Space Shuttle Launch Pad 39A with Challenger STS-6 (1:144)

[spaceman]

Hello everybody,

And so it not becomes boring, also on the lateral support structures right and left of the PCR there are similar deviations of the diameter/dimensions of the Revell's profile from reality.

So here's first the south-facing support structure of the RSS, left the real tube diameters and downscaled values (1:168), and right the Revell dimensions.

Particularly striking are the too thin central 18'' and 22'' struts given the huge RSS structure. And why Revell has just replaced the lower 24'' tubes through these I-beams, will also remain a mystery.

And that probably will not look otherwise on the right side, which I'll check next time.

The question remains, how to deal with these thin rods, probably amputate ...

[Mknorr]

As this looks like a relatively simple looking structure, would it be easy to scratch build?

[spaceman]

Hi Manfred,

yep, that's right, so I'll do it.

With respect to the wrong profiles on the PCR walls it looks a bit more difficult, as one can see from this comparison of Revell's profiles with the reality.

Left the real dimensions and downscaled values (1:168), and right the crazy Revell dimensions.

That's why I have probably to scratch build the complete PCR.

Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman

[spaceman]

Hello everybody,

but that is still not enough, during intense viewing of RSS images around the elevator shaft I noticed that Revell has also strongly simplified the shaft.

Best to see is it in this picture of the STS-6. The side wall of the elevator shaft is only at the top of the engine room throughout planar.

Source: NASA

Further down this wall runs from the middle sloopingly forward to the PCR, which can be seen clearly by the changing light/shadow. Maybe it's also angled shortly in front of the wall.

Accordingly, the Revell lift shaft is constructed incorrectly. Therefore, the lower doors sit in the shaft unlike the upper door in the front wall of the machine room probably in these sloping floor walls in front of the local staircase, as I have marked blue in this STS-1 photo.

Source: NASA

This wrong construction of the elevator shaft LVM Studios have taken over in Detail Kit No. 5 and adapted to their stairwell made of PE parts, as can be seen here in the LVM building instructions.

And thus to another Revell error.

In the lower part of the elevator shaft can be seen six inclined floors doors, and even a 7th door at the top in the machine room.

Source: NASA

The Revell lift shaft has there only five floors with associated doors, what LVM has taken over as one can see here in the RSS shell of a friend from the Raumcon Forum by the PE doors and therefore missing apparently a complete floor.

Source: raumfahrer.net (golgi863)

But that's still not the end of the chain of errors, what I'm going to show soon.

Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman

[spaceman]

Hi everybody,

maybe that's not been clear enough with the inclined extension of the front wall below the upper cut-out for the angled strut of the support structure.

Therefore, I show here again a picture of the dismantling of the Pad 39B, where you can better see what I mean, because not so much parts are surrounding.

Source: flickr.com (Andrew Scheer)

In my opinion, one can recognize the difference between the position of the upper fully opened and the bottom slightly opened doors in the inclined elevator shaft wall clearly.

And with the help of this photo I have tried to draw in the lift shaft into the RSS shell as it should look like, which then gives a more realistic picture. The doors I've omitted for simplicity.

Now I hope that possible lacks of clarity and doubts could become eliminated, if not, then let me know please.

Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman

[crowe-t]

Manfred, There are a lot of differences in the Revell kit as seen in these pictures you are posting.

Will you be modifying these Revell parts or scratch building new ones?

I know you want to use the LVM parts which are made for the Revell kit. I personally like the idea of modifying the existing Revell kit to make it more accurate. There are a lot of inaccurate kits that were made years ago that with a little extra work can really look nice.

Mike.

[spaceman]

Thanks Mike,

with the main errors of the RSS I can not live, which must therefore be corrected, such as the PCR, RCS Room, HER as well as the elevator shaft.

This means that I also have to modify some LVM details, but as little as possible.

Edited September 24, 2015 by spaceman

[K2Pete]

Now I hope that possible lacks of clarity and doubts could become eliminated, if not, then let me know please.

Your explanation of the inaccuracies of the Revell kit compared to the actual structure are very clear Manfred.

Danke!

I am already looking forward to watching you rebuild the Revell toy into a wonderful, accurate scale model ... but I do NOT envy you this task! :blink:

Pete

[spaceman]

Thanks Pete for your comforting words.

You know that it never will become an accurate scale model, it always will remain a compromise, but a better compromise than by Revell, I still hope.

[spaceman]

Hello everybody,

as if I had known it, it becomes more trickier, now I was almost falling for an error of LVM Studios, because this RSS image of a friend has confused me.

And in this regard I have to correct my post (09/23/15) specifically to the stairwell in front of the elevator shaft, with regard to the number of floors in the Revell kit or LVM Kit, which is why I want to clarify again.

Fact is namely that in the Revell kit no floor is missing, but there is one too much. This was shown by a friend in our German Raumcon forum some time ago (2011) with this photomontage.

Source: raumfahrer.net (Halbtoter)

As one can see, in the lower part the stairwell above the RSS Main Floor there are four floors and in the upper part three, a total of seven floors. Revell (left) has in both parts four floors, a total of eight, and thus one floor too much.

As you can also see, all the Revell floors have the same height, while in reality the upper three floors are each slightly higher than the bottom four.

And now to this stairwell in the LVM Detail Kit No. 5, and a surprising finding. After I had looked at the corresponding PE-parts, I thought so at first still that I had miscounted me, but it was not like that.

To my amazement the stairwell of LVM has only six uniformly high levels above the RSS Main Floor, but that is now clearly one floor too little! Why LVM has solved it in this way and not correctly is not comprehensible as the fact that there are only five doors in the elevator shaft.

Source: LVM Studios

As you can see it, unfortunately, not only Revell had problems with his kit. Now the only question is, whether one is content with this fact and build the LVM kit OOB, or how to deal with it. The Launch Pad no longer becomes true to original.

But since I will rebuild the elevator shaft anyway, maybe I think about a cleverer solution of the stairwell, especially since I already have to adapt the LVM tier floors to the inclined wall.

Time will tell ...

Edited October 2, 2015 by spaceman

[spaceman]

Hi everybody,

once again, the staircase in front of the elevator shaft, which LVM has constructed incorrectly, actually even falser than Revell, if you look at it closely, what I want to clarify here again.

The Revell stairwell has in the lower and upper part (above the RSS main floor), in each case four floors, what is one too many in the upper part because there are only three floors there.

The LVM stairwell, however, is correct in the upper part with three floors, but wrong in the lower part with only three floors.

The correct solution would be a superimposed arrangement with the Revell solution in the lower part and the LVM solution in the upper part, because then the stairwell would actuallyhave seven floors in the correct arrangement.

The question remains, how to solve the problem ...

Therefore, one should actually require a rework by LVM, in view of the money, what the kits have cost.

Then It would have been better if they had left it at the reproduction of the Revell stairwell, in which then at least the lower part would have been correct.

Edited October 18, 2015 by spaceman

[Mknorr]

Manfred, you are definitely up against it. Those LVM parts are very expensive and I agree with you completely they need to fix this. At the very least you should get your money back as the item is not suitable.

[spaceman]

Hi Manfred,

yep, I also think so, that I'll have to complain LVM about this error.

Edited October 4, 2015 by spaceman

[spaceman]

Hi everybody,

after further research also the local conditions in the gap behind the RCS Room have further clarified.

The HER has the following dimensions, length (north-south) 36' (10,97 m), width 28' (8,53 m), height 14' (4,27 m) and is thus slightly higher than in my previous basic sketch, which looks something like this.

Here is another view of the gap between the RCS Room and HER. On it one see that there is still an anteroom located in front of the HER, which is slightly lower and shorter and fills about half of the intermediate space. Out of it at the top a cable duct leads into the RCS Room.

Source: NASA

This drawing should illustrate this something.

Source: capcomespace.com

The interesting question for me was now again, whether this at the time of STS-6 already looked like that, because some rooms on the RSS have been installed only later, such as on the west and south sides of the RSS Main Floor behind the PCR.

Therefore I was glad that I have found after a long search this old black and white photo here from 11/06/1980, which proves that it at the time actually already gave this anteroom.

Source: NASA

And here still for comparing the present state from a different point of view.

Source: NASA

In order nothing stands in the way for an appropriate reconstruction of the RSS.

[spaceman]

Hello everybody,

after the front and side view I have now also drawn a plan view, which should help me especially with the planned modification of the RSS-rooms, and there was again a little surprise.

For a rough orientation this Streetview image of the Pad 39A was very helpful.

Source: google.de

And this here is firstly the unchanged Revell arrangement where I intend to change both the PCR and the elevator shaft and HER and thus adapt more to the reality.

And after drawing in the truck rails arc, I noticed immediately that the rear truck (position 1) would stand next to the truck rails, what obviously can not be, since I also still intend to plan a diorama. All other do not need to bother and can certainly let it be like that.

To put now the truck from position 1 to 2 on the truck rails, you could now easily put the outer support frame at a slight angle under the support structure, what would then surely look modestly because of the supernatant.

Since I was first surprised, I checked the disassembly plans, and thereafter the outer support frame (line 7) is actually slightly inclined backwards, which I had not observed so far.

Source: NASA

Here are the two supporting frame components with dimensions, part 45 is the front frame, the rear is part 46, both of which have the same structure, which is not correct.

As one can see, the difference is 4' (1.22 m), which corresponds about 7 mm (1:168).

Strictly speaking one would intervene in the supporting structure and extend the outer raster of the front frame (part 45) what would be absolutely feasible.

But since these two parts would have to be reworked anyway and are already on the to-do list,

which could then be done the same in one go.

[spaceman]

Hello everybody,

thanks to my friend James MacLaren from the NASASpaceFlight Forum who was during the construction on Pad 39B and knows both pads very well, I have now a little more clarity on what profiles were used for the already discussed horizontal and vertical lattice structures on the PCR walls, which I have highlighted in this drawing.

Source: capcomespace.com

These girts (green) in the horizontal lattice structure directly on the walls are apparently W12 beams (Wide Flange Beams), and the vertical lattice structure between them is constructed using W6 beams (red). And on this lattice structures is located the RSS frame structure that envelops all, as well as this rhomb from the Ø 18'' pipes.

Source: NASA

In this view, the arrangement of the profiles is even clearer to see.

Source: NASA

Next, I will deal again closer with the elevator shaft and the HER.

Edited October 15, 2015 by spaceman

[spaceman]

Hi guys,

as you can see in the photos of of the dismantled RSS on Pad 39B everything much clearer, here is a last clarification to the stairwell next to the lift shaft.

Source: flickr.com (Andrew Scheer)

As you can quite clearly see here, the stairwell above the RSS Main Floor, actually has seven floors, and not six as with LVM. But they are not arranged uniformly distributed over the total height of the frame structure.

Rather, the bottom three floors have approximately the same height, and also the top three, whereupon whose height is slightly larger. The 4th floor is slightly lower than the upper three and goes out about the central transverse brace of the frame structure, like the 7th floor something goes over the upper transverse brace addition.

Whether this finding, however, would now convince LVM thereof, to modify their stairwell accordingly, remains pure speculation, it would be welcomed in any case.

[spaceman]

Hello everybody,

before we speculate here any longer, I have very interesting pictures of my friend Michael (mk310149), who has built David Maier's Launch Pad (1:144) from paper. And so you can a lot more recognize than on the previous light and shadow pictures, even though some details are indicated in a conventional manner only by clever textures.

And as you can see easily, the elevator shaft has actually this inclined wall running up to the PCR.

Source: papermodelers.com (mk310149)

However, this wall is no more detailed behind the stairwell, which is why the doors are missing,

Source: papermodelers.com (mk310149)

or one has to imagine it behind the pipes.

Source: papermodelers.com (mk310149)

As you can also see, the stairwell is interrupted only in the top three floors and has stairs, the lower four floors do not, but are only hinted at. But the stairwell has seven floors, and the different frame-division also corresponds to the original, so at least the elevator shaft problem is likely to be clarified.

And now I also have got the confirming by my friend James (NSF-Forum) that the elevator shaft "lobby" was triangular and the Revell model is totally wrong in this regard, which was to be expected.

[spaceman]

Hi all together,

now I have actually found in Capcomespace a few great drawings, finally to obtain a clear overview of the PCR and the elevator shaft with the inclined wall, which provide the final proof.

As you can see it, one comes out of the elevator shaft into this triangular "lobby" and then passes through a doorway, which is not a door but an open entrance, directly into the PCR, which is a Clean Room. And in this wall I have indicated one of the doors, which should give it there.

Source: capcomespace.net

I think that these are emergency exit doors, which are closed normally, but through which you can reach via the stairwell down when the lift should have a disaster. For what should the staircase otherwise be good?

And in this drawing can be clearly seen also the platforms in front of the elevator shaft with the doors, where upon the platforms seem to be a bit too large, possibly from an early concept phase of the Pad history.

Source: capcomespace.net

I hope that's about it on the subject elevator shaft.

[crowe-t]

Manfred, That's a lot of research you've been doing.

Have you come up with any solutions to fix these inaccuracies?

Mike.

[spaceman]

Hello Mike,

Holy cow! There are more inaccuracies than I would have imagined at the beginning, that's the problem.

The most serious errors and inaccuracies I will try to correct. So I'm planning a complete rebuild of the PCR with the true profiles, as well as a new elevator shaft and HER, and also a rebuild of the RSS main framing.

And I'm thinking even if I let photo-etch a new and correct PE part of the staiwell in front of the elevator shaft.

That's a lot of stuff, but I'll try by best.

Edited October 18, 2015 by spaceman

[crackerjazz]

Whenever I read your posts I feel like being overwhelmed by the expanse of your project. You're the type who makes things happen, though, and I believe in you. I'm really looking forward to what you come up with.

[spaceman]

Thanks Joseph for your encouraging words,

but the Revell kit represents due to the many inaccuracies really an even greater challenge than I first thought.

But the case is not hopeless, so keep your fingers crossed!

[spaceman]

Hi everybody,

and therefore the modified lift shaft should later once look something like this, of course, with six doors in the inclined wall.

And on top of the RCS Room Floor there must then be also a Cut between the elevator shaft, the RCS Room and HER, what I'm going to sketch sometime soon.

[spaceman]

Hello friends,

today I will continue with my FSS investigation of the Revell Kit. This has therefore lasted a little bit longer, because for the necessary dimensions of the Tower structural elements in addition to the Pad 39B Dismantling plans I had also to rummage in the old LUT plans.

But for that I now have a good overview, I want to present now.

For the FSS frame construction Standard steel beams were used, their configuration can be found in the AISC standards (American Institute of Steel Construction). These include among others a wide range of H-, I- and T-beams, etc., whose designations first getting used to, especially since in the US there is no metric system, but all dimensions are in feet and inches, and you have to convert everything. But this later more with concrete examples.

First, again looking back on some already discussed scale facts.

The lateral parts of the Revell Tower are 447 mm long, which corresponds with a tower height at Level 295 of 75.3 m and a scale of 1:168, what is the reference standard for my launch pad.

While the lateral parts in Revell's kit new edition now all have the same structure construction, in the old kits there were on the west side between Level 175 and Level 215 these two cross beams (red), apparently to install the Emergency Egress Sytems (EES), but which does not exist and, consequently, so are not required.

And so now to some details of the FSS-frame structure, whose construction over the entire height from Level 75 to Level 295 is almost identical in the Revell kit, which is not true.

The changes from floor to floor are indeed barely noticeable, but still present.

Both the lateral spars (welded square tubes) as well as the outer frame supports decrease upwardly both in cross section as well as in wall thickness.

Source: Troy McClellan

The lateral spars have shortly above Level 240 a transition from square tubes (Box Columns) to H-beams (Wide Flange), and are changing from H-beams (W14x193) to I-beams (W14x61).

Source: Troy McClellan

So much for today, next time I'll show then the deviations of the Revell's profiles of the frame structure in detail, what is something special then.