FYI F-22 on 60 Minutes Tonight

[otis252]

Hey Guys, just a heads up. 60 Minutes is running a piece tonight on "F-22 pilots speaking out on the fighter jet". That should be very interesting. Tonight on CBS at 7:00 EST.

Chuck

[Holeshot]

Oh, I'm sure it will be a full evaluation of the facts at hand, and not a typical one-sided, statements-out-of-context hatchet job that 60 Minutes always does on anything related to military.

Right.

[Tony Stark]

I'm going to go get some shawarma instead. I've never tried it.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Tony Stark

[11bee]

The entire F-22 / O2 fiasco is already being discussed here:

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=241974&st=60

Although heads should role for the AF's handling of this issue, I still have some real issues with active duty US military officers refusing an assignment and then going on national TV to air their issues.

It kinda sets a precedent for the next 19-year old Army PFC who has an problem taking a particular MRAP outside the wire in Afghanistan.

[spejic]

Oh, I'm sure it will be a full evaluation of the facts at hand, and not a typical one-sided, statements-out-of-context hatchet job that 60 Minutes always does on anything related to military.

That's totally unfair. They do that to non-military topics as well.

[Scooby]

The entire F-22 / O2 fiasco is already being discussed here:

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=241974&st=60

Although heads should role for the AF's handling of this issue, I still have some real issues with active duty US military officers refusing an assignment and then going on national TV to air their issues.

It kinda sets a precedent for the next 19-year old Army PFC who has an problem taking a particular MRAP outside the wire in Afghanistan.

I agree, but something is wrong here and I think it involved politics. The USAF didn't want to admit there was a fault with the aircraft because they wanted to keep producing the jet. So a pilot not at fault was blamed for the accident and the fault was not fixed. Nor is the problem being looked at.

Through all of this the production line was still shut down. I am of the opinion the USAF didn't want to give the politicians any ammo to shut down the production. But it all backfired on those who fly the jet.

[toadwbg]

I'm going to go get some shawarma instead. I've never tried it.

Puny Human!

[toadwbg]

That's totally unfair. They do that to non-military topics as well.

I used to like 60- minutes back in the day (80s '& 90s) when journalism still had some integrity left.

[Tony Stark]

Puny Human!

Dr. Banner. Your work on anti-electron collisions is unparalleled. And I'm a huge fan of the way you lose control and turn into an enormous green rage monster.

[Johnopfor]

Hey Guys, just a heads up. 60 Minutes is running a piece tonight on "F-22 pilots speaking out on the fighter jet". That should be very interesting. Tonight on CBS at 7:00 EST.

Chuck

WOW! 60 Minuites is still on the air?

It kinda shows you how much I pay attention to Network programming and how much I think it sucks.

Besides, ABC's Nightline took it's shots at the Raptor last week.....so I guess it NBC's turn to unzip it's fly and take it's turn.......

[Jay Chladek]

Well, all things considered, IMHO 60 Minutes still does good journalism compared to many of the other "so-called" news shows. For instance, Dateline seems to have de-evolved into "lets talk about a murder case for ONE hour, spending 5 minutes of each 10 minute segment AFTER a commercial telling you what we talked about ten minutes ago when we could tell EVERYTHING we have about it in one 15 minute segment" to the pedophile of the week ambush with hidden camera angle. The 60 Minutes department is a bit different from the standard CBS news desk and IMHO, it shows in the quality of their work. Do they always get it right? Nope. But I think they have a better batting average than most anyone else out there and they don't just pick the sensationalist stories like some of the other news programs.

I only caught the tail end of the report (I'll watch the online replay when I can) and hearing about the number of pilots who are saying they don't want to find the jet I find a bit shocking. We aren't talking a bunch of limp wristed individuals here. Fighter pilots have some of the biggest egos on the planet and are supremely confident. Plus, many pilots who get Raptor assignments are Academy graduates, men who have had the culture of what it means to be a soldier ingrained in them for many years even before they get to pilot training. For them to say they don't want to fly the plane is a big decision and that tells me this whole situation is way bigger than our little discussion about something most of us no nothing about (and those who really do know something can't talk due to security oaths). These guys know they are probably sticking their careers in the shreader for talking on camera (even with the help of a law which supposedly helps protect whistleblowers), so they have some guts for coming forward. Regardless of the outcome, that alone should count for something.

Here's a link to the report BTW (you watch it and you tell me these pilots don't think there is a problem.)

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7407680n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox

Edited May 7, 2012 by Jay Chladek

[Viasistina]

Oh, I'm sure it will be a full evaluation of the facts at hand, and not a typical one-sided, statements-out-of-context hatchet job that 60 Minutes always does on anything related to military.

Right.

Yeah. 60 minutes hates America.

[TaiidanTomcat]

Well, all things considered, IMHO 60 Minutes still does good journalism compared to many of the other "so-called" news shows. For instance, Dateline seems to have de-evolved into "lets talk about a murder case for ONE hour, spending 5 minutes of each 10 minute segment AFTER a commercial telling you what we talked about ten minutes ago when we could tell EVERYTHING we have about it in one 15 minute segment" to the pedophile of the week ambush with hidden camera angle. The 60 Minutes department is a bit different from the standard CBS news desk and IMHO, it shows in the quality of their work. Do they always get it right? Nope. But I think they have a better batting average than most anyone else out there and they don't just pick the sensationalist stories like some of the other news programs.

60 minutes is the same crap in a slicker package. Dateline was always crap. Comparing it to dateline is a pretty low bar. OTOH 60 minutes use to have a guy whos weekly job it was to make the "have you ever noticed?" observational "comedy" that only the people over 92 years old thought was funny. "I have noticed the envelops are weird, Andy!!"

[toadwbg]

Heck, Andy Rooney was one of the things I liked about 60-minutes! He was a surly, grumpy old goat but loved his perspective on stuff. Guy was a journalist in WW2.

RIP Andy.

[Shawn C.]

Yeah. 60 minutes hates America.

Of course they do, they're not Fox. ;)

[Camus272]

Well, at least the 60 Minutes report was better than the Nightline one, I already sent a letter to ABC about a number of misrepresented facts. Hopefully this publicity will kick the Air Force into actually doing something about the problem, although I still Lockheed is getting off way too easy on this one.

Brian

[jester292]

Oh, I'm sure it will be a full evaluation of the facts at hand, and not a typical one-sided, statements-out-of-context hatchet job that 60 Minutes always does on anything related to military.

Right.

It's not just related to Military. It's anything that fits their political agenda. I'll leave the politics aside, but they ran a 60 Minutes special on Nuclear Power and interviewed my uncle (now retired VP of a Nuclear Power plant). He showed me the actual film and context 60 Minutes gathered, then showed the finished product, all cut, choped, sound edited, and all the other "editing" they do. NOT EVEN CLOSE. They spun everything they could, and left out everything they couldn't.

"News" in this country is a big joke on anyone not smart enough to know where to get unbiased information.

Aaron

[11bee]

It's not just related to Military. It's anything that fits their political agenda. I'll leave the politics aside, but they ran a 60 Minutes special on Nuclear Power and interviewed my uncle (now retired VP of a Nuclear Power plant). He showed me the actual film and context 60 Minutes gathered, then showed the finished product, all cut, choped, sound edited, and all the other "editing" they do. NOT EVEN CLOSE. They spun everything they could, and left out everything they couldn't.

"News" in this country is a big joke on anyone not smart enough to know where to get unbiased information.

Aaron

I'm not sure on this. The 60-Minutes episode pretty much let the two Raptor pilots speak for themselves. Not sure how they could have spun this, the facts kinda speak for themselves and it wasn't like these guys are marginal characters with an axe to grind, they both seem to have outstanding records, one guy was awarded the DFC! If anything, the episode could have been harder on the AF (blaming the pilot for the last fatal crash and then retracting the blame after coming in for severe flak over it).

My only real issue is with military officers appearing in full uniform to publicly state they were refusing their assignment. Sets a real bad precedent if you ask me....

Edited May 7, 2012 by 11bee

[Jay Chladek]

One thing I noticed in the whole report is not one mention was made of the Alaska crash, just the incident where a tree got clipped. They could have tied both incidents together, but they did not (possibly because the Alaska crash was attributed to something likely different from the other OBOGS failures).

For some of you guys who would rather attack the presentation, why not just watch the damn report and listen to these interviews and judge what was said strictly on that (I provided a link). It is pretty bad when a pilot AND his wingman are both up flying and BOTH experience hypoxia on two different jets at the same time (and even worse when one of them has it so bad he can't remember where his emergency oxygen pin is). The 60 Minutes Overtime is also a good brief watch in talking about how hard it was for these guys to come forward and what had to be done before they did come forward.

[Kei Lau]

I'm not sure on this. The 60-Minutes episode pretty much let the two Raptor pilots speak for themselves. Not sure how they could have spun this, the facts kinda speak for themselves and it wasn't like these guys are marginal characters with an axe to grind, they both seem to have outstanding records, one guy was awarded the DFC! If anything, the episode could have been harder on the AF (blaming the pilot for the last fatal crash and then retracting the blame after coming in for severe flak over it).

My only real issue with military officers appearing in full uniform to publicly state they were refusing their assignment. Sets a real bad precedent if you ask me....

It is very disheartening to see so many posts on this forum from those who showed no concern of the men and women who serve this country. The posters just used the "60 minutes" to blast the media who reports on issues that may put our men in uniform in danger.

Capt. Jeff Haney who died in a F-22 crash in 2010, Capt. Josh Wilson and Maj. Jereme Gordon are all accomplished veterans of the AF. They came forward under the whistle blower protection of Rep. Adam Kinzinger, who is a Republican from IL and a former AF pilot himself. You can hardly call this a left wing libral conspiracy against the military.

Listen to the 60 minutes segment and hear what Jennifer Haney said for her brother near the end. I agreed with 11bee that it is a real concern that Capt. Josh Wilson and Maj. Jereme Gordon went to the press? Why Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill) could not help them to get the hearing they wanted for their fellow pilots? The question is where the blame of this break down lies?

It would be very nice to hear from Lockheed Martin directly on what they did and are doing to minimize the danger to our pilots who fly F-22. So far, they just keep saying how cool the F-22 is and nothing else according to news reports.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Kei Lau

[TaiidanTomcat]

It's not just related to Military. It's anything that fits their political agenda. I'll leave the politics aside, but they ran a 60 Minutes special on Nuclear Power and interviewed my uncle (now retired VP of a Nuclear Power plant). He showed me the actual film and context 60 Minutes gathered, then showed the finished product, all cut, choped, sound edited, and all the other "editing" they do. NOT EVEN CLOSE. They spun everything they could, and left out everything they couldn't.

"News" in this country is a big joke on anyone not smart enough to know where to get unbiased information.

Aaron

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAe3FpLGvBY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLF369FE93F23F70DF

I watched it and there are just little thing that 60 minutes did that were kinda shady. Pointing out that one of the pilots had his pay cut (I assume flight pay, because he is after all, no longer flying) And forcing him to have a hearing, I'm assuming he has to defend his position formally. It makes it sound like a bit of a witch hunt.

60 minutes also declined to mention that it is important to keep current with the type and that there is a capability gap without the F-22. They made it sound like the USAF just said "oh well" and ungrounded the aircraft when there were other factors to consider. Aircraft also need to be used. They are not built to sit there and they begin to develop issues from under use. So they kind of left out certain details that may help add a little context.

My favorite typical pilot response:

"would you want to ground the fleet?

"I want it fixed!!"

Ah yes, thank you pilot. "I want my jet fixed with minimal effort/understanding from me" could be a pilot motto. "I don't even know what the hell is broken but fix it god dammit" Fix it with your magic wrench wand!!

[11bee]

My favorite typical pilot response:

"would you want to ground the fleet?

"I want it fixed!!"

Ah yes, thank you pilot. "I want my jet fixed with minimal effort/understanding from me" could be a pilot motto. "I don't even know what the hell is broken but fix it god dammit" Fix it with your magic wrench wand!!

So all of the scientists and engineers can't figure out the problem but the pilots should?

Aircraft need to be used but how many more near misses do we need before another $179 million dollar jet is a smoking hole in the ground (or worse - a smoking hole in an apartment complex somewhere in VA)?

It's their *ss up there flying the damned thing, incident after incident, coming back with coughs, spitting up black crud and other respiratory issues, while the AF tries to spin out positive PR that the problem is "being managed with minimal risk". It seems like the only entities that have minimal exposure at this point are the AF brass and Lockheed Martin.

I think these guys should have handed in their wings and stayed off of national TV but regardless, they have an extremely valid point and (IMO) made the right decision to cease flying.

[TaiidanTomcat]

So all of the scientists and engineers can't figure out the problem but the pilots should?

They should realize its not an easy, and even that pilot essentially said he wouldn't ground the fleet again.

Aircraft need to be used but how many more near misses do we need before another $179 million dollar jet is a smoking hole in the ground (or worse - a smoking hole in an apartment complex somewhere in VA)?

Its all risk John. All of it. in the last month we have had a F-15, 16 and 18 fall out of the sky. Its all a calculated risk. and what constitutes excessive risk, will vary depending on who you ask. any aircraft that flies carries a risk of becoming a smoking hole that kills people on the ground.

Edited May 7, 2012 by TaiidanTomcat

[otis252]

Hey guys,

I don't get something. What is so different about the F-22 OBOGS system and say a F-15 for instance? Can't they just use a derivative of that system? I guess it's not that simple but could someone explain it like they are talking to a sixth grader? LOL

Chuck

[11bee]

Hey guys,

I don't get something. What is so different about the F-22 OBOGS system and say a F-15 for instance? Can't they just use a derivative of that system? I guess it's not that simple but could someone explain it like they are talking to a sixth grader? LOL

Chuck

Not being an engineer, I think you have hit on the million dollar question. From what I understand, there is nothing different in concept between this unit and the ones in other modern US jets. That is why everyone is struggling with finding a root cause to this problem.

The only difference is that the F-22 operates approx 15-20k higher than most other jets, so that environment is MUCH more demanding. I've yet to see any summary of these events. I'd be curious as to what part of the flight regime most of these occurred. The AF hasn't exactly gone out of their way to provide info on this issue. I guess if they don't talk about it and keep the jets flying, there is no problem.