C-109 Tanker

[Captoveur]

In a desire to model the road less traveled, in a theater commonly neglected.. And an airplane my grandfather was a flight engineer on.. I have decided to build a C-109.

I realize probably nobody has heard of this thing. It was a B-24 that was modified with rubber bladders in the bomb bay that were filled with AvGas to supply airfields in China, flying over The Hump from India. Apparently, they saw some service in all theaters, though that has not helped my googling for pictures.

Anyway, I have acquired a Revell B-24D and I think I have a reasonable handle on things. I have to cover the forward windows, smooth out and reshape the nose, and do a few other things. However, I have found a grand total of 2 pictures of these things on the internet, I have a further 3 grainy, out of focus pictures from the war that don't show much of anything useful. and a few questions.

All my sources indicate all guns were removed from these. I lack a shot of the back end, so my biggest question is what happened with the tail gun position? Was the glass retained, or was the whole place covered over?

Were the waist gun windows still present?

I don't really need anything on Decals. There doesn't appear to be any nose art, or discernable squadron markings. Just a tail number and the early war round insignia. The Fuselage insignia appeared rather large, does anyone know of a decal sheet with the early markings for a B-24 or something similarly sized?

Were the bomb-bay doors retained? Or were panels fitted and mechanisms removed to save weight?

[Dakota Roo]

So...Since the C-109 was the dedicated fuel lift, it should not be externally all that different from the C-87 Liberator Express:

[Phil marchese]

The C-109 modification program was based on Ford manufactured B-24J & L components. I did A recent post on the subject which you can find by search tool.

The a/c were assembled by Ford and Douglas as bombers and sent to commerical modifiers in Birmingham and possibly by NorthWest Airlines St Paul. The lower Ford nose glazing remained. The upper nose was faired over in metal. See separate "radio button" below index at www.b24bestweb.com. The CBI Wing used nose markings and some examples have nicknames.

[Robertson]

So...Since the C-109 was the dedicated fuel lift, it should not be externally all that different from the C-87 Liberator Express:

The C-109 was very different in appearance to the C-87 (especially regarding the elongated tail fairing seen at the tail of the above C-87).

It had a seemingly longer but blunter nose, following more the outlines of a turreted J-nose unlike the C-87, which resembled a slightly "bluntened" B-24D nose shape.

The C-109 tail fairing had roughly the volume of a tail turret, which for volume is similar to many C-87 tail fairings, but probably smoother in appearance with a more evenly rounded top, and combined with vertical half-tubular sides for the bottom two-thirds: Guessing from slanted photos, the C-109 tail fairing seems to look like half of a shortish grain silo...

The tail fairing is vaguely depicted in profile in the small drawing here, agreeing very well with pictures to suggest a vertical "silo" surface with a rounded top:

http://www.miarecoveries.org/images/C-109SquadronBook550.jpg

Nice shot of the nose:

http://www.miarecoveries.org/images/C-109SquadronBook.jpg

Photos are indeed rare...

Robertson

Edited April 11, 2012 by Robertson

[B24RESEARCHER]

Captoveur, all is not lost!!

While it is true that the "production" C-109s were J and L-FOs and as such were quite different in front appearance from the C-87, the PROTOTYPE was a Ford B-24E-20-FO (Ford equivalent to the D) sn 42-7221. This aircraft was subsequently lost on August 28, 1944, near Tezpur, India

It just so happens that this aircraft and the C-109 in general will be covered in depth in Volume II of "Consolidated Mess", so I'm not yet prepared to release everything I have on it to the general public. However, I am willing to send you the photos showing the tail, the nose (a great night shot with the nose interior all lit up showing the nose tank and plumbing), the side and some shots of the inside of the nose before the installation of that tank. I also have quite a number of shots of standard "production" C-109s should you choose to attack that Bridge Too Far with the Monogram D. Either way you will have a unique model to show with pride. Doing the prototype would, I believe, give you a more interesting model since the front tank is visible through the greenhouse. Also, it is OD/NG so no NMF hassles!

If you are indeed going to do the "production" C-109, I think I would get the Koster B-24H conversion and start from there. Koster does a great job of capturing the Ford "slip-on" nose and would be a much easier conversion to a J or L than starting from the D-nose.

I need for you to contact me offline at my email (see below) if you would like these pics.

In return, I ask for the following:

Promise not to share these photos with ANYONE. This is not the famous "modeler's promise" where you only share them

with a "couple of people".

Post and/or share photos of the final product and, if possible, the modification process.

Pledge undying fealty and devotion to me as "God of Aviation Research". wink wink nudge nudge

I have dozens of pages of documents on the C-109 program, problems, solutions, etc. I may post some of these in synopsis form with - of course! - specific reference to the document. Personal preference, of course, but my belief is "no source, no fact." A website of great interest that also does a superior job of members noting the source of their information is Secretproject.co.uk. Take a look and compare and be impressed!

Good luck with this project. Sounds like it could be very cool.

His Serene Highness Alan Griffith (actually, I haven't had a really good high since college....)

(ag122651@hotmail.com)

[Phil marchese]

The H-FO nose has little in common with the C-109 nose. The upper nose is an entirely different fabrication forward sta 0.0 and relative to the H series the lower nose on these late J series differs significantly and again the L which differs again. Fact.

The important visual feature not mentioned is the retention of the full size plex waist hatch inserts. See ref provided earlier.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Phil marchese

[B24RESEARCHER]

Well....I believe you've missed the point.

In my humble opinion, making the C-109 nose would be easier as a modeling project if one started with the H nose than the D. Both will require some Milliput (or A&B, etc.) and a bunch of carving and sanding, but I believe would be a much easier project starting from the H than the D.

Specific facts with regard to the production C-109:

It has the Ford "shelf" (as does the H) but with the turret removed and a rounded metal nose replacement,

The "S" is present (as on the H), although part will need to be sanded away as it was what I've called in my book the "chopped S", missing the bottom curves and ending at the back of the bombardier's perspex structure and having the wraparound sheet metal replacing the bottom of the "S",

The low pitot as featured on the later Hs and onward (not sure about the Koster modification kit on this one), and

The outward-opening nose gear doors found on all Ford B-24s from the H onward.

There are also the obvious differences in the overall structure of the bombardier's perspex, the larger navigator's observation window (one of two styles and I'd probably go for the non-"bay window" style of the pre-Block 15 Ls) and the late style side canopy "blown" window. Still, a much easier overall modification as a model than starting from the D nose.

For the modeler, my book also has original manual drawings of the perspex assembly and close-up photos of the "broker S" and sheet metal wrap of the bombardier perspex in question. I could probably be talked into sharing these with you offline.

I shall try to post some actual photos in a bit to make all this clear. First I need to go back to the Research Forum and re-read how to post photos here.

Alan Griffith

Royal Order of the Millputians

[Phil marchese]

No the point fitting an H nose as a proxey for an L was not at all lost. Its just not good advice in my opinion. Nor is construction using putty for structure. The turret mount ring can be adjusted with a simple strip of plastic to form a lip for the lowest wrap of sheet styrene after tracing the curvature on paper or CAD.

Backing a strip to that top inner edge allows adding the next wrap panel. And so on. The top panel can use a pie slice method with allowance to shape into smooth curved panel. Plastic not putty except for final buffing is the rule of this type modeling.

[B24RESEARCHER]

Okay, hopefully the photos will magically appear when I do this.

This is B-24D-15-CO 5AF 90BG 321BS 42-24070 "Miss Deed"

This is B-24H-20-FO 8AF 44BG 506BS G6- -D 42-95016 "Down De Hatch"

C-109 "Murphy's Mother In Law", possibly B-24L-1-FO 44-49057, believed to have been taken in India

A great photo showing both the bomb bay doors still on the aircraft and the bottom of the bay tanks. I have shots of the bay tanks themselves outside the aircraft prior to modification.

I'll just leave it up to the readers to determine which is the easier, more direct means of achieving his goal. I still think some form of two-part epoxy - perhaps combined with a center former of plastic for shape - is the way to go. I'll just go polish my Region IV IPMS Judge's Grand Award trophy and let Captoveur decide for himself.

And Captoveur, when I said I'd be glad to share the perspex drawings, etc. with "you" I meant YOU for your project.

Alan Griffith with his fingers crossed on the pics.

Edited April 11, 2012 by B24RESEARCHER

[B24RESEARCHER]

Ignore this. I figured out what I did wrong. See above!

Alan Griffith

Edited April 11, 2012 by B24RESEARCHER

[Phil marchese]

The navigator with his drift site and astrodome have been relocated aft the flight deck. This location gets more and more common in B-24 also as. War progressed.

The dis-similarities in the angles and station locations in the lower nose of the H and the L based C-109 are in evidence.

The lozenge nose marking with RCN was common in CBI ATC Wing and carried over to post war MAC...Think AMC may. Still use it. Sometimes "last three" but this period usually 4 digitts.

The square nav compartment window is factory at. This point. The H by comparison is bedazzled in ETO. Modification not restricted to series or manufacturer.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Phil marchese

[Captoveur]

After seeing what has been posted here this looks like it may be a bit more tricky than I anticipated.

I will see about finding a Koster nose and an H/J kit.

Also, when I get home I will send an email about those pictures. Also, I gladly promise in front of the entire internet not to show them.

[B24RESEARCHER]

Captoveur,

Good show! I'm sure nearly everyone will be excited to see your final masterpiece.

I'm leaving for five weeks at the National Archives in about ten days, so if you don't get me soon it may have to wait until early June. If you have an email address I can go ahead and forward what I have that will be of value for the XC-109 prototype if that is what you choose to build.

I look forward to being of assistance. And thank you for understanding my desire for a bit of secrecy with those photos.

Alan Griffith

Aviation Guru, currently levitating with joy