Rigid Rotorhead Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) Hello All, My latest article is on the beloved H-46 Sea Knight, or "Phrog" as it is also known. In order to cover all variants, I am seeking information on the disused CH-46B designation. From what little I have found on the topic, it appears to have been the designation for a proposed Air Force variant that was canceled very early on. The few sources I have found on it include: Jane's All the World's Aircraft (1962-63); the Flight Global Archives; a website entry on GlobalSecurity.org; and a website entry on Helis.com. References in those places are very brief. Further complicating things, another source (Aviastar.org) refers to it as the UH-46B instead. Do any of you out there have any information - credible or speculative - on this lost Sea Knight variant? If so, I'd really appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks in advance! Edited April 10, 2012 by Rigid Rotorhead Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Ray, It sounds like it was a paper project and never got off the ground before it was cancelled. Seems that the only photo/s might be the N6679D in mid 62. Might also have to look for XH-49A as the designation before 62. Please share any info you might happen to find. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatguy96 Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 DoD's "Model Designation of Military Aircraft," published in 1963, has the following to say about the XCH-46B, which is listed as being for the USAF: "A twin-turbine powered, tandem rotor passenger/cargo helicopter capable of operating from land or water during all weather conditions. Operational mission is to provide rapid-direct-to-the-scene transportation for logistic support, drone recovery and airlift operations. Three crew. Formerly designated HX/H-2." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FM-Whip Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 DoD's "Model Designation of Military Aircraft," published in 1963, has the following to say about the XCH-46B, which is listed as being for the USAF: "A twin-turbine powered, tandem rotor passenger/cargo helicopter capable of operating from land or water during all weather conditions. Operational mission is to provide rapid-direct-to-the-scene transportation for logistic support, drone recovery and airlift operations. Three crew. Formerly designated HX/H-2." More DOD designation weirdness - the Army's 3 V-107s were designated as "YHC-1A". But then the CH-47 was originally the "HC-1B". I wonder if that drove what would have been a CH-46B to originally be an H-2. This kind of stuff brings up all sorts of possibilities for "what-ifs" - if for example, both the Army and the USAF had flown Vertol 107 models of one kind or another - we would then have had the V-107 flown by the Navy, Marines, USAF, and Army. John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatguy96 Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) More DOD designation weirdness - the Army's 3 V-107s were designated as "YHC-1A". But then the CH-47 was originally the "HC-1B". I wonder if that drove what would have been a CH-46B to originally be an H-2. This kind of stuff brings up all sorts of possibilities for "what-ifs" - if for example, both the Army and the USAF had flown Vertol 107 models of one kind or another - we would then have had the V-107 flown by the Navy, Marines, USAF, and Army. John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Unlikely, the US Army was using a completely independent system for a brief period for the introduction of the unified system in 1962. HC-1 was an Army designation. HX-2/H-2 was a USAF designation. The USAF's HX-1/H-1 was redesignated as the XH-48A in 1962, which in turn was further redesignated UH-1F. A similar set of weirdness happened with the initial designation of the UH-1, which had been XH-40A until the US Army instituted its own system, was then redesignated as HU-1A, and was in turn redesignated again as UH-1A in 1962. Edited April 10, 2012 by thatguy96 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FM-Whip Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Unlikely, the US Army was using a completely independent system for a brief period for the introduction of the unified system in 1962. HC-1 was an Army designation. HX-2/H-2 was a USAF designation. The USAF's HX-1/H-1 was redesignated as the XH-48A in 1962, which in turn was further redesignated UH-1F. A similar set of weirdness happened with the initial designation of the UH-1, which had been XH-40A until the US Army instituted its own system, was then redesignated as HU-1A, and was in turn redesignated again as UH-1A in 1962. I'd be interested in hearing about this transitional Army designation system prior to 1962. Is it documented anywhere? John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatguy96 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure where. The TRADOC history of US Army Aviation from 1950 to 1962, published in 1991, makes little mention of it, and doesn't universally use the designations, even when historically appropriate (one chapter, dealing with UH-1 development, for instance, does not mention the HU-1A designation at all). I believe the system was in use starting in 1956 or 1957 as Army Aviation really got going. Like other designation systems, its use was ended in 1962 with the introduction of the universal system. Its an aircraft designation system that the Army seems to have forgotten about and as a result not many people are readily aware of it. If they know anything from it, they usually know the HU-1 designation, which led to "Huey," even if they don't know that it was part of this independent system. The Army's system was sort of a hodgepodge between the systems utilized by the Army Air Corps/Army Air Forces during World War II, the modified version of this system initially adopted by the USAF, and the US Navy's system. Aircraft were designated by first assigning a type letter code (A for fixed wing aircraft, H for helicopter, etc), then a modifier of some sort (C for cargo, O for observation, U for utility, etc), followed by an arbitrary number, N+1, for each type plus modifier. The Mohawk was initially designated AO-1, the Caribou AC-1, and the the Iroquois HU-1. Suffixes are less clear. In some cases, the two letter suffix clearly indicated manufacturer, such as the YHO-6HU Cayuse. In others, the first letter was an arbitrary letter (A,B,C,etc) indicating subvariants, followed by a letter that might have indicated manufacturer, such a YAO-1AF/YAO-1BF/YAO-1CF Mohawks. If anyone has a link to someone who's put all the Army designations up online I'd love to bookmark it. Couldn't find anything quickly when searching. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I've always thought a Phrog in USAF search & rescue markings as an HH-2D would look cool. Glossy aircraft grey with a big yellow band and MAC markings. :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rigid Rotorhead Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 DoD's "Model Designation of Military Aircraft," published in 1963, has the following to say about the XCH-46B, which is listed as being for the USAF: "A twin-turbine powered, tandem rotor passenger/cargo helicopter capable of operating from land or water during all weather conditions. Operational mission is to provide rapid-direct-to-the-scene transportation for logistic support, drone recovery and airlift operations. Three crew. Formerly designated HX/H-2." A big thanks to all of you for your responses. Indeed, it appears that info on the Air Force version is extremely rare and not likely to surface, although I'd love to find a photo of the Model 107 that was supposedly painted in a proposed SAR scheme as part of the marketing process. If anyone happens to find any additional info, please let me (all of us, in fact) know. Cheers, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phrogger Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I found this picture today of N6679D painted up in USAF markings - with blatant Boeing Vertol logo added for advertising effect, I'm sure. Helis info on CH-46B Not sure if this is a recent addition, or if it's been hiding there all along. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thatguy96 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Interesting to see an XH-49A designation in there. Looks like what happened to the UH-1F happened to the XCH-46B. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phrogger Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) comment withdrawn Edited June 15, 2012 by Phrogger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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