Presidential access to classified material

[DutyCat]

I was just thinking....

If you remember, in the movie ID4, the president did not know about the aliens in Area 51. When asked why he was never briefed, he was told by his National Security Adviser, "plausible deniability."

I didn't really think about it then, but I was watching a show on Area 51 tonight and they talked about how the people who worked there were compartmentalized and only had access to classified material involving their specific program. They also had a clip of Bill Clinton saying in a speech, "If the Air Force did recover an alien spacecraft with bodies, they didn't tell me about it, and I want to know."

When I was on active duty, an appropriate security clearance and a "need to know" were both required for access. So if "need to know" is required, I wonder if there if there are classified programs that even presidents are never briefed on unless a "need to know" situation arises. These would be things like black projects, extremely sensitive research, or operations.

Sticking with Area 51, lets say there was an alien spacecraft recovery with bodies in 1947. As it was an emergent event, I am assuming the president would have been briefed at the time. Lets say that the president classifies it super secret squirrel and decides that it is not in the best interest of the United States to EVER let it become public knowledge that there has been an alien visitation. So it is kept buried deep in a secure facility, perhaps to be reviewed for release in 100 years or so.

Anyone have any insight or thoughts?

So, to be clear, this thread is not about the legitimacy of the Roswell alien conspiracy. It is about U.S. policy concerning presidential and congressional access to classified material.

Edited May 27, 2012 by DutyCat

[Devilleader501]

Pondering this Question. I would say even the supreme of supreme leaders know of whats coming and don't want to tell us because of rioting and so forth. I would think that even the President even in extreme circumstances knows whats going on, weather they are allowed to visit and see for themselves is a whole different ballgame. TOP SECRET is still TOP SECRET and even the President has not only TOP SECRET clearance but also the need to know. Why would DOD withhold info if a great Gallactic Strike were to unfold and tell everyone its the end of the World. Basically If aliens do exist and come to this planet first off they are light years more advanced than us. 2 They wont be here to be friends. and 3 we wont know about it until they make landfall and start taking our planet over. Personally I don't even believe in aliens but just me two cents.

[Kevan Vogler]

I might be off the mark on this in America's case. However; if I look at how things go in other Parliamentary or congressional governments, then the actual power of the head of state is largely symbolic and the bulk of decision making is done at the ministerial level.

The head of state, be it a president or prime minister, doesn't make all that many decisions and is largely there to sign papers and provide a tangible image of a leader figure.

Chances are very good that the president or prime minister in such a system knows relatively little about the specifics of certain issues and depends a great deal on the knowledge of advisiors and those holding the relevant governmental portfolio more than most of the public suspect.

[-Neu-]

Based on the 1947 National Security Act, the President is the supreme head of the Government of the United States and thus nothing can be hidden from him. From the preamble:

So in law. The items relating to sections 1002 and 1003 in the table of contents probably

should appear at the end of subtitle A of title X. See the amendment made by section 612( B )

of Public Law 108–487 (118 Stat. 3959).

In enacting this legislation, it is the

intent of Congress to provide a comprehensive program for the fu-

ture security of the United States; to provide for the establishment

of integrated policies and procedures for the departments, agencies,

and functions of the Government relating to the national security;

to provide a Department of Defense, including the three military

Departments of the Army, the Navy (including naval aviation and

the United States Marine Corps), and the Air Force under the

direction, authority, and control of the Secretary of Defense

The Secretary reports to the President... no matter what he must be informed of all the goings on with his department. So there really isn't a legal basis for the executive branches to hide something from the president, even if classified by a predecessor. There is just no legal foundation for this to exist, and it runs contrary to the spirit of the laws and civillian control. Failure to inform is a breach of law. And lets be honest, The government is pretty **** poor at keeping secrets as well.

Certainly the President can't fully know everything going on in the executive, past and present. There are practical limits to what he can know. The bureaucracy will hum along unless someone will ask. However its really tough to hide something "big." He will know the general contours of the government and its history.

However the idea of subordinates carrying out unsavoury actions on the basis of plausible deniability has been kinda blown up in the media/pop culture, largely as a result of Iran Contra Affair and Watergate. I think in most cases where one might claim it, the President has directed their subordinates to carry out some sort of action (certainly in Watergate, less so in Iran Contra) which they did without informing the president about its details. You can clearly see the boundaries of this when North and Poindexter were arraigned for their involvement with the Contras: they did it far beyond the boundaries of what was originally agreed to.

Hope that helps.

Edited May 27, 2012 by -Neu-

[MattC]

It is about U.S. policy concerning presidential and congressional access to classified material

My guess would be that the MOST sensitive material wouldn't get as far as getting to an official classification. I find it rather inplausible that the intelligence services would go running to the President waving a piece of paper saying "look what we found out". Rather, I suspect that particular salient points or nuggets of information are passed on, but there will doubtless be some which is retained, or at least, released in a controlled manner at another time or over a period of time.

[Andre]

Personally I don't even believe in aliens but just me two cents.

With the vast, *vast* number of stars in the galaxy, life existing just on this one planet would seem statistically impossible.

Whether aliens have actually visited Earth is another question entirely, in view of the logistics involved.

cheers,

Andre

Edited May 27, 2012 by Andre

[Raymond]

there were 'soviet aliens' at area 51 :D

[Berkut]

With the vast, *vast* number of stars in the galaxy, life existing just on this one planet would seem statistically impossible.

Whether aliens have actually visited Earth is another question entirely, in view of the logistics involved.

cheers,

Andre

Indeed.

Lets do some simple math. There are many many billions of galaxies, lets say 200 billion. That is 2*10¹¹ or 200000000000 galaxies. Then lets say each of them contains 10¹¹ of stars. That makes it 2*10²² stars. or 20000000000000000000000 stars. Even if there is life only on every 100 million solar systems that still makes it 2*10¹⁴ solar systems with life on them. Lets imagine every 100 million of those are intelligent life, as in evolved beyond us. (think about how much we have achieved in last 1000 years or so, imagine if some life had 5000 years headstart...) That still makes it two millions of very intelligent lifeforms/solar systems. IMHO, thinking we are alone is either connected to ignorance or religion...

Now, i doubt they have visited us. I know if i was "the aliens" i wouldn't even bother poking us with a stick.

[Jennings]

Technically the President *can* have access to any classified information the government possesses. In reality, he/she doesn't, as the President doesn't need to know everything there is to know (nobody does). But if there's a reason to brief the POTUS on something, nothing is held back.

[DutyCat]

Based on the 1947 National Security Act, the President is the supreme head of the Government of the United States and thus nothing can be hidden from him. From the preamble:

So in law. The items relating to sections 1002 and 1003 in the table of contents probably

should appear at the end of subtitle A of title X. See the amendment made by section 612( B )

of Public Law 108–487 (118 Stat. 3959).

In enacting this legislation, it is the

intent of Congress to provide a comprehensive program for the fu-

ture security of the United States; to provide for the establishment

of integrated policies and procedures for the departments, agencies,

and functions of the Government relating to the national security;

to provide a Department of Defense, including the three military

Departments of the Army, the Navy (including naval aviation and

the United States Marine Corps), and the Air Force under the

direction, authority, and control of the Secretary of Defense

The Secretary reports to the President... no matter what he must be informed of all the goings on with his department. So there really isn't a legal basis for the executive branches to hide something from the president, even if classified by a predecessor. There is just no legal foundation for this to exist, and it runs contrary to the spirit of the laws and civillian control. Failure to inform is a breach of law. And lets be honest, The government is pretty **** poor at keeping secrets as well.

Certainly the President can't fully know everything going on in the executive, past and present. There are practical limits to what he can know. The bureaucracy will hum along unless someone will ask. However its really tough to hide something "big." He will know the general contours of the government and its history.

However the idea of subordinates carrying out unsavoury actions on the basis of plausible deniability has been kinda blown up in the media/pop culture, largely as a result of Iran Contra Affair and Watergate. I think in most cases where one might claim it, the President has directed their subordinates to carry out some sort of action (certainly in Watergate, less so in Iran Contra) which they did without informing the president about its details. You can clearly see the boundaries of this when North and Poindexter were arraigned for their involvement with the Contras: they did it far beyond the boundaries of what was originally agreed to.

Hope that helps.

Well, I am sorry but in reading that one does not infer presidential full disclosure of everything no matter what. Also, the thrust of this thread was not intended to be about inappropriate use of classification to cover illegal activities. However, now that you brought it up and since it is related, one could argue the case that, based on national security requirements, a two tiered legal system might exist, the second tier being outside of public view. That is, "the government is authorized to conduct covert activities that, on the surface of which, the general public, not having access to sensitive material, might find unacceptable, but that, agents of the duly elected government determine are vital to national security."

In the case of Iran Contra, there was a security breach and when something becomes public, then maybe the "rules" are such that "public" laws then have to be followed in order to maintain the appearance of transparency.

I also disagree about the government's ability to keep secrets. They can and do. The security breaches we hear about are probably the exceptions. I think there is a lot more going on than we have a clue about. And that is how it should be, because in this day and age, the second something becomes public, it becomes political and is compromised.

Technically the President *can* have access to any classified information the government possesses. In reality, he/she doesn't, as the President doesn't need to know everything there is to know (nobody does). But if there's a reason to brief the POTUS on something, nothing is held back.

I tend to agree. The two basic requirements to gain access are clearance and need to know. I can think of a whole bunch of stuff a president would not need to know, including the aforementioned aliens in a desert vault somewhere. Again, not that I believe they have them....I am just using it as an example. The president is only in government for a short period of time. Even within agencies, there are files that might be closed, the specifics of which are kept secure, unless certain conditions trigger the "need to know" criteria. The really sensitive stuff might be exempt from the normal periodic review and declassification process.

Edited May 27, 2012 by DutyCat

[MattC]

Now, i doubt they have visited us. I know if i was "the aliens" i wouldn't even bother poking us with a stick

Also, given the vast distances in space, the nearest planet supporting intelligent life could be thousands of light years away, so even if they did want to see if we were interesting, there would be no point in them scanning for radio or other transmission, as in their time frame, we would be living in caves, so there would be nothing coming from Earth for them to even consider that there is anything here.

[DutyCat]

Indeed.

Lets do some simple math. There are many many billions of galaxies, lets say 200 billion. That is 2*10¹¹ or 200000000000 galaxies. Then lets say each of them contains 10¹¹ of stars. That makes it 2*10²² stars. or 20000000000000000000000 stars. Even if there is life only on every 100 million solar systems that still makes it 2*10¹⁴ solar systems with life on them. Lets imagine every 100 million of those are intelligent life, as in evolved beyond us. (think about how much we have achieved in last 1000 years or so, imagine if some life had 5000 years headstart...) That still makes it two millions of very intelligent lifeforms/solar systems. IMHO, thinking we are alone is either connected to ignorance or religion...

Now, i doubt they have visited us. I know if i was "the aliens" i wouldn't even bother poking us with a stick.

If your really want to explore this very open ended subject, then the math is not so simple because of the variables involved. The number of planets with intelligent, communicative life could be anywhere from one to billions, as noted in Carl Sagan's exploration of

, from Cosmos. Edited May 27, 2012 by DutyCat

[Phantom ordie]

Nor does a race car crew chief let the car owner know everything,

[Tony Stark]

POTUS knows as much of what goes on inside Area 51 as he knows what happens inside Lockheed's Fort Worth plant because Area 51 is privately owned and operated. The government quietly put it up for sale after all the publicity around it went mainstream and I bought it. We currently rent out most of the real estate as research/testing/manufacturing space to a variety of clients.

C'mon, where else would these have been built?

[Stephen]

I'd like to bid a warm welcome to the guys from the National Security Agency who are probably reading this thread.

Stephen :D

[Berkut]

If your really want to explore this very open ended subject, then the math is not so simple because of the variables involved. The number of planets with intelligent, communicative life could be anywhere from one to billions, as noted in Carl Sagan's exploration of

, from Cosmos.

In other news, sun goes up and down every day. Sorry, but i do realize there is huge variables to consider. My "calculation" was just to show pure numbers, not chances of intelligent life.

[Dave Williams]

I tend to agree. The two basic requirements to gain access are clearance and need to know. I can think of a whole bunch of stuff a president would not need to know, including the aforementioned aliens in a desert vault somewhere. Again, not that I believe they have them....I am just using it as an example. The president is only in government for a short period of time. Even within agencies, there are files that might be closed, the specifics of which are kept secure, unless certain conditions trigger the "need to know" criteria. The really sensitive stuff might be exempt from the normal periodic review and declassification process.

If you are inferring that there are things that secrets that can be withheld from the president, I don't agree with that. I agree that he doesn't know everything, and there are many things that they don't come up and volunteer unasked, but I'm pretty sure that if he asks a direct question regarding information, he would get it, regardless of the level of classification. Agencies may decide he doesn't "need to know" on the basis of volunteering info, but I'm sure that if a president chooses to ask a question, that is an automatic "need to know".

[vince14]

"Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering." - Arthur C. Clarke

Vince

[fulcrum1]

I think it's better we don't know what POTUS knows and doesn't know. Makes for better movies and stories. However, there have been plenty of folks who have tried to hide the truth or twist so the President makes a call that isn't based on the most accurate info.

[DutyCat]

In other news, sun goes up and down every day. Sorry, but i do realize there is huge variables to consider. My "calculation" was just to show pure numbers, not chances of intelligent life.

Copy all. Noted.

[DutyCat]

If you are inferring that there are things that secrets that can be withheld from the president, I don't agree with that. I agree that he doesn't know everything, and there are many things that they don't come up and volunteer unasked, but I'm pretty sure that if he asks a direct question regarding information, he would get it, regardless of the level of classification. Agencies may decide he doesn't "need to know" on the basis of volunteering info, but I'm sure that if a president chooses to ask a question, that is an automatic "need to know".

I really have no idea. I am just throwing it out there for discussion. If the same rule applies to him as everyone else, there is a lot he would not have access to unless a decision had to be made which involved the information. I wonder how we could find out what the real deal is.

[Tony Stark]

"Look into the light Mr. President."

[Wayne S]

I really have no idea. I am just throwing it out there for discussion. If the same rule applies to him as everyone else, there is a lot he would not have access to unless a decision had to be made which involved the information. I wonder how we could find out what the real deal is.

Problem most of the time is, The President is not technically the one deciding on what is significant or insignificant information that the prez should know, others are.

Frankly I worry more about what others deem/judge to be insignificant information, that does not get past on to the prez that might have a high significance, be it thought to be top secret or not.

I guess one can say through history significant/insignificant information past or not past on has been a crap shoot even before Washington took up office.

In other news, sun goes up and down every day. Sorry, but i do realize there is huge variables to consider. My "calculation" was just to show pure numbers, not chances of intelligent life.

If one was to play a numbers game, the odds get worse has times goes by, not the other way around. Same could be said for finding Bigfoot.

Interesting thing about alien wish-fullers who's thoughts about them being out there?

People have this odd thought, they must be more advanced then us, "yet" keeping religion out of it. Tho keeping singularities in it, big bang and time (Noted math does not like singularities).

Aliens would technically be of the same age as us, Is that understandable? Light years blaa blaa is merely an observational standpoint not really an advancement in time its self.

Frankly I would find it easier to believe a spec or what have you came from the earth and became a part of another entity/planet then to believe there is another earth like planet or alien life out there. The possibility of alien life without Earths help is beyond a mathematical equation.

[vince14]

Frankly I would find it easier to believe a spec or what have you came from the earth and became a part of another entity/planet then to believe there is another earth like planet or alien life out there. The possibility of alien life without Earths help is beyond a mathematical equation.

Erm, not really...

10 Billion Earth-Like Planets May Exist in Our Galaxy - and there are estimated to be more than 170 billion galaxies in the observable universe. Which, put another way, suggests that the chances of Earth being the only Earth-Like planet in the observable universe potentially capable of supporting life as we know it is 1 in 1.7 trillion...which is not great odds if you're a betting man.

Even if only 0.1% of these Earth-Like planets orbit in the Habitable Zone from their local star to support life as we know it, then that's still 1,700,000,000 planets. Of course, given that the universe is estimated to be 13.75 billion years old and that mammal species have an estimated average lifespan of between 1 and 10 million years, the chances are that the number of intelligent, carbon-based mammal species alive at any one point in time is quite small. But who knows what is needed to sustain intelligent life? We used to think that all life depended on light, but then we found species at the bottom of the ocean who never get any light at all.

That's not to say that little green men are visiting us. The Speed of Light is a universal constant and so it would take over 20 years to reach our nearest known potential Earth-Like planet, Gliese 581 g, travelling at the Speed of Light (which is not possible).

Vince

[Devilleader501]

WOW Vince I dont think I could have put it better myself. Everyone has to remember that under these same circumstances If little green men are looking at our planet. Which I have never had the privilege to see yet, that they are hundreds if not thousands of years more technologically advanced than us. For them to make it to us before we can make it to them is something I don't like to think about. That would be Star Wars in reverse for us Puny little Mortals. Either way I think Obama and every other Pres has every right and Clearance to see anything and everything he see's fit. Weather it be Area 51 or Nasa the Pres has a right to know. Oh and he holds the Highest Classified Clearance Known to man so that helps.