still somehow to separate HER, but what I absolutely would not like. And because this has left no rest, I have wasted some brainpower again and puzzled out the following solution for the gap which should actually be feasible in principle. The impetus for this solution I have got by these images of a friend in the Raumcon Forum, I've remembered. He had once made a similar attempt, as can be seen here, but he had installed the lateral elevator shaft flush with the PCR, which is not quite right. And this solution possibility has been always in my mind. The question of whether in fact a separation of the lift shaft from the PCR should be done, which would actually be correct, I will first times let still open. How here again be seen, but this gap is actually present, and at least on the back clearly visible, Source: NASA because between the lateral tubes of the frame construction as well as cable channels run, as can be seen nicely in the picture of STS-1. And then it looks as if the HER is even slightly higher than the elevator shaft. Source: NASA After my previous view, the connection of the staircase made of the LVM parts located in front of elevator shaft in principle should not be hindered by this modification, as far as one can see from the LVM-building instructions. As far as for today. Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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