Tony Stark Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 As the worlds sexiest billionaire I could have told you that. Uh huh. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Uh huh. LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vince14 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Uh huh. LOL Vince Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Well, as I said in my post I don't know whether the claims are true or not, just that there are claims. For the record I don't believe the 1982 & 1983 claims but the one in 1981 is, in my opinion, the one most likely to be true. Beforehand the IDF/AF had used similar tactics to ambush and claim as shot down a Syrian MiG-25 on 13/02/81. The story of this one is that the IDF/AF was undertaking a similar ambush. The first MiG-25 was engaged and subsequently shot down by the F-15 as per the February incident, but then a second MiG-25 managed to shoot down the F-15 - presumably whilst the F-15 pilot was busy dealing with the first MiG, and was unaware there was a second aircraft in the vicinity. There was no 'dogfight' or 'tangling', the sources state that the F-15 was shot down from 20kms away with two R-40's. Whether this actually happened or not I can't say, as neither side admits to their own losses, all I'm saying is that there are unconfirmed claims of F-15s being shot down in air-to-air combat. But even if it is true, is that such a bad thing (well, except for the pilot involved)? Does it really matter if the F-15 was once beaten in air-to-air combat by the opposition? Since WWII there's been this propaganda-based desire on all sides of a conflict to claim that their aircraft losses in combat were due to AAA/SAMs, rather than by a fighter of the opposition. This is because the public/political/military perception of getting downed by ground fire is that it's just 'bad luck', rather than the negative perception of having your finest pilots and aircraft beaten by the opposition's finest. It's understandable in the 'Media Age', but it doesn't help those of us who are trying to sort out fact from fiction. For a long time it was claimed that the F-86 Sabre had a kill to loss ratio of 10:1 over the MiG-15 in Korea - 792 kills for the loss of only 78 Sabres. Indeed, you'll still find this to be 'common knowledge' amongst aviation enthusiasts and even now still finds its way into print. This was due not only to the 'normal' overclaiming by fighter pilots the world over, but also by an unspoken political desire from within the US military to 'prove' that they were better than their Communist opposition. The 'other side' were no better - they claimed 647 Sabres shot down in Korea. Since we're now able to examine the files of both sides, we now know that the actual kill to loss ratio of the F-86 in Korea was more like 1.8:1. Vince Now I tend to agree with you, but I also know how the other guys like to make claims. As for the F86/MIG15 kill ratios; I'd take a 1:8 anyday of the week! But that was not so much the two aircraft, but the pilots involved. Had the North Vietnamese had some seriously good pilots (they did have a few), their kill ratios might have been far better. On the other hand if the U.S. aircraft been properly equiped (GUNS); their kill ratios might have been much better. There will always be lucky odd ball shots made in every conflict (my favorite was the Skyraider over NVN gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vince14 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Now I tend to agree with you, but I also know how the other guys like to make claims. As for the F86/MIG15 kill ratios; I'd take a 1:8 anyday of the week! But that was not so much the two aircraft, but the pilots involved. Had the North Vietnamese had some seriously good pilots (they did have a few), their kill ratios might have been far better. On the other hand if the U.S. aircraft been properly equiped (GUNS); their kill ratios might have been much better. There will always be lucky odd ball shots made in every conflict (my favorite was the Skyraider over NVN gary It's 1.8:1, not 8:1 i.e. there were just under 2 MiG's shot down for every Sabre. Vince Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Yes, is true. Excepting for air refueling by Americans. And excepting for Surveillance and Reconnaissance by Americans. And excepting for initial strikes by Americans cruise missiles. And excepting for initial strikes by Americans fighter airplanes for first couple weeks to destroy Anti-Air Defenses of Libya. And excepting for B-2 Stealth Bomber strikes by Americans to destroy runways and command headquarters for Libyan defenses. But yes, NATO do alright in Libyan No-Fly Zone without American help, is true. "All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?" Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 It's 1.8:1, not 8:1 i.e. there were just under 2 MiG's shot down for every Sabre. Vince chalk it up to old eyeballs gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ST21 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) Why? Assuming this actually happened, do you know what the rules of engagement where? What weapons were allowed? What the training goals where of this event? Starting positions of the two formations? Did either side have prohibitions on using their electronic warfare / weapons / radar modes to their full capability, etc, etc? If not, a statement like this is meaningless and just sounds like a typical fanboy rant. I seem to remember reading multiple posts on this forum from real fighter pilots trying to patiently explain that statements like that are completely worthless without knowing much, much more information, most of which is typically never made public. But if it helps the fanboys out there feel better about themselves / their country / favorite aircraft / or whatever: Dude - that is so kewl. The Typhoon pwnd those POS Eagles! Wow, calm down. Why are you being so defensive ? It seems that many Americans cant stand the idea that a non-American aircraft may sometimes performs better than an American one. I have noticed that behavior on several forums. They see it as somekind of "affront" and immediately bash and deride the "foreign" plane or try to downplay the event. Typical. Btw, i am not a Typhoon "fanboy" and i dont think the F-15 is a POS. Far from it. It is still a very capable fighter but lets face it, it is not the best anymore since the mid-2000s when the F-22, Typhoon and Rafale entered service. The Typhoon is a generation above the Eagle and is widely regarded as a superb air superiority fighter so frankly it shouldnt be so surprising that they performed very well against F-15s... Edited April 30, 2012 by ST21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vince14 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Ah, gotta love Archer! Vince Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 My nation's death bunny is better than your nation's death bunny. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Stark Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Frisky Dingo. Well played. Well played indeed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Johnopfor Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 My nation's death bunny is better than your nation's death bunny. Left out the killer pancakes..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Wow, calm down. Why are you being so defensive ? It seems that many Americans cant stand the idea that a non-American aircraft may sometimes performs better than an American one. I have noticed that behavior on several forums. They see it as somekind of "affront" and immediately bash and deride the "foreign" plane or try to downplay the event. Typical. Btw, i am not a Typhoon "fanboy" and i dont think the F-15 is a POS. Far from it. It is still a very capable fighter but lets face it, it is not the best anymore since the mid-2000s when the F-22, Typhoon and Rafale entered service. The Typhoon is a generation above the Eagle and is widely regarded as a superb air superiority fighter so frankly it shouldnt be so surprising that they performed very well against F-15s... Sorry to get you worked up. I try to tailor my message to the intended recipient so I composed my post accordingly. I certainly didn't take that "2 Typhoons shot down 7 Eagles" claim as an assault on the good old Red, White and Blue. As I tried to explain and apparently you didn't or couldn't understand, there are dozens of factors that need to be understood before one can make a statement like that. So unless you are in a position to provide all of the background details, that claim is meaningless. I'm not making this up, this issue has been addressed multiple times on similar threads by actual fighter pilots (including both F-15 and F-22 pilots). So unless you know better than those guys..... Even your statement that the Typhoon is a generation beyond an Eagle shows a basic misunderstanding of the subject. By what metric do you claim that the Tiffy is superior to the F-15? There are many to choose from. Overall dogfighting performance? Supercruise? Range? In many of these I'm sure the Tiffy is much superior to the F-15. I would expect it would be, given that it was designed decades after the F-15. However, there are many other factors that come into play. For example, the majority of active duty USAF Eagles are fitted with a very advanced AESA radar that is thought to be one of the better units currently in service and in theory is probably superior to the older, mechanically-scanned radar used by the Typhoon (if you want to make a claim that the current Typhoon radar is cutting edge, why are the Brits pushing so hard to field an AESA radar for this aircraft?). So in theory, with a superior radar, could you at least entertain the possibility that an F-15 just might be superior to a Typhoon under certain BVR scenarios? Or it that just completely unthinkable? If you can't even consider such a possability, maybe you are the one with nationalistic bias? Again, this has zero to do with America uber alles. Despite your snarky claim that this is "typical" of Americans, I was only trying to demonstrate that simplistic statements like that original post do nothing but demonstrate the poster's lack of knowledge on the subject. If some 'mericun redneck made a similar post to the effect that 2 F-15's shot down 7 Typhoons, my response would have been the same. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 A NSFW song about how certain aircraft have certain desirable elements: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bigasshammm Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 How many "confirmed kills" does Luke Skywalker have, 2, 3 at the most? If it wasnt for Biggs he would be dead! Some Jedi he was! By the way the Death Star doesn't count. Well actually it was destroyed in air to air combat so I guess it does count. There's no air in space! I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's either 1 or 2 as a gunner on the Millenium Falcon, 1 or 2 during the Death Star attack, and the Death Star itself (if we're counting that). Kills scored during the three pre-quals don't count, as they all sucked. Vince So would Luke have gotten those kills as a seed inside his pappy? Would a droid count as a kill? Kind of like shooting a drone no? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Wow, calm down. Why are you being so defensive ? It seems that many Americans cant stand the idea that a non-American aircraft may sometimes performs better than an American one. I have noticed that behavior on several forums. They see it as somekind of "affront" and immediately bash and deride the "foreign" plane or try to downplay the event. Typical. Btw, i am not a Typhoon "fanboy" and i dont think the F-15 is a POS. Far from it. It is still a very capable fighter but lets face it, it is not the best anymore since the mid-2000s when the F-22, Typhoon and Rafale entered service. The Typhoon is a generation above the Eagle and is widely regarded as a superb air superiority fighter so frankly it shouldnt be so surprising that they performed very well against F-15s... the F22 yes, the other two. Fat chance gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ST21 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) I certainly didn't take that "2 Typhoons shot down 7 Eagles" claim as an assault on the good old Red, White and Blue. As I tried to explain and apparently you didn't or couldn't understand, there are dozens of factors that need to be understood before one can make a statement like that. So unless you are in a position to provide all of the background details, that claim is meaningless. I'm not making this up, this issue has been addressed multiple times on similar threads by actual fighter pilots (including both F-15 and F-22 pilots). So unless you know better than those guys..... I dont know all the details about the engagement for the simple reason they werent unveiled. All i know is that this engagement happened. The news about it was in fact first posted on the Eurofighter official blog so it looks pretty legit to me... http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/01/eurofighter-boasts-usaf-f-15-k.html Even your statement that the Typhoon is a generation beyond an Eagle shows a basic misunderstanding of the subject. By what metric do you claim that the Tiffy is superior to the F-15? There are many to choose from. Overall dogfighting performance? Supercruise? Range? In many of these I'm sure the Tiffy is much superior to the F-15. I would expect it would be, given that it was designed decades after the F-15. However, there are many other factors that come into play. For example, the majority of active duty USAF Eagles are fitted with a very advanced AESA radar that is thought to be one of the better units currently in service and in theory is probably superior to the older, mechanically-scanned radar used by the Typhoon (if you want to make a claim that the current Typhoon radar is cutting edge, why are the Brits pushing so hard to field an AESA radar for this aircraft?). So in theory, with a superior radar, could you at least entertain the possibility that an F-15 just might be superior to a Typhoon under certain BVR scenarios? Or it that just completely unthinkable? If you can't even consider such a possability, maybe you are the one with nationalistic bias? Well, acording to Selex, the maker of the Typhoon's radar, the current mechanically scanned Captor radar is actually superior to first generation AESA radars. It is the most advanced mechanically scanned radar in the world and can hold its own against the F-15' new AESA radar. This is not fanboy BS, just what Selex said : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ila-2008-aesa-radar-solution-now-for-typhoons-224274/ I agree that an AESA-equipped F-15C is a whole different animal though. My guess is that the Eagles during the 2 vs 8 engagement were still equipped with the older mechanically scanned APG-63(v)1 radars. I doubt that two Typhoons could have dominated an engagement against 8 AESA-equipped F-15Cs. On a 2 vs 2 engagement, maybe, but against 8 ? That seems very unlikely. the F22 yes, the other two. Fat chance gary So, according to you, the only aircraft out there that can kill a F-15, is the Raptor ? Thanks for proving my point about butthurt Americans btw. Edited May 2, 2012 by ST21 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gonzalo Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 A NSFW song about how certain aircraft have certain desirable elements: Where do you get this stuff from? I am completely amazed by all the diifferent things that get posted on this site! I love it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) I dont know all the details about the engagement for the simple reason they werent unveiled. All i know is that this engagement happened. The news about it was in fact first posted on the Eurofighter official blog so it looks pretty legit to me... http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2010/01/eurofighter-boasts-usaf-f-15-k.html So thats a story about a blog about a claim. Well, acording to Selex, the maker of the Typhoon's radar, the current mechanically scanned Captor radar is actually superior to first generation AESA radars. It is the most advanced mechanically scanned radar in the world and can hold its own against the F-15' new AESA radar. This is not fanboy BS, just what Selex said : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ila-2008-aesa-radar-solution-now-for-typhoons-224274/ That is amazing! You mean the people who build and sell the product think it is superior to its rivals!? No way! Im not trying to get into this international Rooster measuring contest, (been enjoying the show) but you have to have better sources when you are trying to make a claim... Lately it seems like the Rafale is getting the best of the Typhoon anyway Edited May 2, 2012 by TaiidanTomcat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sunliner Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I'm sure I'll be corrected by the masses if I'm wrong (and that's fair enough) but I don't think there have ever been any A2A shootdowns of F-16's, F-14's, A-10's either, and only one F/A-18 lost to another jet since it came on the scene. Of course,all the above have been 'killed' in exercises. So the F-15 is in good company for sure, but not particularly special. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I'm sure I'll be corrected by the masses if I'm wrong (and that's fair enough) but I don't think there have ever been any A2A shootdowns of F-16's, F-14's, A-10's either, and only one F/A-18 lost to another jet since it came on the scene. Of course,all the above have been 'killed' in exercises. So the F-15 is in good company for sure, but not particularly special. It depends on who you ask. A lot of Mid east countries have made claims on Israeli F-16s and Iranian Tomcats. both those nations are pretty secretive so who knows? I think what makes the Eagles tally so impressive to people is just how lopsided it is. One could also claim that the F-15 being an Air superiority fighter, "shoots em down so you don't have to" F-14s were largely sidelined in the 1991 war. and the skies heavily cleared by F-15s in most conflicts since. So the bad guys arent getting a lot of cracks at the A-10s, F-16s, and Hornets etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Stark Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 That is amazing! You mean the people who build and sell the product think it is superior to its rivals!? No way! They say the best weapon is the one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree, I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once. That's how dad did it, and it's worked out pretty well so far. To peace! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ST21 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 So thats a story about a blog about a claim. Somehow, i doubt that you would contest the claim if the F-15s had been on the winning side... That is amazing! You mean the people who build and sell the product think it is superior to its rivals!? No way! Im not trying to get into this international Rooster measuring contest, (been enjoying the show) but you have to have better sources when you are trying to make a claim... They know the capabilities of the Captor more than anyone else. They made the damn thing after all. Just because you didnt like what you read doesnt mean they are lying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Well, acording to Selex, the maker of the Typhoon's radar, the current mechanically scanned Captor radar is actually superior to first generation AESA radars. It is the most advanced mechanically scanned radar in the world and can hold its own against the F-15' new AESA radar. This is not fanboy BS, just what Selex said Thanks for proving my point about butthurt Americans btw. As someone else noted, if the best you can do to prove a point is to regurgitate the manufacturer's PR, you really need to call it quits. Do you really think Selex would state anything else? Really? They could just be re-selling ancient radars pulled from Her Majesty's retired Phantoms and they are still going to tell the world that their product is absolutely the best out there. I have to ask (again) if this radar is really so awesome, then why are the Brits pushing so hard to field an AESA unit? Also again, you seems you have to get a snarky dig in about Americans. I'm not even sure how one could be sure what the nationality of that poster was. He could be a Yuropeen who's come to the conclusion that the F-22 is simply the best fighter in the world and the F-15 is second best. I do agree that he was a bit off-base in his comments but I don't think it's necessary to slag a particular nationality. BTW, what exactly is a "butthurt American"? It sounds like someone who needs to get checked by a doctor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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